What has become of Rattray's?

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What has become of Rattray's?

Post by Hovannes » Tue May 19, 2015 7:11 am

I came across this---
http://www.tecon-gmbh.de/info_pages.php?pages_id=193
It looks as if Peterson's line up of blends have been rebadged as Rattrays.
Curious indeed!

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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by coco » Tue May 19, 2015 7:29 am

Hovannes wrote:I came across this---
http://www.tecon-gmbh.de/info_pages.php?pages_id=193
It looks as if Peterson's line up of blends have been rebadged as Rattrays.
Curious indeed!
Rusty will need to confirm or deny what I am about to say:

For some unknown reason, Peterson tobacco's switched manufacturers for their tobaccos, going from Kohlhase, Kopp und Co. to the Scandinavian Tobacco Group. Any change in manufacturer will be accompanied by a change in taste (for better or worse), since the new manufacturer will have different tobacco sources, different production methodologies, etc.

Due to the legalities of the situation, Kohlhase, Kopp und Co. was able to maintain the recipes that were used to make the Peterson's tobacco's, but they were not able to maintain the names. Thus, when they were no longer contracted to make the Peterson's blends, they started making the exact same stuff under the Rattray's name. So, if you want the old Peterson tobaccos, all you have to do is figure out which Rattray's tobacco matches the old brand name (For example, Peterson's Irish Flake is now Rattray's Stirling Flake).

[Post edited a few times since Rusty quoted it :oops: ]
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by coco » Tue May 19, 2015 7:34 am

The following list allegedly describes the name changes:
Tom72 at PipeSmokersForum wrote:Buckingham (Gold Blend)
London Eye ( Nutty Cut)
Macbeth (Sherlock Holmes)
Malcolm Flake (Erínmore Flake)
Red Lion (Old Dublin)
Royal Albert (Luxury Blend)
Sir William (Irish Whiskey)
Stirling Flake (Irish Flake)
Tower Bridge (Connoisseur's Choice)
U***n Jack (iSunset Breeze)
Wallace Flake (University Flake)
Westminster Abbey (Sweet Killarney)
(partial descriptions are given at THIS website)
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by coco » Tue May 19, 2015 7:47 am

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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by Rusty » Tue May 19, 2015 7:52 am

coco wrote:
Hovannes wrote:I came across this---
http://www.tecon-gmbh.de/info_pages.php?pages_id=193
It looks as if Peterson's line up of blends have been rebadged as Rattrays.
Curious indeed!
Rusty will need to confirm or deny what I am about to say:

Due to the legalities of the situation, Kohlhase, Kopp und Co. was able to maintain the recipes that were used to make the Peterson's tobacco's, but they were not able to maintain the names. Thus, when they were no longer contracted to make the Peterson's blends, they started making the exact same stuff under the Rattray's name. So, if you want the old Peterson tobaccos, all you have to do is figure out which Rattray's tobacco matches the old brand name (For example, Peterson's Irish Flake is now Rattray's Stirling Flake).
It is odd, isn't it? Why does Rattray have Peterson's blends?
Kohhase Kopp retains the rights to whatever creative work they do in devising or adapting the blends. This would have to be in the contract between them or Germany has odd laws about creative work like devising a blend. Peterson owns their brand and likely the blend names, whether TM or not. Kohlhase Kopp acquired all the McConnell assets including the Rattray brand and all the others that McConnell owned. So the Rattray brand belongs to them. If you look you'll also see old Ashton blends under the Rattray brand. This is not the first time that this occurred. Ashton contracted McClelland to make their blends and KK would not hand over recipes., They regarded the recipes as their asset. McClelland reverse engineered the blends. Kohlhase Kopp continued making them for Europe.

We don't seem to see this with the other bigger third party manufacturers. When Imperial decided to contract Mac Baren to make their iconic blends for Euro & N. America distribution, the previous manufacturer, STG, didn't respond by marketing the same blends in the same form under one of their iconic brands. And Imperial probably would have sued them for infringement had they done so. It's strange behaviour for a manufacturer that desires biz making blends for others. Peterson also took the pipe distribution biz in Germany away from Kopp. So there appears to have been a major falling out.

Originally Peterson contracted Murray's (Rothman's that merged with BAT) to manufacture blends for their brand. It was likely a collaborative effort but the tobacco expertise would have been in Murray's. BAT didn't walk away with the recipes and compete with Peterson after the closure of Murrays. BAT's own blends all went to STG under a manufacturing contract from BAT. I'm scratching my head wondering which other brands went to Kohlhase Kopp for manufacturing after Murray's closed. Kopp & Palmer seemed to be the best of pals from 2005 until the falling out.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by SteveH » Tue May 19, 2015 9:48 am

What a curious situation.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by Rusty » Tue May 19, 2015 11:45 am

SteveH wrote:What a curious situation.
It devalues brands. The brands have been used to cover other changes as well so this was already occurring. But originally the brand was an assurance that the consumer is getting the real product. If you're dependent on someone else to make your product and you change manufacturers which one is the real product?

There have been three versions of most of the Peterson line of tobaccos. The Murray's version, the Kohlhase Kopp version, and now the STG version which is branded Peterson. The effect of the KK action to tell companies, that contract with them to make blends, that you either renew the contract & stay with us or we'll become your competitor and we'll likely take a lot of your existing market share.

I liked the originally Murray's version of the ones I enjoyed and I didn't ever have many tins of the KK versions. Irish Flake was introduced with KK as the manufacturer.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by A_Morley » Tue May 19, 2015 3:47 pm

This is bad on so many levels. Especially their renaming Sherlock Holmes Macbeth. Ill-omened, indeed. Don't they know that that name's cursed. Cursed, I say.

They should desist immediately.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by DAN » Tue May 19, 2015 5:28 pm

A_Morley wrote:This is bad on so many levels. Especially their renaming Sherlock Holmes Macbeth. Ill-omened, indeed. Don't they know that that name's cursed. Cursed, I say.

They should desist immediately.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by A_Morley » Tue May 19, 2015 6:36 pm

Worked under a man for a while who didn't heed the curse. Would walk around his own theater shouting the name Macbeth just to see me do the cleansing ritual after which he would laugh derisively.

Within a year he was bankrupt, the theater closed deep in arrears, and he left town under a cloud of shame.

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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by JohnnyMcPiperson » Tue May 19, 2015 8:08 pm

So it sounds like rebranding was a good move? Since it means they are not saying hey we are still making these blends when in fact they will have changed… ??? I dunno, I just smoke the stuff… Almost everything I smoke is at least three years old anyway, I haven't bought tobacco in quite some time. I went cellar crazy back in college and I still have more tobacco that I will probably ever smoke… So in all likelihood I will never try any of these so called "Rattray" blends, but what I want to know is what happened to the "real" Rattray blends like Hal o' the wind and such? Do they still make those and if so why do they need to make all these others under false pretenses...
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by Joshoowah » Tue May 19, 2015 9:48 pm

JohnnyMcPiperson wrote:So it sounds like rebranding was a good move? Since it means they are not saying hey we are still making these blends when in fact they will have changed… ??? I dunno, I just smoke the stuff… Almost everything I smoke is at least three years old anyway, I haven't bought tobacco in quite some time. I went cellar crazy back in college and I still have more tobacco that I will probably ever smoke… So in all likelihood I will never try any of these so called "Rattray" blends, but what I want to know is what happened to the "real" Rattray blends like Hal o' the wind and such? Do they still make those and if so why do they need to make all these others under false pretenses...

All their original blends are still on the market. They're just trying to intrude on another's market.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by Hovannes » Fri May 22, 2015 8:11 pm

A_Morley wrote:Worked under a man for a while who didn't heed the curse. Would walk around his own theater shouting the name Macbeth just to see me do the cleansing ritual after which he would laugh derisively.

Within a year he was bankrupt, the theater closed deep in arrears, and he left town under a cloud of shame.

Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by Rusty » Sat May 23, 2015 8:16 am

Hovannes wrote:
A_Morley wrote:Worked under a man for a while who didn't heed the curse. Would walk around his own theater shouting the name Macbeth just to see me do the cleansing ritual after which he would laugh derisively.

Within a year he was bankrupt, the theater closed deep in arrears, and he left town under a cloud of shame.

Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends.
It's black & white all the way for me, Baby! 8)
Photographers making color prints are cursed 8O ---
http://www.ae5d.com/macbeth.html
How did this biz get in here?

It's not all black and white. It's all shades of grey. Apparently (and you can try this) a good printer can get about 50 Shades of Grey. Now where have we heard that title before?
A mood rises just to have.

Though it is not too sweet, the citreous marble design is refreshing womanfully, and a mood rises just to have.


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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by huddsbaggie » Sun May 31, 2015 9:57 am

Rusty wrote:
Hovannes wrote:
A_Morley wrote:Worked under a man for a while who didn't heed the curse. Would walk around his own theater shouting the name Macbeth just to see me do the cleansing ritual after which he would laugh derisively.

Within a year he was bankrupt, the theater closed deep in arrears, and he left town under a cloud of shame.

Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends.
It's black & white all the way for me, Baby! 8)
Photographers making color prints are cursed 8O ---
http://www.ae5d.com/macbeth.html
How did this biz get in here?

It's not all black and white. It's all shades of grey. Apparently (and you can try this) a good printer can get about 50 Shades of Grey. Now where have we heard that title before?
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by les » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:34 am

I see SP has a new Rattray's - 40 Virginia. Any idea what this corresponds to, or does this signal a product line extension so that KK can entrench their market position vs. Pete? Or is this an attempt to grandfather new labels as the EU starts to put their product testing requirements into their tobacco regs?

I love these food fights between the blenders!

hp
les

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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by Rusty » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:26 pm

les wrote:I see SP has a new Rattray's - 40 Virginia. Any idea what this corresponds to, or does this signal a product line extension so that KK can entrench their market position vs. Pete? Or is this an attempt to grandfather new labels as the EU starts to put their product testing requirements into their tobacco regs?

I love these food fights between the blenders!

hp
les
What it corresponds to? That suggests that they've run out of new ideas for blends and are remaking the blends of somebody else. I think they're not really guilty of that. If you check out KK's site you'll note that they have four Rattray blend lines now, where before, for the longest time, it was only two. So it's not just 40 Virginia. Have you enjoyed MacBeth, Bag Piper's Dream, Red Lion, or Sir William? These are 'additions' to their British line - that Rattray didn't make. And BTW I don't know where Black Parrot, Pebblecut, and the other old Ashton's went. They too were sitting under the Rattray brand earlier this year. K&K is a small tobacco maker and seems to be very agile & quick in moving things around under brands. It's confusing watching them.

http://kohlhase-kopp.com/ceemes/tabak/rattray-s/

If the EU takes the FDA's hint and forces their tobacco companies to do laboratory testing of content, emissions, etc. then only the large tobacco companies will remain. The tiny pipe tobacco makers can't afford to do this on the scale that the FDA would require. So what are you hearing or seeing about the EU regs?
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Though it is not too sweet, the citreous marble design is refreshing womanfully, and a mood rises just to have.


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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by SteveH » Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:50 pm

A_Morley wrote:This is bad on so many levels. Especially their renaming Sherlock Holmes Macbeth. Ill-omened, indeed. Don't they know that that name's cursed. Cursed, I say.

They should desist immediately.
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by JudgeRusty » Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:26 pm

New tobacco guy at The Briary called it "Rat-Ray's."

I had always called it RATtray (of course my neighbor has the same last name, and I may have just assumed it was pronounced the same as his).
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Re: What has become of Rattray's?

Post by JohnnyMcPiperson » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:29 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
JohnnyMcPiperson wrote:So it sounds like rebranding was a good move? Since it means they are not saying hey we are still making these blends when in fact they will have changed… ??? I dunno, I just smoke the stuff… Almost everything I smoke is at least three years old anyway, I haven't bought tobacco in quite some time. I went cellar crazy back in college and I still have more tobacco that I will probably ever smoke… So in all likelihood I will never try any of these so called "Rattray" blends, but what I want to know is what happened to the "real" Rattray blends like Hal o' the wind and such? Do they still make those and if so why do they need to make all these others under false pretenses...

All their original blends are still on the market. They're just trying to intrude on another's market.
I get it now! Ok so they are still making the blends from Peterson, but the names were taken away so they just renamed them to compete with the new blends that will don the old names... Huh...


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