Socialism

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Socialism

Post by Kerdy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:24 pm

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before,
but had once failed an entire class.

--------------------------------------------

That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.


The professor then said, "OK,
we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".


All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.


After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.


As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D!
No one was happy.


When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering,
blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.


All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.


Could not be any simpler than that.
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Post by BalkanBoy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:19 pm

I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.

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Post by huddsbaggie » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:50 pm

And yet men suffered and gave up their lives for "no reward" in the straightforward material sense. As George Orwell put it:

"The real objective of Socialism is human brotherhood. This is widely felt to be the case, though it is not usually said, or not said loudly enough. Men use up their lives in heart-breaking political struggles, or get themselves killed in civil wars, or tortured in the secret prisons of the Gestapo, not in order to establish some central-heated, air-conditioned, strip-lighted Paradise, but because they want a world in which human beings love one another instead of swindling and murdering one another. And they want that world as a first step. Where they go from there is not so certain, and the attempt to foresee it in detail merely confuses the issue. "

I have known men, mostly now dead, who fitted Orwell's description. Brave, modest, selfless, decent men, including my former Deputy Headmaster and older workmates and friends whom I met when I was starting work, who had fought against fascism in the thirties and forties and into peace time motivated not by hate but by a passion to end poverty, war and injustice - for no individual personal gain but, rather, belief and hope for a better world. Imagine - being prepared (no - to go way, way, out of your way) to suffer deprivation and possibly torture and to be willing to give up your life for something as stupid as love of your fellow man!

Some were well versed in political theory, but that wouldn't have motivated them to volunteer, like Orwell himself, for such bitter struggle. (Orwell himself took a bullet in the neck in Spain and was nearly killed). One of the gentlest men I knew, Bill J, had made his way across Europe in hazardous, difficult conditions and fought from Spain in 37 to return to mainland Europe three years later only to be to be evacuated at Dunkirk, then back on D Day and across Europe til 1945 and spent the rest of his modest life advocating adult education and socialism. I loved that man. I am minded of Orwell's poem of Spain that ends:

"The thing I saw within your face
No power can disinherit
No bomb that ever burst
Shatters the crystal spirit"

It seems so strange and far away now, in this cynical world.

There has never been "socialism" as such. Social democracy within pluralist Capitalist states, yes with some decent results and some failures, and Marxist Leninism has attempted theory in conditions that were not strictly in accordance with Marx's own theory and ended in totalitarianism and lies and repression. No doubt Plekhanov would be saying: "I told you so", if he could....

Which is a long way of saying - Socialism isn't about levelling out, but excellence, determination and selflessness and seeing where it goes (with less, not more State control). Which we know won't happen, but we have glimpses.

Me? I run my own business which I started from scratch and am pretty successful. Yet I'm a socialist at heart. Disillusioned and tired, but I'm proud to have had good men as friends. And what it taught me is never cheat on those men. Never give up on hope for the future. Indeed, never, ever, give up, which has served me well as a maxim as I started off on a difficult road.

We ARE all brothers.
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Albert Camus (1913-1960)

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Post by Del » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:56 pm

The early Christian community (ACTS 2) was a socialist community. Everyone worked, and everyone shared.

The monastery is the way Christians have lived this ideal for centuries.

Modern Amish communities still strive for this ideal.... all work, all share with anyone in need.

The problem with Socialism is that this voluntary cooperation of individual sharing cannot be forced by government regulation and control.
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Post by TNLawPiper » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:23 pm

I wonder whose name was mentioned in this chain e-mail before Obama was elected.

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Post by FredS » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:35 pm

huddsbaggie (quoting Orwell) wrote:"The real objective of Socialism is human brotherhood. . .they want a world in which human beings love one another instead of swindling and murdering one another. "

We ARE all brothers.
Well, that pretty much sums up what socialism means to me too. It also illustrates the problem with socialism. That is, that human beings DON'T love one another. Brothers don't love brothers. Even when there were only four people on this rock, one hated another enough to murder him. Great men can make great sacrifices for great causes, but they'll never change the flawed nature of men. Nothing this side of heaven will change it. The entire history of humans proves that's it's foolish to think otherwise.
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Post by Onyx » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:40 pm

BalkanBoy wrote:I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.
Wow! What comes after? (I've seen the news, but I don't really know like someone who lived through it knows.)
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Post by Kerdy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:59 pm

FredS wrote:
huddsbaggie (quoting Orwell) wrote:"The real objective of Socialism is human brotherhood. . .they want a world in which human beings love one another instead of swindling and murdering one another. "

We ARE all brothers.
Well, that pretty much sums up what socialism means to me too. It also illustrates the problem with socialism. That is, that human beings DON'T love one another. Brothers don't love brothers. Even when there were only four people on this rock, one hated another enough to murder him. Great men can make great sacrifices for great causes, but they'll never change the flawed nature of men. Nothing this side of heaven will change it. The entire history of humans proves that's it's foolish to think otherwise.
+500
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by BalkanBoy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:01 pm

Onyx wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.
Wow! What comes after? (I've seen the news, but I don't really know like someone who lived through it knows.)
It is called "Transitional period". Most of the former communist countries are still in it. Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
Last edited by BalkanBoy on Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kerdy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:02 pm

huddsbaggie wrote:And yet men suffered and gave up their lives for "no reward" in the straightforward material sense. As George Orwell put it:

"The real objective of Socialism is human brotherhood. This is widely felt to be the case, though it is not usually said, or not said loudly enough. Men use up their lives in heart-breaking political struggles, or get themselves killed in civil wars, or tortured in the secret prisons of the Gestapo, not in order to establish some central-heated, air-conditioned, strip-lighted Paradise, but because they want a world in which human beings love one another instead of swindling and murdering one another. And they want that world as a first step. Where they go from there is not so certain, and the attempt to foresee it in detail merely confuses the issue. "

I have known men, mostly now dead, who fitted Orwell's description. Brave, modest, selfless, decent men, including my former Deputy Headmaster and older workmates and friends whom I met when I was starting work, who had fought against fascism in the thirties and forties and into peace time motivated not by hate but by a passion to end poverty, war and injustice - for no individual personal gain but, rather, belief and hope for a better world. Imagine - being prepared (no - to go way, way, out of your way) to suffer deprivation and possibly torture and to be willing to give up your life for something as stupid as love of your fellow man!

Some were well versed in political theory, but that wouldn't have motivated them to volunteer, like Orwell himself, for such bitter struggle. (Orwell himself took a bullet in the neck in Spain and was nearly killed). One of the gentlest men I knew, Bill J, had made his way across Europe in hazardous, difficult conditions and fought from Spain in 37 to return to mainland Europe three years later only to be to be evacuated at Dunkirk, then back on D Day and across Europe til 1945 and spent the rest of his modest life advocating adult education and socialism. I loved that man. I am minded of Orwell's poem of Spain that ends:

"The thing I saw within your face
No power can disinherit
No bomb that ever burst
Shatters the crystal spirit"

It seems so strange and far away now, in this cynical world.

There has never been "socialism" as such. Social democracy within pluralist Capitalist states, yes with some decent results and some failures, and Marxist Leninism has attempted theory in conditions that were not strictly in accordance with Marx's own theory and ended in totalitarianism and lies and repression. No doubt Plekhanov would be saying: "I told you so", if he could....

Which is a long way of saying - Socialism isn't about levelling out, but excellence, determination and selflessness and seeing where it goes (with less, not more State control). Which we know won't happen, but we have glimpses.

Me? I run my own business which I started from scratch and am pretty successful. Yet I'm a socialist at heart. Disillusioned and tired, but I'm proud to have had good men as friends. And what it taught me is never cheat on those men. Never give up on hope for the future. Indeed, never, ever, give up, which has served me well as a maxim as I started off on a difficult road.

We ARE all brothers.
Orwellian:

adjective

"of or like the society portrayed by Orwell in his novel Nineteen Eighty-four, in which a totalitarian state exercises almost total control over the public and private activities of the citizens"

No thanks! I will keep what we have.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by Kerdy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:03 pm

BalkanBoy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.
Wow! What comes after? (I've seen the news, but I don't really know like someone who lived through it knows.)
It is called "Transitional period". Most of the former communist countries are still in it. Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
It takes time. Look how long it took us to adapt and prosper.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by Onyx » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:12 pm

Kerdy wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.
Wow! What comes after? (I've seen the news, but I don't really know like someone who lived through it knows.)
It is called "Transitional period". Most of the former communist countries are still in it. Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
It takes time. Look how long it took us to adapt and prosper.
Yes, Kerdy. But it's quite possible that the prosperous period will be shorter lived than the time of adaptation! Other countries may be taking the approach that they want to learn from the US model, but not necessarily emulate it.

Following the awful transition to a free market seen in the Eastern Block countries, China is taking a much more measured approach. China is orchestrating a tightly controlled transition to a free market. (A bit of a contradiction in terms, I know.) But the government is allowing incremental changes so as to avoid a collapse into chaos.
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Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:36 pm

+JMJ+
BalkanBoy wrote:Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
The Eastern Bloc is "free" to be exploited by Western interests. Now they have the "freedom" to eat McDonalds, wear Nike, and drink Starbucks.

Part of the reason as to why we are afflicted with Obama is due to this hubris of the U.S.A. The destructive paradigms of American Exceptionalism, Mercantilism, and Cultural Imperialism are now bearing their final, bitter fruit.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Post by TNLawPiper » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:43 pm

Who's advocating for this in America?

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Post by Thunktank » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:43 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
BalkanBoy wrote:Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
The Eastern Bloc is "free" to be exploited by Western interests. Now they have the "freedom" to eat McDonalds, wear Nike, and drink Starbucks.

Part of the reason as to why we are afflicted with Obama is due to this hubris of the U.S.A. The destructive paradigms of American Exceptionalism, Mercantilism, and Cultural Imperialism are now bearing their final, bitter fruit.
+1

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Post by CaptainBlack » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:24 pm

What's wrong with the freedom to enjoy McDonalds, Nike, and Starbucks?

As far as I know, no one is being forced into choosing to spend their money there.

I for one, love the occassional Egg McMuffin sandwich and Starbucks coffee. I'm on a tight budget so Nikes are out of the question but I buy my sneaker at Walmart.

And if you're interested in demonizing, Big Sneaker, Big Coffee, and Big Mac, remember that by enjoying a pipe, you're supporting Big Tobacco.

I like the freedom of choice and would prefer to make my own decisions, thank you.

Promoting the brother of man is a noble goal. And it is the responsibility of the individual and the church to function this way.

God wants us to feed the poor and help those in need because we want to, not because we are forced to.

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Post by Thunktank » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:57 pm

The Greek Fisherman

A boat docked in a tiny Greek village. An American tourist complimented the Greek fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them.

“Not very long,” answered the Greek.

“But then, why didn’t you stay out longer and catch more?” asked the American.

The Greek explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family.

The American asked, “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

“I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with my wife. In the evenings I go into the village to see my friends, dance a little, play the bouzouki, and sing a few songs. I have a full life.”

The American interrupted, “I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you.”

You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to Athens, Los Angeles, or even New York City! From there you can direct your huge enterprise.”

“How long would that take?” asked the Greek.

“Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years,” replied the American.

“And after that?”

“Afterwards? That’s when it gets really interesting,” answered the American, laughing. When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks and make millions!”

“Millions? Really? And after that?”

“After that you’ll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the coast, sleep late, play with your grandchildren, catch a few fish, take a siesta with your wife, and spend your evenings singing, dancing and playing the bouzouki with your friends.”
That is a story sent to me once by my priest.

I have walked down the streets of historic European cities and saw the Golden Arches standing out like a sore thumb. It's wrong on so many levels <redacted_emoji> :(

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Post by Kerdy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:31 pm

Onyx wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.
Wow! What comes after? (I've seen the news, but I don't really know like someone who lived through it knows.)
It is called "Transitional period". Most of the former communist countries are still in it. Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
It takes time. Look how long it took us to adapt and prosper.
Yes, Kerdy. But it's quite possible that the prosperous period will be shorter lived than the time of adaptation! Other countries may be taking the approach that they want to learn from the US model, but not necessarily emulate it.

Following the awful transition to a free market seen in the Eastern Block countries, China is taking a much more measured approach. China is orchestrating a tightly controlled transition to a free market. (A bit of a contradiction in terms, I know.) But the government is allowing incremental changes so as to avoid a collapse into chaos.
Those countries are free to follow whatever path they choose. The key part is they are FREE to choose.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by BalkanBoy » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:14 am

Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:I was relatively young when the socialism failed, but I've passed my youth during the F period. Wasn't that bad though. The worst thing about the comunism is what comes after.
Wow! What comes after? (I've seen the news, but I don't really know like someone who lived through it knows.)
It is called "Transitional period". Most of the former communist countries are still in it. Combination of the worst things inherited from the communism, and those acquired from the west. Hunger, poverty, deceipt, hatered, and Bentleys and Ferraries along with it.
It takes time. Look how long it took us to adapt and prosper.
Yes, Kerdy. But it's quite possible that the prosperous period will be shorter lived than the time of adaptation! Other countries may be taking the approach that they want to learn from the US model, but not necessarily emulate it.

Following the awful transition to a free market seen in the Eastern Block countries, China is taking a much more measured approach. China is orchestrating a tightly controlled transition to a free market. (A bit of a contradiction in terms, I know.) But the government is allowing incremental changes so as to avoid a collapse into chaos.
Those countries are free to follow whatever path they choose. The key part is they are FREE to choose.
And if some of them fail to choose freely, than the bombs come dowon. Ask the serbs.

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Post by Onyx » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:29 am

CaptainBlack wrote:What's wrong with the freedom to enjoy McDonalds, Nike, and Starbucks?

As far as I know, no one is being forced into choosing to spend their money there.

I for one, love the occassional Egg McMuffin sandwich and Starbucks coffee. I'm on a tight budget so Nikes are out of the question but I buy my sneaker at Walmart.

And if you're interested in demonizing, Big Sneaker, Big Coffee, and Big Mac, remember that by enjoying a pipe, you're supporting Big Tobacco.

I like the freedom of choice and would prefer to make my own decisions, thank you.

Promoting the brother of man is a noble goal. And it is the responsibility of the individual and the church to function this way.

God wants us to feed the poor and help those in need because we want to, not because we are forced to.
This is a very interesting question. What's wrong with Mc D's? I guess it's worth traveling around a little to see some perspective on this. Walking through New York City, the options for eating are as limitless as your budget. If you've got money, you can eat the most delicious food around. Whereas in small town Pennsylvania, the options seem to merge together. The first town offers KFC, McD, Starbucks. The next town is the same with a Dunk'n Donuts. Freedom of the individual means that you can buy fresh meat and vege and cook it yourself (even raise the stuff if your game...) and it also means that big money chain stores buyout the main street. Well, yes, that's freedom. If the shoppers wanted to buy from the little independent, it would still be there, but they chose the chain store, and that's what they got.

Now drive through small town England. Some of those quaint little independent stores behind crooked brickwork on cobbled streets are still there. You can still find the post-card villages. But half the main street is now chain store fast-food, pharmacy, grocery, supermarket... Once again, if the local people wanted to support the locally run independent stores, they'd still be there. But somehow over the decades, the big international names have pushed the little guys to edge, and off the main street.

Now some people ask themselves, is this what we want. Why are we doing this to our towns? Why are we replacing local traditions with deep-fried, over-salted, preservative-laden pseudo-food? We don't want to be fat, but we keep eating this stuff... why do we do it to ourselves? What is this environment we are creating for our kids?

What's wrong with the freedom to enjoy Mc Donalds? Nothing. Why are we the fattest people on the planet?** I guess the flesh is weak. We bring upon ourselves things that we don't want.

** recent studies have indicated that Australians have now overtaken Americans as the most obese people in the world. Sorry America, but Australians don't like to come second!
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