Socialism

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Kerdy
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Post by Kerdy » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:13 pm

Onyx wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.
Wow! What comes after? (I've seen the news, but I don't really know like someone who lived through it knows.)
It is called "Transitional period". Most of the former communist countries are still in it. Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
It takes time. Look how long it took us to adapt and prosper.
Yes, Kerdy. But it's quite possible that the prosperous period will be shorter lived than the time of adaptation! Other countries may be taking the approach that they want to learn from the US model, but not necessarily emulate it.

Following the awful transition to a free market seen in the Eastern Block countries, China is taking a much more measured approach. China is orchestrating a tightly controlled transition to a free market. (A bit of a contradiction in terms, I know.) But the government is allowing incremental changes so as to avoid a collapse into chaos.
Those countries are free to follow whatever path they choose. The key part is they are FREE to choose.
And if some of them fail to choose freely, than the bombs come dowon. Ask the serbs.
Wow! It's awesome when you hear the other guy's perspective. Now that's learning!
Especially when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
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Post by Kerdy » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:16 pm

huddsbaggie wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
huddsbaggie wrote:And yet men suffered and gave up their lives for "no reward" in the straightforward material sense. As George Orwell put it:

"The real objective of Socialism is human brotherhood. This is widely felt to be the case, though it is not usually said, or not said loudly enough. Men use up their lives in heart-breaking political struggles, or get themselves killed in civil wars, or tortured in the secret prisons of the Gestapo, not in order to establish some central-heated, air-conditioned, strip-lighted Paradise, but because they want a world in which human beings love one another instead of swindling and murdering one another. And they want that world as a first step. Where they go from there is not so certain, and the attempt to foresee it in detail merely confuses the issue. "

I have known men, mostly now dead, who fitted Orwell's description. Brave, modest, selfless, decent men, including my former Deputy Headmaster and older workmates and friends whom I met when I was starting work, who had fought against fascism in the thirties and forties and into peace time motivated not by hate but by a passion to end poverty, war and injustice - for no individual personal gain but, rather, belief and hope for a better world. Imagine - being prepared (no - to go way, way, out of your way) to suffer deprivation and possibly torture and to be willing to give up your life for something as stupid as love of your fellow man!

Some were well versed in political theory, but that wouldn't have motivated them to volunteer, like Orwell himself, for such bitter struggle. (Orwell himself took a bullet in the neck in Spain and was nearly killed). One of the gentlest men I knew, Bill J, had made his way across Europe in hazardous, difficult conditions and fought from Spain in 37 to return to mainland Europe three years later only to be to be evacuated at Dunkirk, then back on D Day and across Europe til 1945 and spent the rest of his modest life advocating adult education and socialism. I loved that man. I am minded of Orwell's poem of Spain that ends:

"The thing I saw within your face
No power can disinherit
No bomb that ever burst
Shatters the crystal spirit"

It seems so strange and far away now, in this cynical world.

There has never been "socialism" as such. Social democracy within pluralist Capitalist states, yes with some decent results and some failures, and Marxist Leninism has attempted theory in conditions that were not strictly in accordance with Marx's own theory and ended in totalitarianism and lies and repression. No doubt Plekhanov would be saying: "I told you so", if he could....

Which is a long way of saying - Socialism isn't about levelling out, but excellence, determination and selflessness and seeing where it goes (with less, not more State control). Which we know won't happen, but we have glimpses.

Me? I run my own business which I started from scratch and am pretty successful. Yet I'm a socialist at heart. Disillusioned and tired, but I'm proud to have had good men as friends. And what it taught me is never cheat on those men. Never give up on hope for the future. Indeed, never, ever, give up, which has served me well as a maxim as I started off on a difficult road.

We ARE all brothers.
Orwellian:

adjective

"of or like the society portrayed by Orwell in his novel Nineteen Eighty-four, in which a totalitarian state exercises almost total control over the public and private activities of the citizens"

No thanks! I will keep what we have.
You're not inferring from that definition that Orwell advocated the totalitarian state are you, lad?
Am I?
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Post by Kerdy » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:19 pm

wesleyan-gun wrote:The same old folks who complain about a national health care system are almost universally enrolled in Medicare ( a national health care system ).


I am not enrolled in Medicare and I certainly do not want socialist health care. It, by defininition, is unconstitutional. How anyone can advocate an unconstitutional program in this country confuses me beyond belief.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by Kerdy » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:20 pm

CaptainBlack wrote:
Perhaps my perspective is skewed a bit but I've considered visits to Mc Donalds, Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, etc to be a special treat rather than a necessity. So it boggles my mind when I hear that the existance of a fast food restuarant somehow forces people to make bad diet decisions when people can prepare healthier meals for a lot less money.
To me, its like saying the existance of books forces people to be stupid because if it werent for tough books, people wouldnt choose NOT to read.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by wesleyan-gun » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:11 am

sysiphus wrote:
wesleyan-gun wrote:The same old folks who complain about a national health care system are almost universally enrolled in Medicare ( a national health care system ).
What? Can you name one person (personally or anecdotally) who is enrolled in Medicare and complaining about national health care? Unless you count those who are required to pay into the system...
Labor rights, corporate governance and regulation, the FDA, the TVA, Social Security and all other instruments of government policy were put in place because they were needed.
But are they needed now? Are there non-U***n shops out there working miners 18 hours a day for pennies?
I find the whole argument over "socialism" to be silly and tilts at windmills. It is sillly to deny a system which does benefit the weaker and less fortunate and the goal should be to put the correct incentives in place which reward work, thrift and education.
And confiscatory policies that use my earnings to finance those who choose not to work is an incentive for whom, exactly?
1.) Yes, I can. They listen to Glen Beck on a regular basis and do not see the hypocrisy of receiving govt medical care while denying it to others.
2.) The mining disaster in Utah comes to mind. The company practiced "retreat mining" which risked its employees and several miners and 2 rescuers were killed because the Mine Safety Health admin failed to regulate the company (Murray Energy). Of course the Secy of Labor at that time was Elaine Chow, wife of Kentucky Sen McConnell whose campaign received generous contributions from the owner of Murray energy. There are widespread abuses in the labor market today regarding employers stiffing their employees, unclocked overtime, sub-minimum wages. etc. Go to any state labor office and listen to the complaints.
3.) "Confiscatory" is a much overused and vague term. Today's young, obese techy libertarians are tomorrow's heart patients and will need care, so they should pay now into an insurance scheme, even if it seems "confiscatory".
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Post by darthsaturn » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:13 am

I am not enrolled in medicare. Wesleyan-gun, Glenn's name is spelled with 2 N's, not one.
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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:55 am

darthsaturn wrote:I am not enrolled in medicare.


The guy whose finger was bitten off in the scuffle a week or so ago was on Medicare and anti-reform. Everyone pays into the Medicare system, though, so I don't know what sys means by that.
Wesleyan-gun, Glenn's name is spelled with 2 N's, not one.
Zing!

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Post by wesleyan-gun » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:54 pm

darthsaturn wrote:I am not enrolled in medicare. Wesleyan-gun, Glenn's name is spelled with 2 N's, not one.
1.) Are you 66+ years of age? Will you be enrolled in Medicare once you reach that age? If you are 66+, how do receive health care? Just curious since almost everybody in that age group I know is enrolled in Medicare.

2.) Glen(n)??? I fail to see the point. One thing you should know: Glen(n) Beck recently converted to Mormonism and there is in that religion a tendency to stress the private sector because they have an internal welfare/tithing system along with a deep, almost religious distrust of government which expresses itself in occasional violence. Many Mormons are a perfect political match with the religious right despite the deep theological differences between the two. Let's just say Glen(n) has found a perfect audience in conservative Utah Mormons, which is why he's such a hit at BYU when he visits there. Mormonism not only carries a theological difference; it is also a unique culture in itself, with the local bishop carrying huge power over the lives of individual Mormons which govern their ability to function in society. The most anti-Mormon folks I know are those who have come out of it. My own church has both a music director and organist who received an excellent music education at BYU, but could not believe in Mormon doctrine.
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Post by darthsaturn » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:12 pm

wesleyan-gun wrote:
darthsaturn wrote:I am not enrolled in medicare. Wesleyan-gun, Glenn's name is spelled with 2 N's, not one.
1.) Are you 66+ years of age? Will you be enrolled in Medicare once you reach that age? If you are 66+, how do receive health care? Just curious since almost everybody in that age group I know is enrolled in Medicare.

2.) Glen(n)??? I fail to see the point. One thing you should know: Glen(n) Beck recently converted to Mormonism and there is in that religion a tendency to stress the private sector because they have an internal welfare/tithing system along with a deep, almost religious distrust of government which expresses itself in occasional violence. Many Mormons are a perfect political match with the religious right despite the deep theological differences between the two. Let's just say Glen(n) has found a perfect audience in conservative Utah Mormons, which is why he's such a hit at BYU when he visits there. Mormonism not only carries a theological difference; it is also a unique culture in itself, with the local bishop carrying huge power over the lives of individual Mormons which govern their ability to function in society. The most anti-Mormon folks I know are those who have come out of it. My own church has both a music director and organist who received an excellent music education at BYU, but could not believe in Mormon doctrine.
I'm 34 and get coverage through work. I was just picking on your spelling of Glenn. I missed that you said "same old folks" and thought you meant everyone against the bill was on medicare. It seemed I read that too fast. Sorry.
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Post by wesleyan-gun » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:26 pm

darthsaturn wrote:
wesleyan-gun wrote:
darthsaturn wrote:I am not enrolled in medicare. Wesleyan-gun, Glenn's name is spelled with 2 N's, not one.
1.) Are you 66+ years of age? Will you be enrolled in Medicare once you reach that age? If you are 66+, how do receive health care? Just curious since almost everybody in that age group I know is enrolled in Medicare.

2.) Glen(n)??? I fail to see the point. One thing you should know: Glen(n) Beck recently converted to Mormonism and there is in that religion a tendency to stress the private sector because they have an internal welfare/tithing system along with a deep, almost religious distrust of government which expresses itself in occasional violence. Many Mormons are a perfect political match with the religious right despite the deep theological differences between the two. Let's just say Glen(n) has found a perfect audience in conservative Utah Mormons, which is why he's such a hit at BYU when he visits there. Mormonism not only carries a theological difference; it is also a unique culture in itself, with the local bishop carrying huge power over the lives of individual Mormons which govern their ability to function in society. The most anti-Mormon folks I know are those who have come out of it. My own church has both a music director and organist who received an excellent music education at BYU, but could not believe in Mormon doctrine.
I'm 34 and get coverage through work. I was just picking on your spelling of Glenn. I missed that you said "same old folks" and thought you meant everyone against the bill was on medicare. It seemed I read that too fast. Sorry.
No worries, friend. I did think you ought to know about Beck, though.
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Re: Socialism

Post by Jester » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:04 am

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

Every morning get alone with God and preach his Word into your mind until your heart sings with confidence that you are new and cared for. -John Piper

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Re: Socialism

Post by DAN » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:33 am

Jester wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:04 am
https://youtu.be/6hkMZiXn6rw

You'll get no argument from me.
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Re: Socialism

Post by hugodrax » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 am

Good grief. I'm hoping I was the only one that watched that. Probably the single most stupid thing I've seen recently. The fact that it could resonate with anyone only serves to exacerbate my belief that universal suffrage is a horrendous idea.
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Re: Socialism

Post by Del » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:40 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 am
Good grief. I'm hoping I was the only one that watched that. Probably the single most stupid thing I've seen recently. The fact that it could resonate with anyone only serves to exacerbate my belief that universal suffrage is a horrendous idea.
Was there even a real study? Or was that all an invention of Klavan's imagination?

[google-fu]

OMG! It's a real study!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weak ... -rsnc3l8mk
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Re: Socialism

Post by hugodrax » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 am

Del wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 am
Good grief. I'm hoping I was the only one that watched that. Probably the single most stupid thing I've seen recently. The fact that it could resonate with anyone only serves to exacerbate my belief that universal suffrage is a horrendous idea.
Was there even a real study? Or was that all an invention of Klavan's imagination?

[google-fu]

OMG! It's a real study!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weak ... -rsnc3l8mk
Obviously it's a real study. But wouldn't you like to take a look at the methodology? Seems rather dubious on its face, does it not?

And whoever made that video was a braying jackass.
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Re: Socialism

Post by Del » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:09 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 am
Del wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 am
Good grief. I'm hoping I was the only one that watched that. Probably the single most stupid thing I've seen recently. The fact that it could resonate with anyone only serves to exacerbate my belief that universal suffrage is a horrendous idea.
Was there even a real study? Or was that all an invention of Klavan's imagination?

[google-fu]

OMG! It's a real study!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weak ... -rsnc3l8mk
Obviously it's a real study. But wouldn't you like to take a look at the methodology? Seems rather dubious on its face, does it not?

And whoever made that video was a braying jackass.
My first impressions of this "study":
- Reported results are consistent with my personal experience.
- All the same, the conclusions are irrelevant.
- If somebody got a grant to do this study, it was to purchase this result. Like climate-prediction research, they get the results that they want.

I don't care to look at their methodology. A slew of leftist academics will debunk it shortly.

If socialism is true & good, I don't care if a bunch of meeklings believe it. Same with Christianity.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Socialism

Post by hugodrax » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:23 am

Del wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:09 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 am
Del wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 am
Good grief. I'm hoping I was the only one that watched that. Probably the single most stupid thing I've seen recently. The fact that it could resonate with anyone only serves to exacerbate my belief that universal suffrage is a horrendous idea.
Was there even a real study? Or was that all an invention of Klavan's imagination?

[google-fu]

OMG! It's a real study!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weak ... -rsnc3l8mk
Obviously it's a real study. But wouldn't you like to take a look at the methodology? Seems rather dubious on its face, does it not?

And whoever made that video was a braying jackass.
My first impressions of this "study":
- Reported results are consistent with my personal experience.
- All the same, the conclusions are irrelevant
- If somebody got a grant to do this study, it was to purchase this result. Like climate-prediction research, they get the results that they want.

I don't care to look at their methodology. A slew of leftist academics will debunk it shortly.
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Re: Socialism

Post by wosbald » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:33 am

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:09 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 am
Jester wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:04 am
https://youtu.be/6hkMZiXn6rw
And whoever made that video was a braying jackass.
My first impressions of this "study":
- Reported results are consistent with my personal experience.
- All the same, the conclusions are irrelevant.
- If somebody got a grant to do this study, it was to purchase this result.
True dat. The ironic part is that, mutatis mutandis, one could get the exact same study to prove that:

Image




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Re: Socialism

Post by Del » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:33 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:23 am
Del wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:09 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:50 am
Del wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 am
Good grief. I'm hoping I was the only one that watched that. Probably the single most stupid thing I've seen recently. The fact that it could resonate with anyone only serves to exacerbate my belief that universal suffrage is a horrendous idea.
Was there even a real study? Or was that all an invention of Klavan's imagination?

[google-fu]

OMG! It's a real study!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/weak ... -rsnc3l8mk
Obviously it's a real study. But wouldn't you like to take a look at the methodology? Seems rather dubious on its face, does it not?

And whoever made that video was a braying jackass.
My first impressions of this "study":
- Reported results are consistent with my personal experience.
- All the same, the conclusions are irrelevant
- If somebody got a grant to do this study, it was to purchase this result. Like climate-prediction research, they get the results that they want.

I don't care to look at their methodology. A slew of leftist academics will debunk it shortly.
You know what it's like to sexually please women? Isn't that a sin?
That was from Klavan's braying jackass video, which led to this extended waste of time.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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