THE CATHOLIC THREAD

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:39 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:23 am
Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:08 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:03 am
Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:00 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I believe the Shroud is authentic.

Just waiting for science and the Church to come to a conclusion.
Did you read the article about it? Or just the political stuff?
Where am I supposed to go to find this article? I see no link here.

I did not follow any of the links to the political stuff, either. It is clear that they do not understand American Christians, and they aren't grinding their axes on me.
Oh, I thought you'd actually read the articles from Crux. Your posts make more sense now that you admit that you haven't. It's on that site. You know, Catholic news and all. Surprised Wosbald missed it, too, frankly.
Okay... read the Shroud article. I had heard of the "trauma and torture" markers in the blood before. I'm not sure what is new about this. Just more confirmation, I guess. Glad to see it.

And I read John Allen's article. He is... um, interesting.... as a writer. He threads the line between partisan National Catholic Reporter and authentic Catholic journalist. Father Z respects John Allen, which gives Allen a bit of traditionalist credibility.

I am going to a seminar by Fr. Z today. It is supposed to be about 10 years of Summorum Pontifium, but Fr. Z spent many years in Rome and he stays in close contact. He knows the minds of those guys. We might get him to talk about bit about how the Romans in the curia see American Catholics.

I shall report later.

Meanwhile, I concur with the conclusion of this article in Crux:
Spadaro and Figueroa’s theological assessment of the “ecumenism of hate” does not bear scrutiny. Their charges will dissipate quickly enough for lack of substantive argument.

Why is the no substantive argument?
Sporado & Figueroa wrote:However, the most dangerous prospect for this strange ecumenism is attributable to its xenophobic and Islamophobic vision that wants walls and purifying deportations. The word ‘ecumenism’ transforms into a paradox, into an ‘ecumenism of hate.’ Intolerance is a celestial mark of purism. Reductionism is the exegetical methodology. Ultraliteralism is its hermeneutical key.”
All that would certainly be alarming. But is it happening? Who are “those who profess to be Catholic” who “dream of a theocratic type of state”? What journals expound their thoughts? In what faculties do they teach? What books have they written? What movements does their thought animate?
None of that exists.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:53 am

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
Oh, I read it. I was gonna post it. That is, before this curious dustup detoured my attention. Was planning on posting it today in Science in the News, actually.




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:57 am

wosbald wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:53 am
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
Oh, I read it. I was gonna post it. That is, before this curious dustup detoured my attention. Was planning on posting it today in Science in the News, actually.
Good place to put it. Do so, please.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:01 pm

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:57 am
wosbald wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:53 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
Oh, I read it. I was gonna post it. That is, before this curious dustup detoured my attention. Was planning on posting it today in Science in the News, actually.
Good place to put it. Do so, please.
Done.




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:59 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:22 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I tend to avoid articles about relics and controversies surrounding shrines. I don't understand them, and they sometimes bug me out. My distrust of the mystical from my Evangelical upbringing has not been sufficiently purged.
Healthy attitude to have, I'd say. I was just surprised that we were banging away at Catholic policies and didn't notice an article of possible interest to lay Catholics.
The Shroud is interesting, just maybe legit in my mind. More so than many other things that go on, that's for sure. I'm very skeptical and tend to see these sorts of things in a more "natural" way. I can't help that. Having said that, some of this stuff does produce fruitful pilgrimages and faith. But some of it is an elaborate ruse too. Sometimes I suppose, "worthy of belief" means good can come from it and local bishops wanted to believe it. . .

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:28 am

Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:39 am
I am going to a seminar by Fr. Z today. It is supposed to be about 10 years of Summorum Pontifium, but Fr. Z spent many years in Rome and he stays in close contact. He knows the minds of those guys. We might get him to talk about bit about how the Romans in the curia see American Catholics.

I shall report later.
Fr. Z discoursed for a couple of hours on the Liturgy and how our worship forms the way we pray and believe.

I also learned that Fr. Z worked for one of the Congregations in Rome for a time, in the same building with Cardinal Ratzinger. He had many opportunities to listen and learn from Ratzinger. Msgr. Ratzinger was an expert advisor during the Second Vatican Council. He was concerned about how the liturgical theorists had hijacked the intention of the Council in their zeal to throw out the old and artificially bring in a new Liturgy.

Long before he was made Pope, Ratzinger desired to see the Old form of the Mass living alongside the Novus Ordo, so that the two forms could organically inform each other with the best of each rite.

==============================

I asked Fr. Z if he knew about the Jesuit article. He had blogged about it briefly....

Fr. Z's view is that some Jesuits in Rome have said some disparaging things about Catholics in America. This news is as shocking as a headline announcing that the sun came up this morning. They are always complaining about America.

"But isn't "ecumenism of hate" an awful thing to say of us?" I asked. The writers accuse us of "xenophobic and Islamophobic vision that wants walls and purifying deportations."

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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:47 am

I have no interest in conversion to Catholo-Republicanism. The more I read Del's posts, the more I understand that article.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:05 am

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:47 am
I have no interest in conversion to Catholo-Republicanism. The more I read Del's posts, the more I understand that article.
We could box him up in a crate and ship him off to Spadaro as a case-study. He could be Patient Zero.




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:45 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:05 am
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:47 am
I have no interest in conversion to Catholo-Republicanism. The more I read Del's posts, the more I understand that article.
We could box him up in a crate and ship him off to Spadaro as a case-study. He could be Patient Zero.
I would fascinate them.

"You favor amnesty for illegal immigrants, you support refugees from persecution by Islamic extremists, you harbor no misgivings about peaceful Islamic immigrants, you have no opinion about "building a wall," and yet you continue to enthusiastically support that vile Mr. Trump? Why is that? We do not understand!"

-- Well, maybe Mr. Trump and those who support him are not xenophobic, islamophobic, nor does anyone desire the purify America by mass deportations. Maybe there is no collusion of working-class Catholics and redneck Evangelicals... Maybe we just want to be unmolested in living our faith, educating our children, and we hope that good jobs will be available for us to support our families.

"That can't be! You must have something hateful within you. We will enjoy finding it. Prepare the PROBES!"
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am

For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
I don't know. Are you good with it?

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:12 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
I don't know. Are you good with it?
I assume youre asking about the Novus Ordo. I must and do confirm to the Church. I'm not some Latin Mass only firebreather running around condemning the pope in Rome because of Vatican II. But I'm also not a big fan of certain parishes desire to rush through the N.O. to get to the gee-shuckin' in the parking lot. I will travel to avoid those. A N.O. mass can be performed with great reverence and should be. Being in an affluent neighborhood might be a problem, too--mustn't offend the comfortable people.

Other days, I'm going through the motions with my mind elsewhere. Those days it's me, you know? Doesn't matter if it's E.F. and GregorIan Chant or N.O. and a negro spiritual. Those days I don't take Communion.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:18 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:12 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
I don't know. Are you good with it?
I assume youre asking about the Novus Ordo. I must and do confirm to the Church. I'm not some Latin Mass only firebreather running around condemning the pope in Rome because of Vatican II. But I'm also not a big fan of certain parishes desire to rush through the N.O. to get to the gee-shuckin' in the parking lot. I will travel to avoid those. A N.O. mass can be performed with great reverence and should be. Being in an affluent neighborhood might be a problem, too--mustn't offend the comfortable people.

Other days, I'm going through the motions with my mind elsewhere. Those days it's me, you know? Doesn't matter if it's E.F. and GregorIan Chant or N.O. and a negro spiritual. Those days I don't take Communion.
I don't know if it's really the Novus Ordo that I'm having questions about. That in and of itself doesn't seem out of bounds per se. It's things like obviously Protestant hymes at Mass. Protestants don't believe in the Mass, so how are their songs and tunes going to take us there?

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:33 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:18 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:12 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
I don't know. Are you good with it?
I assume youre asking about the Novus Ordo. I must and do confirm to the Church. I'm not some Latin Mass only firebreather running around condemning the pope in Rome because of Vatican II. But I'm also not a big fan of certain parishes desire to rush through the N.O. to get to the gee-shuckin' in the parking lot. I will travel to avoid those. A N.O. mass can be performed with great reverence and should be. Being in an affluent neighborhood might be a problem, too--mustn't offend the comfortable people.

Other days, I'm going through the motions with my mind elsewhere. Those days it's me, you know? Doesn't matter if it's E.F. and GregorIan Chant or N.O. and a negro spiritual. Those days I don't take Communion.
I don't know if it's really the Novus Ordo that I'm having questions about. That in and of itself doesn't seem out of bounds per se. It's things like obviously Protestant hymes at Mass. Protestants don't believe in the Mass, so how are their songs and tunes going to take us there?
Forgive me for not knowing your story. When I first got here, you were Orthodox. Were you ever Catholic?
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:33 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:18 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:12 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
I don't know. Are you good with it?
I assume youre asking about the Novus Ordo. I must and do confirm to the Church. I'm not some Latin Mass only firebreather running around condemning the pope in Rome because of Vatican II. But I'm also not a big fan of certain parishes desire to rush through the N.O. to get to the gee-shuckin' in the parking lot. I will travel to avoid those. A N.O. mass can be performed with great reverence and should be. Being in an affluent neighborhood might be a problem, too--mustn't offend the comfortable people.

Other days, I'm going through the motions with my mind elsewhere. Those days it's me, you know? Doesn't matter if it's E.F. and GregorIan Chant or N.O. and a negro spiritual. Those days I don't take Communion.
I don't know if it's really the Novus Ordo that I'm having questions about. That in and of itself doesn't seem out of bounds per se. It's things like obviously Protestant hymes at Mass. Protestants don't believe in the Mass, so how are their songs and tunes going to take us there?
Forgive me for not knowing your story. When I first got here, you were Orthodox. Were you ever Catholic?
No. I did do RCIA and seriously considered it about 15 years ago, before going to the Orthodox church. I have also paid a fair amount of attention to ecumenical issues between the RCC and Orthodox through the years. The Great Schism really hurts me sometimes. It hurts my faith and trust. At the same time I like both, and why not? They are almost the same, yet different. Both claim the same thing, that they are the church. Some folks seem very good at thinking at the parish level alone, meanwhile others of us see the Churches worldwide and wonder how they fit. Why do you ask?

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Del
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:14 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:47 am
I have no interest in conversion to Catholo-Republicanism. The more I read Del's posts, the more I understand that article.
Interesting. I do not ever think of myself as a "Republican."

It's just that the Democrats' dogmatic devotion to the Culture of Death rules them out.
And since this is a Protestant nation with only two Parties to speak of, I am left looking like a Republican.

If we were talking about politics, I could express much frustration at the Republicans in Congress.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:59 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:33 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:18 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:12 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
I don't know. Are you good with it?
I assume youre asking about the Novus Ordo. I must and do confirm to the Church. I'm not some Latin Mass only firebreather running around condemning the pope in Rome because of Vatican II. But I'm also not a big fan of certain parishes desire to rush through the N.O. to get to the gee-shuckin' in the parking lot. I will travel to avoid those. A N.O. mass can be performed with great reverence and should be. Being in an affluent neighborhood might be a problem, too--mustn't offend the comfortable people.

Other days, I'm going through the motions with my mind elsewhere. Those days it's me, you know? Doesn't matter if it's E.F. and GregorIan Chant or N.O. and a negro spiritual. Those days I don't take Communion.
I don't know if it's really the Novus Ordo that I'm having questions about. That in and of itself doesn't seem out of bounds per se. It's things like obviously Protestant hymes at Mass. Protestants don't believe in the Mass, so how are their songs and tunes going to take us there?
Forgive me for not knowing your story. When I first got here, you were Orthodox. Were you ever Catholic?
No. I did do RCIA and seriously considered it about 15 years ago, before going to the Orthodox church. I have also paid a fair amount of attention to ecumenical issues between the RCC and Orthodox through the years. The Great Schism really hurts me sometimes. It hurts my faith and trust. At the same time I like both, and why not? They are almost the same, yet different. Both claim the same thing, that they are the church. Some folks seem very good at thinking at the parish level alone, meanwhile others of us see the Churches worldwide and wonder how they fit. Why do you ask?
To understand a little better. I've been curious why, as you are returning to faith, you're doing it in a different communion. And I'm very curious why, when singing a hymn, the authorship bothers you. If the words fit the message of the day, I honestly have done nothing but raise an eyebrow. As a general rule, modern church music is pretty atrocious.

The question of the East-West split doesn't much enter my mind. Personally, I think the pride of man has done more to split the Church than theological differences, although I acknowledge that there are deep theological differences. I'd like to someday be able to fulfill my Sunday obligation by going to an Orthodox church.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by A_Morley » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:04 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:59 pm
I'd like to someday be able to fulfill my Sunday obligation by going to an Orthodox church.
Well, there's always the Byzantine Catholic churches.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:30 pm

I
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:59 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:33 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:18 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:12 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:50 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am
For me, the Byzantine Catholic church is a bit far somedays, not horribly so, but far enough not to go to take on the trip. Plus it would be nice to get involved in a local Catholic community in my neighborhood, so off off we went to the nearby Latin rite Mass yesterday. I was happy to have my whole family there willingly, no one was compelled to go, but by their own desire.

Then I witnessed the Mass.

*sigh*

I'm trying so hard not to be too critical, but really?

It's hard enough for me to embrace the local Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy that has been substantially truncated from it's original form. But at least the chants raise up the soul and the icons remind the faithful of where they are.

I've been to a couple of Extraordinary forms of Mass, again beautifully expressed and much like the Divine Liturgy in that it directs the congregation to a holy place.

But this ordinary form is the epitome of efficiency and much of it borrowed from the local non-Catholics who don't believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass. Everything was casual, and I left wondering if I had gone to Mass at all! What the hell have American Catholics done to their beautiful churches and why? :confused:

Right now I just miss the Orthodox Church. I know, I know it doesn't have the Pope, but the Pope hasn't been able to stop the "small t" eradications of the Mass that somehow just seems to have offended the Tradition anyway.

This just brings back memories from before. I'm sure this is just old hat for the rest of you.

Just my .02 cents.

:(

Btw, I'm not actually taking communion yet. I'm giving that time. The Byzantine Priest told me that I could make my statement of faith following reconciliation whenever I was ready, he suggested a few months with regular attendance. I can skip RCIA.
Is it the Church, the church, or you that's the problem, thunk?
I don't know. Are you good with it?
I assume youre asking about the Novus Ordo. I must and do confirm to the Church. I'm not some Latin Mass only firebreather running around condemning the pope in Rome because of Vatican II. But I'm also not a big fan of certain parishes desire to rush through the N.O. to get to the gee-shuckin' in the parking lot. I will travel to avoid those. A N.O. mass can be performed with great reverence and should be. Being in an affluent neighborhood might be a problem, too--mustn't offend the comfortable people.

Other days, I'm going through the motions with my mind elsewhere. Those days it's me, you know? Doesn't matter if it's E.F. and GregorIan Chant or N.O. and a negro spiritual. Those days I don't take Communion.
I don't know if it's really the Novus Ordo that I'm having questions about. That in and of itself doesn't seem out of bounds per se. It's things like obviously Protestant hymes at Mass. Protestants don't believe in the Mass, so how are their songs and tunes going to take us there?
Forgive me for not knowing your story. When I first got here, you were Orthodox. Were you ever Catholic?
No. I did do RCIA and seriously considered it about 15 years ago, before going to the Orthodox church. I have also paid a fair amount of attention to ecumenical issues between the RCC and Orthodox through the years. The Great Schism really hurts me sometimes. It hurts my faith and trust. At the same time I like both, and why not? They are almost the same, yet different. Both claim the same thing, that they are the church. Some folks seem very good at thinking at the parish level alone, meanwhile others of us see the Churches worldwide and wonder how they fit. Why do you ask?
To understand a little better. I've been curious why, as you are returning to faith, you're doing it in a different communion. And I'm very curious why, when singing a hymn, the authorship bothers you. If the words fit the message of the day, I honestly have done nothing but raise an eyebrow. As a general rule, modern church music is pretty atrocious.

The question of the East-West split doesn't much enter my mind. Personally, I think the pride of man has done more to split the Church than theological differences, although I acknowledge that there are deep theological differences. I'd like to someday be able to fulfill my Sunday obligation by going to an Orthodox church.
For starters, I don't believe there is very much difference in theology other than expression and concentration. Cultural variations that evolved over centuries is most of what is different. And when the Orthodox refute Catholic doctrine, they very often end up cutting out some of their own theological developement, or simply don't prefer subjectively, the Catholic method of expressing doctrine. I've taken a fair amount of time learning both, I see little concern. It's splitting hairs at best. The Filioque and Papal primacy have been the two main sticking points, both of which I don't find worthy of continued schism for various reason I won't get into here, suffice is to say that some things are not clearly understood at first. The reason the schism continues above all else is habit and lack of desire by most Orthodox coupled with a long memory of bad events.

Now with that backdrop, let me try and better explain the hymes. I'm sorry if I come across as being difficult over it. Like "differences" in theology which is more a matter of concentration and style, rather than substantive differences, Liturgy preferences may also be hugely subjective. However, there are universal traditions concerning the Mass/Divine Liturgies. Great saints took great pains to put them together and they followed a set series of events passed down via Tradition. The hymes alone were just a piece of my overal concern. I have not spent much time learning the particulars of the Novus Ordo. Who wrote it and why? At first glance it appears to be a huge leap of change from the Trinitine Mass that came before it. Of course, Masses and Liturgical traditions do vary in style historically through history. So perhaps I just find using Protestant hymns at Mass off putting, nothing more. There were other things as well, but I probably said more than enough. It's not my intention to cause trouble with the faithful who simply accept the current state of the Mass. The Masses and Divine Liturgies and music thereof that I'm used to however, aren't modern and atrocious.

Now why am I thinking of changing communions? Well, as I said already, it hardly matters in matters of faith. Both hold the same faith anyway. Of course many Orthodox in particular are still convinced that the RCC is heretical, I'm sorry but I just can't see it that way anymore. Meanwhile the various autocephalous Orthodox churches frequently interrupt communion with each other and the Ecumenical Patriarch over territorial infractions, while a general council has been called decades ago, it still hasn't come close to happening. But there are matters that are more subjective in my decision. Not the least of which is that my wife is much more comfortable at Roman Catholic Churches than the Orthodox ones due to her own upbringing in the Catholic Church. So for me, joining the Byzantine Catholic Church allows me to maintain the subjective stuff I prefer in the Orthodox Church while also being able to participate fully in the RCC which I tend to believe the See of Peter presides in love.

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