To the Faithful Departed

Questions, Reviews, Storage, Etc.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by Rusty » Sun May 28, 2017 9:03 am

I wrote about Craven Mixture back in 2008...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5946&p=132776#p132776

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If you enlarge the tin pic you can read the label and see both the origin decade for the blend, JM Barrie's quote, and "The House of Craven" displayed around the label. That certainly indicates the prominence of the brand. It's quite possible that the earliest versions of the blend didn't include Latakia. But it was at least a Va/Or mixture because the red coats had almost certainly brought back Orientals from the Crimean wars. They would have mixed the Orientals with their flue cured Virginias. It's a precursor to English Latakia blends, eg VA + Or + Lat. But it certainly becomes a Latakia mixture at some point in the late 19th C. By the time Barrie and Conan Doyle are talking about it, it is a Latakia mixture.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by A_Morley » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:20 am

Does anybody remember China Black. I do, though I avoided buying any. Probably for the best.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by SlowToke » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:39 am

I am mourning the loss of McClelland's Christmas Cheer. Alas, the wound is still fresh.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by A_Morley » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:45 am

SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:39 am
I am mourning the loss of McClelland's Christmas Cheer. Alas, the wound is still fresh.
Wait. They don't make that anymore?
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by SlowToke » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:51 am

A_Morley wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:45 am
SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:39 am
I am mourning the loss of McClelland's Christmas Cheer. Alas, the wound is still fresh.
Wait. They don't make that anymore?
It is my understanding that, due to FDA regulations, this is the last year for Christmas Cheer.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by Rusty » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:10 pm

SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:51 am
A_Morley wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:45 am
SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:39 am
I am mourning the loss of McClelland's Christmas Cheer. Alas, the wound is still fresh.
Wait. They don't make that anymore?
It is my understanding that, due to FDA regulations, this is the last year for Christmas Cheer.
Yes, but it was released a year early. That's a big plus. Also at this point with the number of new blends introduced after the deeming rule went active last August you have to wonder whether the FDA is actually going to bother enforcing it for pipe tobacco products. Or it might be that the FDA is providing authorization to market and distribute new pipe tobacco products. There are still new pipes.

I think the evidence so far leads to some hope. We're seeing something that looks quite different than expected.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by A_Morley » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:39 pm

What about Sail? Is Sail still around?

Actually, I don't think that I ever really liked Sail. I'm sure someone did, though, and that they'd be sad that it wasn't around anymore.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by Joshoowah » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:40 am

Rusty wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:10 pm
SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:51 am
A_Morley wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:45 am
SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:39 am
I am mourning the loss of McClelland's Christmas Cheer. Alas, the wound is still fresh.
Wait. They don't make that anymore?
It is my understanding that, due to FDA regulations, this is the last year for Christmas Cheer.
Yes, but it was released a year early. That's a big plus. Also at this point with the number of new blends introduced after the deeming rule went active last August you have to wonder whether the FDA is actually going to bother enforcing it for pipe tobacco products. Or it might be that the FDA is providing authorization to market and distribute new pipe tobacco products. There are still new pipes.

I think the evidence so far leads to some hope. We're seeing something that looks quite different than expected.
I have to wonder if you're correct in this, as C&D has released a number of new blends since the deeming rule, and they're not the only ones.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by Rusty » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:31 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:40 am
Rusty wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:10 pm
SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:51 am
A_Morley wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:45 am
SlowToke wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:39 am
I am mourning the loss of McClelland's Christmas Cheer. Alas, the wound is still fresh.
Wait. They don't make that anymore?
It is my understanding that, due to FDA regulations, this is the last year for Christmas Cheer.
Yes, but it was released a year early. That's a big plus. Also at this point with the number of new blends introduced after the deeming rule went active last August you have to wonder whether the FDA is actually going to bother enforcing it for pipe tobacco products. Or it might be that the FDA is providing authorization to market and distribute new pipe tobacco products. There are still new pipes.

I think the evidence so far leads to some hope. We're seeing something that looks quite different than expected.
I have to wonder if you're correct in this, as C&D has released a number of new blends since the deeming rule, and they're not the only ones.
I wonder if I'm correct about this too. I agree they have introduced new product. But it's a discussion forum so posting things that we wonder about is ok. In this case it would be helpful if we had an FDA listing of generic FDA regulatory milestones together with authorization dialog for new OTP product introduction to market after Aug. 8, 2016. In particular we're missing the FDA authorization 'gates' ie go/no-go based upon submissions. There is something that looks like a milestone list at the following URL but it's not clear where the FDA gates are. And the whole thing is also a deeming rule rollout.

https://www.fda.gov/tobaccoproducts/gui ... efault.htm

....and there is another interesting compliance list, that suspiciously, doesn't have new prod. after 8/8/16, at:
https://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Gui ... 500778.htm

Under the "What do I need to comply..." section in the first doc. there is some information.

"For products introduced after 8/8/16, you must submit ingredient listing 90 days before marketing." This occurs in association with a number of milestones and it appears that new product can get to market. Ok so 90 days before market you have submitted your new tobacco product ingredient listing that uses plutonium in the topping and you're explicit about this in the ingredient listing. Does the FDA just accept the list and file it or is there a dialog where the FDA forbids going to market? Because the lovely plutonium topping is deadly. Is this a go/no-go FDA gate or does that happen at a later milestone?

Then there are pre-market applications in both 2017 and 2018. It might be possible during deeming rule rollout - only - to introduce new products, with submission of an ingredients list, before the FDA grants authorization to market. Or it might be that one can always introduce new products to market, with an ingredients list, but they may fail to comply with a later milestone (PMTA or SE) required to stay on the market. But yet in another place (product review and evaluation) the FDA asserts "New tobacco products may not be legally marketed in the United States unless FDA has issued an order permitting their marketing." When does that apply?

Is this what we're seeing?
Last edited by Rusty on Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by les » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:24 pm

Yo Josh

To your point that "C&D has released a number of new blends since the deeming rule" - a couple of my pipe clubs got quite a few new and reissued blends from C&D and others prior to the original August 2016 Deeming date. These all were very limited first runs, maybe a handful of tins per batch. Some were puzzled when P&C listed a number of new blends, which then promptly went on backorder or out of stock - but this looked like the same tactic of getting the product 'on the market', as it were. Some of all of these have now been 'introduced' more formally. I've been assuming that this allowed the blenders to throw their hats into the ring and have the option of selling the products for the next year or so. If any of these really took off, then they could still go through the process of registering a semi-grandfathered blend.

I am hopeful that the new administrator Gottlieb will substantially modify the damnable Deeming regs. The recent 90 day delay looked just like a technicality to me rather than a substantive policy change.

hp
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by Rusty » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:34 pm

les wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:24 pm
Yo Josh

To your point that "C&D has released a number of new blends since the deeming rule" - a couple of my pipe clubs got quite a few new and reissued blends from C&D and others prior to the original August 2016 Deeming date. These all were very limited first runs, maybe a handful of tins per batch. Some were puzzled when P&C listed a number of new blends, which then promptly went on backorder or out of stock - but this looked like the same tactic of getting the product 'on the market', as it were. Some of all of these have now been 'introduced' more formally. I've been assuming that this allowed the blenders to throw their hats into the ring and have the option of selling the products for the next year or so. If any of these really took off, then they could still go through the process of registering a semi-grandfathered blend.

I am hopeful that the new administrator Gottlieb will substantially modify the damnable Deeming regs. The recent 90 day delay looked just like a technicality to me rather than a substantive policy change.

hp
les
What is a semi-grandfathered blend?
It's interesting that you use the word registration. I haven't seen the FDA use that word in connection with product.

Are you talking to any of the manufacturers about new products and the FDA requirements to intro to market. This isn't pre-release club blends for feedback or resurrected goodies that aren't on the market. But tobacco makers/importers are also introducing new products to market. Could you ask them what FDA hurdles they leap?
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by philofumo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:07 pm

Although I have some pouches in the cellar,
I still mourn the loss of Velvan Plug.

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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:26 pm

But may I thank you for introducing me to Latakia Flake.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by philofumo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:16 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:26 pm
But may I thank you for introducing me to Latakia Flake.
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Cheers!

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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by A_Morley » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:22 am

dennisthemenace wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 4:38 pm
Arcadia is a good mixture; but not IMO as good as the old Craven A. To me they seem quite different. Of course I haven't smoked Craven A in over 40 years, so I could be wrong.
One other thing that I'd like to have clarified: does Craven A/Arcadia contain Latakia? I've gotten mixed reports. It's been years since I've smoked it and I do remember tasting Latakia, but I might have been tasting other pungent Orientals, which I know that it did contain.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by dennisthemenace » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:11 am

To my recollection, yes it did have Latakia.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by A_Morley » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:23 am

What about the OTC version of Rum & Maple? Who made that again?

Gee, but that stuff was good.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by hugodrax » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:05 pm

A_Morley wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:23 am
What about the OTC version of Rum & Maple? Who made that again?

Gee, but that stuff was good.
That stuff was truly great. It was a Lane. Plant still makes it for the Germans.
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by Rusty » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:18 pm

dennisthemenace wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:11 am
To my recollection, yes it did have Latakia.
Craven A? Nope, no Latakia. And it still doesn't have Latakia. It was and is a straight Virginia. This was introduced as a cigarette tobacco in England in the post WWI era. Pipe smokers do use RYO tobaccos. It's still a Virginia cigarette tobacco available in Canada. Craven Mixture did have Latakia. Craven Mixture long precedes its "brothers" on the market. And like any successful brand it gets reused in new products. Craven became one of Carreras' premium brands and the products sporting the brand proliferated.

Who can connect Carreras with Rothman's? Anton Rupert, in fact. Rembrandt Group. The Craven A brand belongs to (and is in use) by Rothman's, Benson & Hedges in Canada. RBH is a PMI asset, I think.

In Commonwealth countries straight Virginias are the tradition, from Britain & Canada to Australia and New Zealand it's a different tobacco tradition from the US. So the curious question is what would Americans have recognized as Craven A? Did Rothman's rebrand something else as Craven A? A Virginia mixture absent Burley's etc is a non-starter in America. So why do Americans remember Craven A? There was Craven Mixture which was the latakia mixture and that was marketed in the US too.

Checking old RTDA annuals in the late 80's I see Craven A as imported cigarettes in America and it looks like they're imported from both Canada and Jamaica. I also see a listing for a 1 & 3/4 oz. tin of pipe tobacco just called "Craven" in the late 80's RTDA annuals. In the 1994 RTDA annual the tin listing changes to "Cravens Mixture".
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Re: To the Faithful Departed

Post by A_Morley » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:09 pm

Rusty wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:18 pm
dennisthemenace wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:11 am
To my recollection, yes it did have Latakia.
Craven A? Nope, no Latakia. And it still doesn't have Latakia. It was and is a straight Virginia. This was introduced as a cigarette tobacco in England in the post WWI era. Pipe smokers do use RYO tobaccos. It's still a Virginia cigarette tobacco available in Canada. Craven Mixture did have Latakia. Craven Mixture long precedes its "brothers" on the market. And like any successful brand it gets reused in new products. Craven became one of Carreras' premium brands and the products sporting the brand proliferated.

Who can connect Carreras with Rothman's? Anton Rupert, in fact. Rembrandt Group. The Craven A brand belongs to (and is in use) by Rothman's, Benson & Hedges in Canada. RBH is a PMI asset, I think.

In Commonwealth countries straight Virginias are the tradition, from Britain & Canada to Australia and New Zealand it's a different tobacco tradition from the US. So the curious question is what would Americans have recognized as Craven A? Did Rothman's rebrand something else as Craven A? A Virginia mixture absent Burley's etc is a non-starter in America. So why do Americans remember Craven A? There was Craven Mixture which was the latakia mixture and that was marketed in the US too.

Checking old RTDA annuals in the late 80's I see Craven A as imported cigarettes in America and it looks like they're imported from both Canada and Jamaica. I also see a listing for a 1 & 3/4 oz. tin of pipe tobacco just called "Craven" in the late 80's RTDA annuals. In the 1994 RTDA annual the tin listing changes to "Cravens Mixture".
The commissary at my old alma mater sold Craven A cigarettes. I bought some and smoked them. I was, shortly thereafter, ashamed of myself.
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