THE CATHOLIC THREAD

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:01 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:25 am
+JMJ+

No, Virginia, there’s no ‘secret commission’ on Humanae Vitae [Commentary]
Image
A banner referencing "Humanae Vitae," the 1968 encyclical of Blessed Paul VI, is seen in the crowd at the conclusion of the beatification Mass of Blessed Paul celebrated by Pope Francis in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican Oct. 19. The Mass also concluded the extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the family. Blessed Paul, who served as pope from 1963-1978, is most remembered for "Humanae Vitae," which affirmed the church's teaching against artificial contraception. (Credit: Paul Haring/CNS..)

Rumors of late, circulated by mostly conservative blogs, have suggested that Pope Francis and Italian Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia have created a secret commission to reevaluate the teaching of 'Humanae Vitae,' Pope Paul VI's 1968 encyclical on birth control. As it turns out, establishing the truth of the matter is even easier than generating the conspiracy theory in the first place.

[…]

According to the rumors, a commission to review the document was allegedly put together under the cover of darkness by Pope Francis and Italian Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia, who last year was appointed by the pontiff to head the Vatican’s Academy for Life and to serve as Grand Chancellor of the John Paul II Pontifical Institute.

Paglia has denied that any such commission exists. Speaking recently with Argentine journalist Andrés Beltramo Álvarez, Paglia said, “There’s no commission, that’s all been made up.”

This interview was published online on July 13 in the Spanish Alfa y Omega. Paglia himself provided a translation into English via Twitter.

Yet on Tuesday, Vatican Radio published a separate interview with Father Gilfredo Marengo, a professor of theological anthropology at the St. John Paul II institute in Rome. Responding to questions, he said he leads a “research group” on Humane Vitae.

That raised some eyebrows, since Marengo is precisely the man the rumors had identified as leader of the alleged “reinterpreting-the-document” commission. So, I picked up the phone, called the John Paul II Pontifical Institute, and asked to speak with him.

He wasn’t there, but the person on the other side of the line happily gave me his email. I wrote, and not ten minutes later I had a response.

Marengo told me that, together with colleagues, he’s part of a research group on Humane Vitae, but it “has nothing to do with ‘reforming the encyclical’.”

Instead, the group is going through archives and documents that have been preserved from that era to reconstruct the writing process behind the encyclical.

“This is a historical-critical investigation work. Nothing else,” he said.

Emphasizing what he told Vatican Radio, Marengo said he sees “no need nor value in reforming what Humane Vitae teaches: At the beginning of the interview, I recognize its ‘prophetic’ value.” …
There will always be people who do not understand that the Apostolic Church is the gift that Christ instituted for us and for our salvation, so that we will always have the TRVTH as God has given to us.

Humanae vitae is not some new rule that Pope Paul invented. It is the ancient Apostolic teaching about Christian love, marriage, and procreation -- unchanged. It was simply restated for our current time and in the face to new technology and renewed rejection.

The encyclical in 1968 was prophetic. Pope Paul warned what would happen to cultures that re-embraced the pagan lust for contraception:
- There would be an overall lowering of morality in the culture.
- There would be an increase in adultery, divorce, and children conceived outside of marriage.
- Women would lose their status in society, and become objects of amusement for men.
- Governments would apply pressure and coercion to families, subsidizing or even forcing contraception and abortions.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:18 am

+JMJ+

At his jubilee’s end, why Padre Pio may be a perfect Francis-era saint
Image
Padre Pio, now formally known as Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, the great 20th century Capuchin mystic, stigmatic and healer. (Credit: Stock image.)

Friday marks the end of a special jubilee year devoted to Padre Pio, which began last July 28 on the 100th anniversary of his arrival in San Giovanni Rotondo. Despite some surface incongruities, Padre Pio may be a perfect Pope Francis-era saint in the way he incarnates popular religion, concern for the poor and the primacy of mercy -- showing that being a "Francis priest" isn't about politics but pastoring.

[…]

At one level, it’s easy to think that Padre Pio isn’t exactly the ideal saint to promote under Pope Francis.

To begin with, Francis isn’t St. Pope John Paul II, who had a mystical streak a mile wide, and who found the supernatural phenomena surrounding Padre Pio electrifying. Francis has more of a down-to-earth spirituality, and while he doubtless accepts the possibility of inexplicable gifts such as the stigmata (the spontaneous appearance of the five wounds of Christ in one’s own body) or bilocation, equally probably, they aren’t the first thing he thinks of when he contemplates sanctity.

Moreover, Francis is usually seen as a centrist-to-progressive on many matters, while Padre Pio was a staunch conservative both politically and theologically.

For beginners, Padre Pio celebrated Mass in Latin according to the pre-Vatican II rite his entire life, receiving Vatican permission to continue to do so even after the council. In that sense, he represents a kind of ecclesiastical throw-back that could leave Francis a bit cold.

Further, Padre Pio famously almost never left his friary at San Giovanni Rotondo, but among the rare occasions when he did was to vote for the Christian Democrats, which for most of the 1940s, 50s and 60s, were the conservative bulwark against a Socialist/Communist conquest of Italy.

[…]

Yet upon closer examination, there are at least three reasons why Padre Pio is actually a terrific saint for the Francis era.

First, Padre Pio incarnates popular religion. He was viewed with deep suspicion by ecclesiastical authorities during his life, including several popes, and investigated multiple times by his own Capuchin order and by the Holy Office, the precursor to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Yet people kept flocking to him, attending his Masses, asking him to hear their confessions, and just wanting to be in his presence.

[…]

Second, Padre Pio was all about the poor. The point of building the Casa Sollievo della Sofferenza in the first place was to provide the same high-quality medical care available to rich Italians to the poor.

[…]

Third, and perhaps most fundamentally, both Francis and Padre Pio are profoundly devoted to mercy.

[…]

Given all that, perhaps what the juxtaposition between Padre Pio and Pope Francis really suggests is this: Being a “Francis priest” is less about whether one leans left or right, and more about the fundamental idea of being close to people, especially the poor and the suffering. Whatever political expression those instincts may take is, perhaps, almost after-the-fact.

In that sense, arguably Padre Pio is a perfect embodiment of the Francis ethos, a figure reminding us this isn’t fundamentally about politics but pastoring - and that’s something that won’t be any less true tomorrow than today, as the formal jubilee draws to a close.




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:31 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:18 am
+JMJ+

At his jubilee’s end, why Padre Pio may be a perfect Francis-era saint
Image
Padre Pio, now formally known as Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, the great 20th century Capuchin mystic, stigmatic and healer. (Credit: Stock image.)

Friday marks the end of a special jubilee year devoted to Padre Pio, which began last July 28 on the 100th anniversary of his arrival in San Giovanni Rotondo. Despite some surface incongruities, Padre Pio may be a perfect Pope Francis-era saint in the way he incarnates popular religion, concern for the poor and the primacy of mercy -- showing that being a "Francis priest" isn't about politics but pastoring.

[…]

At one level, it’s easy to think that Padre Pio isn’t exactly the ideal saint to promote under Pope Francis.

To begin with, Francis isn’t St. Pope John Paul II, who had a mystical streak a mile wide, and who found the supernatural phenomena surrounding Padre Pio electrifying. Francis has more of a down-to-earth spirituality, and while he doubtless accepts the possibility of inexplicable gifts such as the stigmata (the spontaneous appearance of the five wounds of Christ in one’s own body) or bilocation, equally probably, they aren’t the first thing he thinks of when he contemplates sanctity.

Moreover, Francis is usually seen as a centrist-to-progressive on many matters, while Padre Pio was a staunch conservative both politically and theologically.

For beginners, Padre Pio celebrated Mass in Latin according to the pre-Vatican II rite his entire life, receiving Vatican permission to continue to do so even after the council. In that sense, he represents a kind of ecclesiastical throw-back that could leave Francis a bit cold.

Further, Padre Pio famously almost never left his friary at San Giovanni Rotondo, but among the rare occasions when he did was to vote for the Christian Democrats, which for most of the 1940s, 50s and 60s, were the conservative bulwark against a Socialist/Communist conquest of Italy.

[…]

Yet upon closer examination, there are at least three reasons why Padre Pio is actually a terrific saint for the Francis era.

First, Padre Pio incarnates popular religion. He was viewed with deep suspicion by ecclesiastical authorities during his life, including several popes, and investigated multiple times by his own Capuchin order and by the Holy Office, the precursor to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Yet people kept flocking to him, attending his Masses, asking him to hear their confessions, and just wanting to be in his presence.

[…]

Second, Padre Pio was all about the poor. The point of building the Casa Sollievo della Sofferenza in the first place was to provide the same high-quality medical care available to rich Italians to the poor.

[…]

Third, and perhaps most fundamentally, both Francis and Padre Pio are profoundly devoted to mercy.

[…]

Given all that, perhaps what the juxtaposition between Padre Pio and Pope Francis really suggests is this: Being a “Francis priest” is less about whether one leans left or right, and more about the fundamental idea of being close to people, especially the poor and the suffering. Whatever political expression those instincts may take is, perhaps, almost after-the-fact.

In that sense, arguably Padre Pio is a perfect embodiment of the Francis ethos, a figure reminding us this isn’t fundamentally about politics but pastoring - and that’s something that won’t be any less true tomorrow than today, as the formal jubilee draws to a close.
John Allen's Crux makes Catholicism sound like it is primarily a political movement.

Such as this totally unnecessary effort to portray both Padre Pio and Pope Francis first as political tokens.... who just might have something to contribute to those who seek holiness.

If Padre Pio is the perfect saint for the "Francis era," then he should talk about how the examples of both men lead us closer to Christ, and how they help us to live as better Christians.

Their political opinions are worse than irrelevant... that sort of thinking is counter-productive.

And since Allen's target audience seems to be ignorant Catholics (who don't know what the stigmata are as they read an essay on Padre Pio), he would do well to stick to the basics before he layers nuance of politics.
Francis has more of a down-to-earth spirituality, and while he doubtless accepts the possibility of inexplicable gifts such as the stigmata (the spontaneous appearance of the five wounds of Christ in one’s own body) or bilocation, equally probably, they aren’t the first thing he thinks of when he contemplates sanctity.
==================================

If we sum up all of Vatican II into a simple theme, it is the universal call to holiness (Lumen gentium, Chapter V). As Allen seems to think that Padre Pio's devotion to the Latin Mass is anti-Francis neanderthals, he should work hard to assert the true meaning of Vatican II.
For beginners, Padre Pio celebrated Mass in Latin according to the pre-Vatican II rite his entire life, receiving Vatican permission to continue to do so even after the council. In that sense, he represents a kind of ecclesiastical throw-back that could leave Francis a bit cold.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:27 am

+JMJ+

What the Holy See told the UN about Middle East Christians
Image
Credit: dinosmichail/Shutterstock.

New York City, N.Y., Jul 28, 2017 / 06:04 am (CNA/EWTN News).- The Middle East needs peace, human rights, and the continued presence of Christians, a Holy See diplomat told the U.N. Security Council Tuesday.

“Christian communities have existed for over two thousand years in that region and have peacefully coexisted with the other communities. The Holy See urges the international community, through the Security Council, not to forget them,” Monsignor Simon Kassas, interim chargé d’affaires of the Holy See’s permanent observer mission to the United Nations, said July 25.

“The Holy See believes that the rule of law, including respect for religious freedom and equality before the law based on the principle of citizenship and regardless of one’s race, ethnic origin or religion, is fundamental toward the achievement and maintenance of the peaceful and fruitful coexistence among individuals, communities and nations in the whole region and beyond,” he continued.

[…]

Turning to the Israeli-Palestine conflict, Msgr. Kassas said the Palestinian question is debated four times a year and this debate sometimes sounds like “broken records,” but this will continue until a solution is found. He added: “notwithstanding the multiple challenges facing the Middle East today, the Israeli-Palestinian peace process cannot be allowed to slip out of the top priorities of the international community and this council.”

The Holy See voiced support for a two-state solution in which both the Israel and a Palestinian state exist side-by-side “in peace within internationally recognized borders.”

“For this process to happen and succeed, Israelis and Palestinians must agree on substantial steps to lower tensions and de-escalate the violence on the ground,” Msgr. Kassas said. This includes refraining from actions, including actions regarding settlements, that contradict their stated commitment to a negotiated solution.

He cited Pope Francis’ exhortation to pray for peace and to promote a culture of non-violence so that everyone can bequeath “a culture capable of devising strategies of life, not death, and of inclusion, not exclusion.” …




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:25 pm

+JMJ+

Gard family announces that Charlie has died
Image
(Credit: Charlie Gard's GoFundMe page.)

The critically ill British baby at the center of a contentious legal battle that attracted the attention of Pope Francis and U.S. President Donald Trump, died Friday, according to a family spokeswoman. In a statement, his mother, Connie Yates was quoted as saying “our beautiful little boy has gone, we’re so proud of him.”

LONDON - Charlie Gard, the critically ill British baby at the center of a contentious legal battle that attracted the attention of Pope Francis and U.S. President Donald Trump, died Friday, according to a family spokeswoman. He would have turned 1 next week.

[…]

Soon after the news broke about Gard’s death, Pope Francis sent a message through Twitter:
[…]

His parents gave up their fight on Monday after scans showed that Charlie’s muscles had deteriorated so much that the damage was irreversible.

“Mummy and Daddy love you so much Charlie, we always have and we always will and we are so sorry that we couldn’t save you,” his parents wrote when they announced their decision. “We had the chance but we weren’t allowed to give you that chance.

“Sweet dreams baby. Sleep tight, our beautiful little boy.”




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:04 am

+JMJ+

Changing the parish to help keep unity in a changing Church
Image
Members of the Vietnamese Eucharistic Youth Society carrying an image of Divine Mercy lead the procession during a Vietnamese Lunar New Year Mass and celebration at Christ the Incarnate Word Catholic Church in Houston. The parish serves Vietnamese community in the city. (Credit: James Ramos/Texas Catholic Herald via CNS.)

Camosy: We left off last time just beginning to dive into the importance of personal parishes at this moment in U.S. Catholic history. Can you say more about the importance of personal parishes for racial and ethnic minority groups?

[Dr. Tricia] Bruce: At a time when the U.S. Catholic Church is more racially and ethnically diverse than ever, personal parishes offer a way to provide specialized ministry to specific communities of Catholics. There are personal parishes for Vietnamese Catholics, for Hispanic Catholics, for Black Catholics, and more.

These parishes are different than traditional “territorial” parishes because their parish decree specifies service to a specific community, per Canon Law no. 518. Rather than serving everyone in a designated geographic area, personal parishes devote their ministry to a particular purpose. They specialize.

[…]

As my book profiles in detail, there are now (by formal decree) personal parishes whose primary focus is social justice, the Traditional Latin Mass, charismatic Catholicism, Anglican Use, tourism, college ministry, and more. While not explicitly “political,” the liturgical styles and ministry priorities of these specialized parishes does tend to attract and sift lay Catholics whose own preferences align. …

[…]

You and I co-edited a book on polarization in the U.S. Catholic Church. I suspect a strong downside of a trend toward personal parishes would be Catholics becoming even more strange to each other. Could a move toward personal parishes preserve the Church’s unity even as it honors diversity?

This question is at the heart of whether and why to establish personal parishes. Do they build community, or do they fragment Catholics? Inherently, they do both: Personal parishes foster togetherness by separating people.

This risks disrupting the integration and unity at the very heart of Catholicism. …

[…]

Where I see hope is through increasing interdependence across a diocese. All parishes - personal and territorial - belong to a diocese. …

[…]

This diocesan interconnection is where bridging can happen. Communities of similar Catholics (whether housed in personal parishes, or chosen territorial ones) can come together across lines of difference. Diocesan leaders can permit pockets of diverse expression throughout a diocese through personal parishes, while still upholding unity by weaving them together. Church law tells us that a parish is not, in itself, a “particular church”: The diocese is a particular church, headed by a bishop. Seeing parishes through this lens means that we can forgive personal parishes’ fragmenting characteristics, in the interest of unity across a diocese.

American Catholics are an increasingly diverse lot. Personal parishes hold the potential to honor that diversity and strengthen local community, so long as they fit together as pieces in a broader, interconnected whole.




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:37 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:04 am
+JMJ+

Changing the parish to help keep unity in a changing Church
Image
Members of the Vietnamese Eucharistic Youth Society carrying an image of Divine Mercy lead the procession during a Vietnamese Lunar New Year Mass and celebration at Christ the Incarnate Word Catholic Church in Houston. The parish serves Vietnamese community in the city. (Credit: James Ramos/Texas Catholic Herald via CNS.)

Camosy: We left off last time just beginning to dive into the importance of personal parishes at this moment in U.S. Catholic history. Can you say more about the importance of personal parishes for racial and ethnic minority groups?

[Dr. Tricia] Bruce: At a time when the U.S. Catholic Church is more racially and ethnically diverse than ever, personal parishes offer a way to provide specialized ministry to specific communities of Catholics. There are personal parishes for Vietnamese Catholics, for Hispanic Catholics, for Black Catholics, and more.

These parishes are different than traditional “territorial” parishes because their parish decree specifies service to a specific community, per Canon Law no. 518. Rather than serving everyone in a designated geographic area, personal parishes devote their ministry to a particular purpose. They specialize.

[…]

As my book profiles in detail, there are now (by formal decree) personal parishes whose primary focus is social justice, the Traditional Latin Mass, charismatic Catholicism, Anglican Use, tourism, college ministry, and more. While not explicitly “political,” the liturgical styles and ministry priorities of these specialized parishes does tend to attract and sift lay Catholics whose own preferences align. …

[…]

You and I co-edited a book on polarization in the U.S. Catholic Church. I suspect a strong downside of a trend toward personal parishes would be Catholics becoming even more strange to each other. Could a move toward personal parishes preserve the Church’s unity even as it honors diversity?

This question is at the heart of whether and why to establish personal parishes. Do they build community, or do they fragment Catholics? Inherently, they do both: Personal parishes foster togetherness by separating people.

This risks disrupting the integration and unity at the very heart of Catholicism. …

[…]

Where I see hope is through increasing interdependence across a diocese. All parishes - personal and territorial - belong to a diocese. …

[…]

This diocesan interconnection is where bridging can happen. Communities of similar Catholics (whether housed in personal parishes, or chosen territorial ones) can come together across lines of difference. Diocesan leaders can permit pockets of diverse expression throughout a diocese through personal parishes, while still upholding unity by weaving them together. Church law tells us that a parish is not, in itself, a “particular church”: The diocese is a particular church, headed by a bishop. Seeing parishes through this lens means that we can forgive personal parishes’ fragmenting characteristics, in the interest of unity across a diocese.

American Catholics are an increasingly diverse lot. Personal parishes hold the potential to honor that diversity and strengthen local community, so long as they fit together as pieces in a broader, interconnected whole.
We have always had ethnic parishes and communities in America.

Territorial parishes might be better for most of the world, so we shouldn't amend canon law just to accommodate Americans. But for now, we can drive past three Catholic churches to be part of an ethnic parish, or a parish with traditional Latin worship, or a parish with the clappiest children's worship. There is no restriction to belonging to a parish that you like.

It gets a little tricky when one wants to follow a different bishop, and belong to a diocese there than where one has domocile. For example, the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter guides all of the Anglican-use Catholics in America, wherever they are.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:58 am

Del wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:37 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:04 am
+JMJ+

Changing the parish to help keep unity in a changing Church
Image
Members of the Vietnamese Eucharistic Youth Society carrying an image of Divine Mercy lead the procession during a Vietnamese Lunar New Year Mass and celebration at Christ the Incarnate Word Catholic Church in Houston. The parish serves Vietnamese community in the city. (Credit: James Ramos/Texas Catholic Herald via CNS.)

Camosy: We left off last time just beginning to dive into the importance of personal parishes at this moment in U.S. Catholic history. Can you say more about the importance of personal parishes for racial and ethnic minority groups?

[Dr. Tricia] Bruce: At a time when the U.S. Catholic Church is more racially and ethnically diverse than ever, personal parishes offer a way to provide specialized ministry to specific communities of Catholics. There are personal parishes for Vietnamese Catholics, for Hispanic Catholics, for Black Catholics, and more.

These parishes are different than traditional “territorial” parishes because their parish decree specifies service to a specific community, per Canon Law no. 518. Rather than serving everyone in a designated geographic area, personal parishes devote their ministry to a particular purpose. They specialize.

[…]

As my book profiles in detail, there are now (by formal decree) personal parishes whose primary focus is social justice, the Traditional Latin Mass, charismatic Catholicism, Anglican Use, tourism, college ministry, and more. While not explicitly “political,” the liturgical styles and ministry priorities of these specialized parishes does tend to attract and sift lay Catholics whose own preferences align. …

[…]

You and I co-edited a book on polarization in the U.S. Catholic Church. I suspect a strong downside of a trend toward personal parishes would be Catholics becoming even more strange to each other. Could a move toward personal parishes preserve the Church’s unity even as it honors diversity?

This question is at the heart of whether and why to establish personal parishes. Do they build community, or do they fragment Catholics? Inherently, they do both: Personal parishes foster togetherness by separating people.

This risks disrupting the integration and unity at the very heart of Catholicism. …

[…]

Where I see hope is through increasing interdependence across a diocese. All parishes - personal and territorial - belong to a diocese. …

[…]

This diocesan interconnection is where bridging can happen. Communities of similar Catholics (whether housed in personal parishes, or chosen territorial ones) can come together across lines of difference. Diocesan leaders can permit pockets of diverse expression throughout a diocese through personal parishes, while still upholding unity by weaving them together. Church law tells us that a parish is not, in itself, a “particular church”: The diocese is a particular church, headed by a bishop. Seeing parishes through this lens means that we can forgive personal parishes’ fragmenting characteristics, in the interest of unity across a diocese.

American Catholics are an increasingly diverse lot. Personal parishes hold the potential to honor that diversity and strengthen local community, so long as they fit together as pieces in a broader, interconnected whole.
We have always had ethnic parishes and communities in America.

Territorial parishes might be better for most of the world, so we shouldn't amend canon law just to accommodate Americans. But for now, we can drive past three Catholic churches to be part of an ethnic parish, or a parish with traditional Latin worship, or a parish with the clappiest children's worship. There is no restriction to belonging to a parish that you like.

It gets a little tricky when one wants to follow a different bishop, and belong to a diocese there than where one has domocile. For example, the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter guides all of the Anglican-use Catholics in America, wherever they are.
Cardinal Mahony here in Southern California approved a post modern cathedral Our Lady of Angels. It's design was intended to erase ethnic traditions to bring all the multicultural Catholics together. All sorts of new practices were introduced to replace the old "ethnic" ones. I for one wonder why the old traditions of Mexico or Vietnam can't be adapted to by other American Catholics or even shared between parishes. We do that sort of thing with culinary exchange in our temporal culture. Why we have to eliminate traditions and replace them with new ones boggles me. :egor:

In the Eastern Catholic parishes they were expected to conform to their Orthodox counterparts. Of course many "Latinized" to one degree or another, especially those parishes in diaspora. At the same time though, they kept many of the "Eastern" practices while adding Latin ones. This reflected the natural interchange of members who themselves came to experience variation, but all of it was organically traditional, cultural and historic. In other words, the roots of the universal church is there, it's not a doing away with the old to replace it with some sort of modern or post modern worship.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:30 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:58 am
Del wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:37 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:04 am
+JMJ+

Changing the parish to help keep unity in a changing Church
Image
Members of the Vietnamese Eucharistic Youth Society carrying an image of Divine Mercy lead the procession during a Vietnamese Lunar New Year Mass and celebration at Christ the Incarnate Word Catholic Church in Houston. The parish serves Vietnamese community in the city. (Credit: James Ramos/Texas Catholic Herald via CNS.)

Camosy: We left off last time just beginning to dive into the importance of personal parishes at this moment in U.S. Catholic history. Can you say more about the importance of personal parishes for racial and ethnic minority groups?

[Dr. Tricia] Bruce: At a time when the U.S. Catholic Church is more racially and ethnically diverse than ever, personal parishes offer a way to provide specialized ministry to specific communities of Catholics. There are personal parishes for Vietnamese Catholics, for Hispanic Catholics, for Black Catholics, and more.

These parishes are different than traditional “territorial” parishes because their parish decree specifies service to a specific community, per Canon Law no. 518. Rather than serving everyone in a designated geographic area, personal parishes devote their ministry to a particular purpose. They specialize.

[…]

As my book profiles in detail, there are now (by formal decree) personal parishes whose primary focus is social justice, the Traditional Latin Mass, charismatic Catholicism, Anglican Use, tourism, college ministry, and more. While not explicitly “political,” the liturgical styles and ministry priorities of these specialized parishes does tend to attract and sift lay Catholics whose own preferences align. …

[…]

You and I co-edited a book on polarization in the U.S. Catholic Church. I suspect a strong downside of a trend toward personal parishes would be Catholics becoming even more strange to each other. Could a move toward personal parishes preserve the Church’s unity even as it honors diversity?

This question is at the heart of whether and why to establish personal parishes. Do they build community, or do they fragment Catholics? Inherently, they do both: Personal parishes foster togetherness by separating people.

This risks disrupting the integration and unity at the very heart of Catholicism. …

[…]

Where I see hope is through increasing interdependence across a diocese. All parishes - personal and territorial - belong to a diocese. …

[…]

This diocesan interconnection is where bridging can happen. Communities of similar Catholics (whether housed in personal parishes, or chosen territorial ones) can come together across lines of difference. Diocesan leaders can permit pockets of diverse expression throughout a diocese through personal parishes, while still upholding unity by weaving them together. Church law tells us that a parish is not, in itself, a “particular church”: The diocese is a particular church, headed by a bishop. Seeing parishes through this lens means that we can forgive personal parishes’ fragmenting characteristics, in the interest of unity across a diocese.

American Catholics are an increasingly diverse lot. Personal parishes hold the potential to honor that diversity and strengthen local community, so long as they fit together as pieces in a broader, interconnected whole.
We have always had ethnic parishes and communities in America.

Territorial parishes might be better for most of the world, so we shouldn't amend canon law just to accommodate Americans. But for now, we can drive past three Catholic churches to be part of an ethnic parish, or a parish with traditional Latin worship, or a parish with the clappiest children's worship. There is no restriction to belonging to a parish that you like.

It gets a little tricky when one wants to follow a different bishop, and belong to a diocese there than where one has domocile. For example, the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter guides all of the Anglican-use Catholics in America, wherever they are.
Cardinal Mahony here in Southern California approved a post modern cathedral Our Lady of Angels. It's design was intended to erase ethnic traditions to bring all the multicultural Catholics together. All sorts of new practices were introduced to replace the old "ethnic" ones. I for one wonder why the old traditions of Mexico or Vietnam can't be adapted to by other American Catholics or even shared between parishes. We do that sort of thing with culinary exchange in our temporal culture. Why we have to eliminate traditions and replace them with new ones boggles me. :egor:

In the Eastern Catholic parishes they were expected to conform to their Orthodox counterparts. Of course many "Latinized" to one degree or another, especially those parishes in diaspora. At the same time though, they kept many of the "Eastern" practices while adding Latin ones. This reflected the natural interchange of members who themselves came to experience variation, but all of it was organically traditional, cultural and historic. In other words, the roots of the universal church is there, it's not a doing away with the old to replace it with some sort of modern or post modern worship.
I do not understand the death-wish of western modernism... that somehow we will be more welcoming to "other" cultures if we obliterate our western heritage. And I don't know why "liberal" bishops were so ready to adopt this approach. We had the same problem with Archbishop Weakland (retired in disgrace after paying $450,000 to his male prostitute with diocesan funds) and his wreckovation of the cathedral in Milwaukee. Perhaps not as hideous as Mahoney's glass box, but still....
Image

People love tradition. A church that has no living history is declaring that it has no present life.

Downtown Madison has three church buildings: One built by German immigrants, another was Polish, and the third was Irish. [All three are now consolidated into one "parish."]

The European cultures have long since melded into a single "American" identity. The major immigrant group is Hispanic. The old "German" church is home to a vibrant immigrant community. The Mexicans have placed an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in an honored corner, as they always do. Along the hallway downstairs, leading to the Eucharistic Adoration Chapel, are a dozen statues of Our Lady as she is venerated in various nations of South and Central America.

The adoration chapel itself has key verses from John 6 painted on a scroll that circles the walls -- in English and in Spanish.

This is a wholesome and organically natural way for two cultures to meet in common faith. We don't have to suppress one in order to welcome another.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:46 am

+JMJ+
[Editor’s Note: The Jesuit-run journal La Civiltà Cattolica, reviewed by the Vatican’s Secretariat of State prior to publication, recently carried an article by two close friends of Pope Francis arguing that an “ecumenism of hate” between ‘Evangelical fundamentalists’ and ‘Catholic Integralists’ is gaining power in the United States. Given the significance of the article in Vatican-U.S. relations, Crux will be publishing a series of reactions to the piece.]

Here are the first three in the series …


‘Ecumenism of hate’ unjustly defames real Catholic/Evangelical dialogue [Commentary]
Image
Pope St. John Paul II speaks with Evangelical leader Billy Graham. (Credit: File photo.)

A recent article in a journal with close ties to the Vatican published an article asserting an unhealthy “ecumenism of conflict” between Catholics and Evangelicals on the right, claiming they are pushing a dangerous theocratic vision on America. However, those who have carried forward the fairly successful Evangelical-Catholic ecumenism in the United States have been some of the best and the brightest of mainstream Catholics.
—————————————————————————————————

A note on the ‘ecumenism of hate’ and papal rhetoric [Commentary]
Image
Pope Francis talks with Jesuit Father Antonio Spadaro, editor of La Civilta Cattolica, as he meets journalists aboard his flight from Rome to Nairobi, Kenya, Nov. 25, 2015. (Credit: Paul Haring/CNS.)

Jesuit Father Antonio Spadaro and Reverend Marcelo Figueroa caused controversy by using the expression “ecumenism of hate” in a La Civiltà Cattolica article to describe the relations between Catholics and Evangelicals in the United States. It’s not fair to criticize Spadaro/Figueroa for inflammatory rhetoric without conceding that it is of a piece with the pontifical style which they are proposing as a model for Christian engagement. And it would be dismissive to consider that style to be just loose talk, without a pastoral purpose.
—————————————————————————————————

Vatican article on ‘ecumenism of hate’ in U.S. was long overdue [Commentary]
Image
Father Antonio Spadaro. (Credit: CC 30 via Wikimedia Commons/CNA.)

Recently two intrepid souls, both of whom reportedly hold Pope Francis’s confidence, sought to advance a long-overdue conversation on the division of the Church in America along political lines. They're Jesuit Father Antonio Spadaro, editor–in–chief of the Jesuit publication "La Civilità Cattolica", and Presbyterian Rev. Marcelo Figueroa, editor–in–chief of the Argentinean edition of "L’Osservatore Romano", and whatever the gaps in details may be, the heart of their argument is long overdue.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

We get it: A Jesuit priest in Rome, a Presbyterian minister (& close friend of Pope Francis) from Argentina, and Crux editor John Allen all hate Donald Trump. They hate all Americans who voted for Donald Trump. They especially hate American Evangelicals. And they hate Catholics who voted for Trump.

And because hate is the primary emotion that motivates them, they are projecting that hatred upon us. They call us an "Ecumenism of Hate," suggesting that our votes were somehow motivated by hatred toward certain groups of people.

They can't fathom that we were purely and simply afraid of Hillary. They can't imagine that we wanted good jobs again.
===================================================================
A pox on all three of them.

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 am

Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
That's probably the funniest thing you've ever said.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 am
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
That's probably the funniest thing you've ever said.
Just because I enjoyed months of euphoria after Hillary's defeat?

Politics is a hobby, like pipe smoking. There are forums and threads for indulging in such vices.

This thread is for matters of interest to Catholics. Heard any good sermons about Fatima lately?
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:28 am

You are a non-stop riot. Do you have anything you won't try to push your agenda? :lol:
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:59 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:28 am
You are a non-stop riot. Do you have anything you won't try to push your agenda? :lol:
I guess not.

Charlie Gard died this week.

Another child in Michigan is facing the same grim disease, and the decision to give him treatment for it is in the hands of insurance bureaucrats.
Doctors Asked Parents of Boy With Same Condition as Charlie Gard: Do You Want to Just Let Him Die?
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:24 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:59 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:28 am
You are a non-stop riot. Do you have anything you won't try to push your agenda? :lol:
I guess not.

Charlie Gard died this week.

Another child in Michigan is facing the same grim disease, and the decision to give him treatment for it is in the hands of insurance bureaucrats.
Doctors Asked Parents of Boy With Same Condition as Charlie Gard: Do You Want to Just Let Him Die?
Political Manichaean is your epitaph, my friend.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:31 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 am
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
That's probably the funniest thing you've ever said.
Just because I enjoyed months of euphoria after Hillary's defeat?

Politics is a hobby, like pipe smoking. There are forums and threads for indulging in such vices.

This thread is for matters of interest to Catholics. Heard any good sermons about Fatima lately?
Speaking of Fatima, what's your thought on the conversion of Russia?

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:52 pm

Don't think it's been done yet, sir.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:49 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Don't think it's been done yet, sir.
What's the wait?

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:07 am

Thunktank wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:49 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:52 pm
Don't think it's been done yet, sir.
What's the wait?
Above my pay grade. :)
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