Christian Pipe Smokers
  Login or Register
Links
Site
· Home
· RSS Feed
· Contact Mods
· Contact Admins
Community
· Forums
Members List
Private Messages
· Donate
Account
· Your Account
· Edit Profile

Search CPS


 
Christian Pipe Smokers :: View topic - Fatherhood - It doesn't mean what you think it means

View next topic
View previous topic
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
Rusty
Minister of the Gideons
Minister of the Gideons


Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 17421
Location: Beelzebub's Rare Tobacco Emporium

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:39 pm Reply with quote Back to top

TNLawPiper wrote:
Rusty wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
Brigid wrote:
If the employee needs the pill for medical reasons, then insurance needs to cover it. If it's contraception only, then I'm less vehement about it.


Why?

The government already funds the pill. It's essentially free to so many people that I truly wonder who pays the full, uninsured price for contraceptive pills. Rick Santorum even admits having voted to allow it, after all!

Why can't the government just say "if you pay for contraception (or Plan B, sterilization, etc.) out of your own pocket because your employer doesn't pay for it, we'll give you a dollar-for-dollar tax cut at the end of the year"? That wouldn't force any employer to violate its conscience; instead, it would remove the issue from the employer's purview altogether. No organization's rights would be violated, and contraception would be effectively free* for those who need it and could not otherwise afford it.

Of course, I know why the Obama Administration won't provide such an incentive. The American people wouldn't stand for it. Instead, the government's going to pawn it off on employers, taking for granted that all but the Catholics will either accept it or file it away in their "I Hate Barack" file. Then, the Obama Administration can say "the Catholic Church is anti-woman," people will fall for it, and it will motivate the pro-choice crowd to get out and defeat [The Catholic Church] in November.

I really fail to see how some people cannot grasp the gravity of the government's actions here. Honestly. What would you who defend the governmental mandate say if the government mandated that, because it is harmful to the American workforce to have career-oriented women have children, elective abortions must be covered by all health insurance policies?

*Work with me here.


Here is an article that answers your criticism:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/02/16/testimony-chairman-issa-doesnt-want-you-to-hear

This whole issue is so loaded with politics at this point that it's difficult to sort the real issue from the claims. But this is true of both sides. This one appears to be a genuine experience.

I've been looking for a policy statement, from HHS preferably, that provides information and justification for making it mandatory without copay for all insurance plans. The nearest that I can find is an article announcing the policy from Aug 2011.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/01/obama-birth-control-health-insurance_n_914818.html

Statistics for use or applications of the pill for contraceptive vs noncontraceptive reasons (eg those that Brigid mentions) are here:
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2011/11/15/index.html


Thanks for the links, Rusty.

As to the testimony, I have a few counterpoints. First, the recent "change" in Administration policy has no effect. The requirement that "employers must pay for insurance policies that provides contraceptive services with no copay" is functionally the same as "insurance provides must provide individuals who have employer-funded insurance policies with contraceptives without charging a copay," because, either way, the employer pays for the contraceptives. Whether they pay for them directly or the insurance companies pay for them and then pass on directly those costs to employers by way of increased premiums, employers are still paying for employees' contraceptives. Secondly, I also know women who have endometriosis and polycystic ovarian syndrome. In two case, I know them intimately well. If the federal government provided those who spend $1,000 per year on contraceptives with $1,000 per year at the end of the year by way of tax credits, those women would have $1,000 to spend on the next year's contraceptives (whether they're used as contraceptives should be irrelevant for the purposes of the tax credit policy). Thirdly, the free market can satisfy all of these issues. I really hate that someone has to stand at a pharmacy and learn from the pharmacist that she cannot receive contraceptive pills at a copaid rate, because she should have read her insurance policy beforehand. If Georgetown -- a private university -- won't provide their students with reduced-price contraceptives via insurance, those students should go elsewhere. It's much easier for a student to refuse to pay $60,000 per year to attend Georgetown than to require Georgetown to pay for services that would violate its basic teachings. If it becomes important enough to individuals, they'll refuse to attend Georgetown, and Georgetown will go out of business. Welcome to the Free Market. That's how it works.

Also, The Guttmacher Institute is a pro-contraceptive think tank. I hesitate to believe much of anything that it says.


I'm doing what I can to try sort the chaff from the info.

Sorry about Guttmacher. If you have another source for stats I would be delighted because we should have some idea of who needs these things.
In the mean time the stats look very reasonable and jive with my understanding of noncontraceptive use (even a bit low) so I doubt they're lying.

The free market argument is a good one. Folks should look at total cost. There were people who argued that smokers should be dismissed from employment. That it's a free market and there are less costly employees than smokers. I think I'd rather not have to live that way. But it is the American way.

I feel like Sisyphus with the bloody rock. I'm going to pack it in. I'm not finding it entertaining anymore today. Thanks for the discussion.

_________________
Adam was a sloth and a moron. ~ Del
Adam was a Hermaphrodite. ~ ElgarAlienPooh
We are insane. ~ Del

Last edited by Rusty on Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
TNLawPiper
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards


Joined: Sep 15, 2008
Posts: 12912

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:40 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Bigwill wrote:
We're already there, TNLP. A version of the 'morning after pill' is included as one of the 'medications' that employers are mandated to provide via insurance.


While I understand your point here, I was speaking more along the lines of abortions that require extreme levels of hormones and/or surgical procedures.

To reiterate my question: what would those who support this mandate say if the federal government told Catholic hospitals that they have to pay for these services?
Image

_________________
The preference of the Sun was to the South side of the farm, but I planted North in terracotta pots. Blind as I'd become, I used to wonder where You are. These days, I can't find where You're not.
View user's profile Send private message
FredS
Del Zed Sysiphus Shirk III
Del Zed Sysiphus Shirk III


Joined: Feb 22, 2009
Posts: 11338
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

Wow. I've found myself nodding approval as I've read most of TNLP's posts.

_________________
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine
View user's profile Send private message
Gabriel
Minister of Scrapbooking
Minister of Scrapbooking


Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Posts: 8567
Location: central IL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:25 am Reply with quote Back to top

FredS wrote:
Wow. I've found myself nodding approval as I've read most of TNLP's posts.


It's an odd feeling, isn't it?

_________________
Sola Deo Gloria
View user's profile Send private message
TNLawPiper
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards


Joined: Sep 15, 2008
Posts: 12912

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

Gabriel wrote:
FredS wrote:
Wow. I've found myself nodding approval as I've read most of TNLP's posts.


It's an odd feeling, isn't it?


Don't worry -- it's not your fault. Laughing

_________________
The preference of the Sun was to the South side of the farm, but I planted North in terracotta pots. Blind as I'd become, I used to wonder where You are. These days, I can't find where You're not.
View user's profile Send private message
Bigwill
Near! Far!
Near! Far!


Joined: Aug 30, 2009
Posts: 10000
Location: Woodstock, IL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:51 am Reply with quote Back to top

TNLawPiper wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
FredS wrote:
Wow. I've found myself nodding approval as I've read most of TNLP's posts.

It's an odd feeling, isn't it?

Don't worry -- it's not your fault. Laughing

Unintentional sin?

_________________
And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good? Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
FredS
Del Zed Sysiphus Shirk III
Del Zed Sysiphus Shirk III


Joined: Feb 22, 2009
Posts: 11338
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:58 am Reply with quote Back to top

Bigwill wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
FredS wrote:
Wow. I've found myself nodding approval as I've read most of TNLP's posts.
It's an odd feeling, isn't it?
Don't worry -- it's not your fault. Laughing
Unintentional sin?
'Zactly. Thank goodness God's grace covers me in these unfortunate instances.

In related news, Hitler & Saddam called. Said their water pipes froze last night.

_________________
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine
View user's profile Send private message
tobacco_tenderfoot
Minister of Forward-slashing
Minister of Forward-slashing


Joined: Jan 18, 2010
Posts: 2092

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:30 am Reply with quote Back to top

Rusty wrote:

Here is an article that answers your criticism and possibly Bigwill's too:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/02/16/testimony-chairman-issa-doesnt-want-you-to-hear

This whole issue is so loaded with politics at this point that it's difficult to sort the real issue from the claims. But this is true of both sides. This one appears to be a genuine experience.

I've been looking for a policy statement, from HHS preferably, that provides information and justification for making it mandatory without copay for all insurance plans. The nearest that I can find is an article announcing the policy from Aug 2011.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/01/obama-birth-control-health-insurance_n_914818.html

Statistics for use or applications of the pill for contraceptive vs noncontraceptive reasons (eg those that Brigid mentions) are here:
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2011/11/15/index.html


http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/15/contraception-denigrates-me-as-a-woman/

_________________
Involuntary ignorance is not charged against you as a fault; but your fault is this---you neglect to inquire into the things you are ignorant of. -St. Augustine-
View user's profile Send private message
Rusty
Minister of the Gideons
Minister of the Gideons


Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 17421
Location: Beelzebub's Rare Tobacco Emporium

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:16 am Reply with quote Back to top

tobacco_tenderfoot wrote:
Rusty wrote:

Here is an article that answers your criticism and possibly Bigwill's too:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/02/16/testimony-chairman-issa-doesnt-want-you-to-hear

This whole issue is so loaded with politics at this point that it's difficult to sort the real issue from the claims. But this is true of both sides. This one appears to be a genuine experience.

I've been looking for a policy statement, from HHS preferably, that provides information and justification for making it mandatory without copay for all insurance plans. The nearest that I can find is an article announcing the policy from Aug 2011.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/01/obama-birth-control-health-insurance_n_914818.html

Statistics for use or applications of the pill for contraceptive vs noncontraceptive reasons (eg those that Brigid mentions) are here:
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2011/11/15/index.html


http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/15/contraception-denigrates-me-as-a-woman/


The battle of the blogs... LOL! I liked you better when you were asking me to prove my love for the Roaming Catholic Church.

There are a bunch of bits that feel fuzzy and ill defined to me. They really haven't been in evidence in any of our threads and their absence is a bit confusing for a canuck:

1) If the services and medications are provided free anyway ie they're already funded as TNLP indicated then why does the HHS even have a mandate?

2) Where is the HHS policy statement and how do they justify it? Why is the mandate necessary in their view?

3) Since some of this is about use of the pill who uses it and for what purpose? How many & what proportion fall into the category of noncontraceptive use?

It was a search for facts.

So your blog opinion piece is nice but you're at your best when you're steamed about my love for your church.

You're gonna lose anyway.

_________________
Adam was a sloth and a moron. ~ Del
Adam was a Hermaphrodite. ~ ElgarAlienPooh
We are insane. ~ Del
View user's profile Send private message
Brigid
uh...not a fellow?
uh...not a fellow?


Joined: Aug 10, 2011
Posts: 3928
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Rusty, refresh your spirit and keep coming back, please.
If I'm still here after being called "fatherless womb filth," you can manage this. Deep breaths and hot tea, and I'll see you back here tomorrow.

I have two points to make.
First is about poverty. I live paycheck to paycheck. I quite literally can't afford to buy aspirin, much less $100/month birth control. I can't wait a year to be reimbursed. And, in this economy, I can't turn down a job just because the insurance doesn't provide for everything. There are 4 unemployed people for every job offer.
Folks, I have it easy. While I'm very stressed, I have enough of a support system that I'm not worried about dying from poverty. But many people don't have that. They have serious conditions that need treatment, and there's not always local ways to get the pill for free or cheap--especially in rural areas. If you're struggling to buy food, you can't front the money. And there's not always some quick easy program to get you what you need.

And by the way? If the women do have a local Planned Parenthood where they can see a gynecologist or get the pill, they get screamed at on the walk in. People holding signs shout that they're going to hell for not keeping their baby--despite the fact that the woman in question may just be going for an office visit, not anything pregnancy-related at all.
This happened to someone I know. Just weeks ago. I am not making this up.

Second , women are taught to not make a fuss. Even writing these responses to you has been difficult for me. Every time I press enter I'm afraid I'll have alienated someone, afraid I'll have hurt someone's feelings or pissed them off.

The expected womanly, feminine behavior is graceful, pleasant, and accommodating. Women are taught how to be attentive to others' needs, that they should put others first, that they must be welcoming, that they ought to make others comfortable even if it's not so comfortable for them. And, so often, there isn't balance with those teachings.

Quite regularly, a man will strike up a conversation with a woman he doesn't know. And perhaps she'd like to stop chatting and, say, go on with her life. Perhaps he's obviously creepy, perhaps not. And instead of being able to just say "no" or "no, thank you," she has to make an excuse--and hope he accepts it. Because she feels bad anyway, you know, since she's not doing what he wants, and she believes she ought to do what others want.
And if he's a jerk, and won't accept her excuse, he'll follow her, shouting that she's a b**** for not giving him the time of day . Got that? She's a b**** because he deserves her time and attention, despite being a stranger, just because he says so. That happens all the time. I can't tell you how common it is.

And if he's a dangerous jerk, he won't take no for an answer. And if she pisses him off (because of course it'll be her fault, she pissed him off) , and he hurts her, she will be blamed. Clearly, it wouldn't have happened if she chose another route home / wore a different shirt / hadn't had that glass of wine. It's not like the source of the problem is the abuser. That'd be ridiculous.

So, having been taught all her life to be pleasant and accommodating, and that if she's not accommodating she may be hurt, the woman is suddenly supposed to say no to a man who wants a relationship, or even just sex?

What if he's offended by her saying no? Oh no, did she accidentally lead him on? She didn't mean to flirt, she was just making conversation, maybe she ought to go on a date just so he isn't hurt. But wait, now he's paid for dinner and acting like he expects something. He clearly believes she owes him something. He may ask, he may demand.

Yeah, she ought to say no. But having been taught all her life to be accommodating, is it a surprise if she has trouble?

And if she does end up raped, or coerced into sex by alcohol and guilt which is rape, BTW , she gets blamed. And if she does end up pregnant, whether abandoned by him or stuck in an abusive relationship, she gets blamed. And if she does protest at how things have turned out, no matter how that is, she gets blamed.

So...no. I don't like that article, Colton, and I don't see that good point it's supposedly making. The true situation is far more nuanced than "women aren't being sexy enough" or "men aren't stepping up". And I don't want to play this blame game any more.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
colton
Spiffy Enough
Spiffy Enough


Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Posts: 7840

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Brigid wrote:
So...no. I don't like that article, Colton, and I don't see that good point it's supposedly making. The true situation is far more nuanced than "women aren't being sexy enough" or "men aren't stepping up". And I don't want to play this blame game any more.

Okay, though I do want it noted, for the record, that I didn't say "women aren't being sexy enough" was the cause of this problem.
View user's profile Send private message
Thunktank
Small nuts
Small nuts


Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 14554
Location: Costa Mesa, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Brigid, thank you for your candor. It is good that we hear things from other points of view.
View user's profile Send private message
TNLawPiper
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards


Joined: Sep 15, 2008
Posts: 12912

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Brigid wrote:
Rusty, refresh your spirit and keep coming back, please.
If I'm still here after being called "fatherless womb filth," you can manage this. Deep breaths and hot tea, and I'll see you back here tomorrow.

I have two points to make.
First is about poverty. I live paycheck to paycheck. I quite literally can't afford to buy aspirin, much less $100/month birth control. I can't wait a year to be reimbursed. And, in this economy, I can't turn down a job just because the insurance doesn't provide for everything. There are 4 unemployed people for every job offer.
Folks, I have it easy. While I'm very stressed, I have enough of a support system that I'm not worried about dying from poverty. But many people don't have that. They have serious conditions that need treatment, and there's not always local ways to get the pill for free or cheap--especially in rural areas. If you're struggling to buy food, you can't front the money. And there's not always some quick easy program to get you what you need.

And by the way? If the women do have a local Planned Parenthood where they can see a gynecologist or get the pill, they get screamed at on the walk in. People holding signs shout that they're going to hell for not keeping their baby--despite the fact that the woman in question may just be going for an office visit, not anything pregnancy-related at all.
This happened to someone I know. Just weeks ago. I am not making this up.


Not all hormone pill prescriptions cost $100 per month, do they? Wal-Mart -- which is present in nearly every rural area across the country -- sells Ortho Cycle and Ortho Tricyclen for $9 per pack. I wonder what is the percentage of American women who need hormonal pills for non-contraceptive purposes and cannot either use Ortho Cyclen or Ortho Tricyclen, visit Planned Parenthood, find a Wal-Mart, or afford $9 per month. I find it difficult to believe that one could find many women in America who couldn't employ at least one of those options.

(I do not mean to dismiss the rest of your post, because you addressed some serious issues, but I just wanted to focus in on this point.)

_________________
The preference of the Sun was to the South side of the farm, but I planted North in terracotta pots. Blind as I'd become, I used to wonder where You are. These days, I can't find where You're not.
View user's profile Send private message
Brigid
uh...not a fellow?
uh...not a fellow?


Joined: Aug 10, 2011
Posts: 3928
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:50 am Reply with quote Back to top

Colton wrote:
Brigid wrote:
So...no. I don't like that article, Colton, and I don't see that good point it's supposedly making. The true situation is far more nuanced than "women aren't being sexy enough" or "men aren't stepping up". And I don't want to play this blame game any more.

Okay, though I do want it noted, for the record, that I didn't say "women aren't being sexy enough" was the cause of this problem.


No, but the Heartiste blog did:
Heartiste wrote:
If you want to know why men are running away from marriage, children and beta provisioning, one major reason is that the women available to these working class men are flat out disgusting. Take a look for yourself. What man of normal mental health and active libido wants to romantically woo and date, let alone marry, a beastly, waddling tatted mountain of pustulence with the issue of three other men barking and nipping at her cankles?

Heartiste wrote:
Women –

Lose weight. Stop being so goddamned fat. Men are more willing to provide for women who are young and slender.

Learn to use contraception. Do not get pregnant outside of marriage. Men really don’t like taking on the responsibility of children not their own.

Try not to f*** around so much. Men are not enthusiastic about marrying women whose vaginas have played host to numerous cocks before them.


I pretty much read that as "You stupid <zederated>, you're not being easy to objectify. So instead of marrying you and giving you objectification + money, I'm just going to <zederated> you and only objectify you. Because then I have more time to jack off and play Nintendo."
Alas, if only I were sexier, then I could be stuck putting up with his <zederated> forever.

TNLawPiper wrote:
Not all hormone pill prescriptions cost $100 per month, do they? Wal-Mart -- which is present in nearly every rural area across the country -- sells Ortho Cycle and Ortho Tricyclen for $9 per pack. I wonder what is the percentage of American women who need hormonal pills for non-contraceptive purposes and cannot either use Ortho Cyclen or Ortho Tricyclen, visit Planned Parenthood, find a Wal-Mart, or afford $9 per month. I find it difficult to believe that one could find many women in America who couldn't employ at least one of those options.

(I do not mean to dismiss the rest of your post, because you addressed some serious issues, but I just wanted to focus in on this point.)


I actually know a fair number of people who can't afford $9 a month. In complete honesty, it would be borderline for me. I'd make it work, because the priest promised not to let me starve.
In 2010, one in five households with children didn't have enough food. One kid in five lives in poverty. Average American income hasn't been this low since 1996.

I don't have any other statistics for you. And, thank God, there are some options. But the other side of things is that not all medications work equally well for a person. If Ortho Cyclen/Tricyclen doesn't work for her, then what?
We do have some good options in place. But I'm not comfortable relying on them as they are. I know too many people who slip through the cracks. Medical hormone pills need to be covered by insurance. That's why insurance is there--to provide for health problems. If it's not doing that, why the hell do we pay them?

And thank you for specifying that you didn't mean to dismiss the rest. Sometimes I wonder, when no one replies, if anyone heard me. I appreciate your taking the time to say that.

Thunktank wrote:
Brigid, thank you for your candor. It is good that we hear things from other points of view.

Thank you.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tobacco_tenderfoot
Minister of Forward-slashing
Minister of Forward-slashing


Joined: Jan 18, 2010
Posts: 2092

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:09 am Reply with quote Back to top

Brigid, I appreciate your incite and it should cause us (those against the HHS mandate) to second guess our viewpoints before steamrolling the party line out to everyone.

In regard to women getting yelled as they walked into clinics, that was not what I experienced when I participated in 40 Days for Life. There was another group who would occasionally would show up and "get in faces", but that is not how 40 Days operates. If anyone is looking for a tasteful group to volunteer with, I would strongly recommend 40 days (I recognize they may "operate" differently across the country).

Another thing, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence being thrown around. "I know someone", "I know a couple people", blogs about one persons story. These stories could be traded back and forth until the cows come home.

Rusty linked this article earlier, and as most studies do they play with numbers to favor their agenda.... http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2011/11/15/index.html

Even though the article spins the numbers to focus on the other uses of birth control, 86% of women used the pill for pregnancy prevention.

And a lot of times when the pill is subscribed for non contraception reasons (acne, irregular periods, etc...), I would think there are alternative treatments that would be just as effective. I would guess a healthy diet and exercise would top that list. But it's the American way now, to take the easy way out. Why workout and eat healthier (that's hard to do) when I can take a pill every day and eat what I want?

For instances where there are no other treatments (like your friend with the ovary issue) then I wish there would be a way to clearly identify and have the insurance cover these scenarios. How easy this is to do? I dunno. Remember the Church isn't against the use of the pill for legit medical reasons. Also, I want to echo what TNLP said, if getting covered for birth control is so high on your list, go work somewhere else. The free market will correct some of this. Probably, the employers not wanting to pay for these HHS mandated services may have to raise their salaries to remain competitive.

I know this is going to sound crass, but how many rapes a year wouldn't occur if there were no condoms/contraception? If you are a scumbag the likely two main deterrents to performing the disgusting act of rape are 1) getting caught, and 2) having a child conceived because of your act. I know this probably doesn't follow the party line, but the inanimate object of birth control isn't intrinsically evil. But it enables evil and immoral behavior.

Used to increase the amount of pre marital sex, sex trafficking, etc... = evil

Used to treat a legit medical conditions with no other optoins = not evil

It's the human individuals who take advantage of it that are sinful, including the <ZEDERATED> <ZEDERATED> <ZEDERATED> who push, market, and peddle it to young teen girls who don't know any better so they can make some money and get a lifelong customer to use their product every day for the rest of their reproductive lives.

OOOOOOOOOHHHH, and don't forget, this isn't about contraception. THIS IS AN ATTACK ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!!!! First they'll tell us what we have to insure, then what we have to teach, and then what we have to allow, then what we have to practice. And I know people will say I'm a paranoid cynic, but I believe when the Anglican church first "allowed" contraception in 1930 (?) it was to be used between married couples only. Look where we are now. You think those decision makers intended for this discussion to end up here?

In general I think Christians need to take a step back and ask themselves if they are a Christian first (are there non negotiable things you couldn't support via vote) or an American first (support entitlement programs more than I am against abortion).

_________________
Involuntary ignorance is not charged against you as a fault; but your fault is this---you neglect to inquire into the things you are ignorant of. -St. Augustine-
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:       
Post new topic   Reply to topic

View next topic
View previous topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


 
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters,
all the rest © 2002-2037 by Christian Pipe Smokers



Page Generation: 0.37 Seconds