THE CATHOLIC THREAD

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Del
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:52 am

Thunktank wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:31 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 am
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
That's probably the funniest thing you've ever said.
Just because I enjoyed months of euphoria after Hillary's defeat?

Politics is a hobby, like pipe smoking. There are forums and threads for indulging in such vices.

This thread is for matters of interest to Catholics. Heard any good sermons about Fatima lately?
Speaking of Fatima, what's your thought on the conversion of Russia?
I thought the collapse of the Soviet Empire without the loss of a single life was a miracle. It seems to be the fulfillment of the promise that Mary gave us even before the Russian Revolution was over.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ma_en.html
Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. The first and second parts of the “secret”—which are here published in sequence so as to complete the documentation—refer especially to the frightening vision of hell, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War, and finally the prediction of the immense damage that Russia would do to humanity by abandoning the Christian faith and embracing Communist totalitarianism.

In 1917 no one could have imagined all this: the three pastorinhos of Fatima see, listen and remember, and Lucia, the surviving witness, commits it all to paper when ordered to do so by the Bishop of Leiria and with Our Lady's permission.
Russia may not be a nation of saints, but there was certainly a profound conversion during the fall of the Soviet U***n in 1991.

For one thing..... the Orthodox Church was no longer suppressed.

Our problem now is the apostasy of the West. People are turning from faith and goodness, many seeking a secular utopia. In 1982, Sr. Lucia wrote this about the "Third Secret" (the vision of a Pope, bishops, and masses of faithful being martyred)
“The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated' (13-VII-1917).

The third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message, conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.'.

Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc.

And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.
FYI: This was written to the Holy Father, several months after he was shot in an assassination attempt.

We are still inflicting great pain and suffering upon ourselves. [60 million American children have been murdered in the name of "freedom."]

Yet Mary gave us a promise of hope. She said, “my Immaculate Heart will triumph.” We can still repent, make reparations, and restore what we have lost.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:41 am

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:52 am
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:31 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 am
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
That's probably the funniest thing you've ever said.
Just because I enjoyed months of euphoria after Hillary's defeat?

Politics is a hobby, like pipe smoking. There are forums and threads for indulging in such vices.

This thread is for matters of interest to Catholics. Heard any good sermons about Fatima lately?
Speaking of Fatima, what's your thought on the conversion of Russia?
I thought the collapse of the Soviet Empire without the loss of a single life was a miracle. It seems to be the fulfillment of the promise that Mary gave us even before the Russian Revolution was over.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ma_en.html
Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. The first and second parts of the “secret”—which are here published in sequence so as to complete the documentation—refer especially to the frightening vision of hell, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War, and finally the prediction of the immense damage that Russia would do to humanity by abandoning the Christian faith and embracing Communist totalitarianism.

In 1917 no one could have imagined all this: the three pastorinhos of Fatima see, listen and remember, and Lucia, the surviving witness, commits it all to paper when ordered to do so by the Bishop of Leiria and with Our Lady's permission.
Russia may not be a nation of saints, but there was certainly a profound conversion during the fall of the Soviet U***n in 1991.

For one thing..... the Orthodox Church was no longer suppressed.

Our problem now is the apostasy of the West. People are turning from faith and goodness, many seeking a secular utopia. In 1982, Sr. Lucia wrote this about the "Third Secret" (the vision of a Pope, bishops, and masses of faithful being martyred)
“The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated' (13-VII-1917).

The third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message, conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.'.

Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc.

And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.
FYI: This was written to the Holy Father, several months after he was shot in an assassination attempt.

We are still inflicting great pain and suffering upon ourselves. [60 million American children have been murdered in the name of "freedom."]

Yet Mary gave us a promise of hope. She said, “my Immaculate Heart will triumph.” We can still repent, make reparations, and restore what we have lost.
Hey look, Del just personally interpreted Fatima. Of course, the fact that abortion and admiration of Vladimir Putin's dictatorship informed the decision should be ignored. Catholo-Republicanism at its best.

Of course, I can't argue with the last paragraph. The rest is above my pay grade.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:38 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:41 am
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:52 am
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:31 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 am
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
That's probably the funniest thing you've ever said.
Just because I enjoyed months of euphoria after Hillary's defeat?

Politics is a hobby, like pipe smoking. There are forums and threads for indulging in such vices.

This thread is for matters of interest to Catholics. Heard any good sermons about Fatima lately?
Speaking of Fatima, what's your thought on the conversion of Russia?
I thought the collapse of the Soviet Empire without the loss of a single life was a miracle. It seems to be the fulfillment of the promise that Mary gave us even before the Russian Revolution was over.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ma_en.html
Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. The first and second parts of the “secret”—which are here published in sequence so as to complete the documentation—refer especially to the frightening vision of hell, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War, and finally the prediction of the immense damage that Russia would do to humanity by abandoning the Christian faith and embracing Communist totalitarianism.

In 1917 no one could have imagined all this: the three pastorinhos of Fatima see, listen and remember, and Lucia, the surviving witness, commits it all to paper when ordered to do so by the Bishop of Leiria and with Our Lady's permission.
Russia may not be a nation of saints, but there was certainly a profound conversion during the fall of the Soviet U***n in 1991.

For one thing..... the Orthodox Church was no longer suppressed.

Our problem now is the apostasy of the West. People are turning from faith and goodness, many seeking a secular utopia. In 1982, Sr. Lucia wrote this about the "Third Secret" (the vision of a Pope, bishops, and masses of faithful being martyred)
“The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated' (13-VII-1917).

The third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message, conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.'.

Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc.

And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.
FYI: This was written to the Holy Father, several months after he was shot in an assassination attempt.

We are still inflicting great pain and suffering upon ourselves. [60 million American children have been murdered in the name of "freedom."]

Yet Mary gave us a promise of hope. She said, “my Immaculate Heart will triumph.” We can still repent, make reparations, and restore what we have lost.
Hey look, Del just personally interpreted Fatima. Of course, the fact that abortion and admiration of Vladimir Putin's dictatorship informed the decision should be ignored. Catholo-Republicanism at its best.

Of course, I can't argue with the last paragraph. The rest is above my pay grade.
Enough with the pointy sticks in my eyes.

Putin is not Russia, just as Trump/Hillary are not America. I am a poor example of "Catholo-Republicanism," whatever that might be. I was a fan of Mr. Trump... I am now scratching my head at the turn-over in his Administration. I don't have much of a relationship with the Congressional Republicans (except that Mr. Ryan represents the next-district-south and often calls in to local radio shows). I am saddened by the failure of the Republican-led Congress to secure healthcare and end funding to the abortion industry. I blame Democrats for stonewalling just as I blame Republicans for failing to find a pair. I continue to rejoice that the current regime does not expect my family to change our lives to suit their ideology.


There are dozens of websites filled with "personal" interpretations of the Fatima prophecies.... I don't know if there are any other kind.

I linked to the Vatican website, to an article signed by Cardinal Ratzinger, including Sr. Lucia's own interpretation of what she received from Our Lady. It is as close to "official" as we can get. It is not long or dry reading, but it does take a sense of duty to get through it all.
===========================================

Thunker asked about "Russia's conversion." I look at this within the context of our own nation's conversion.

Cigarson is home now. He was a FOCUS missionary on American campuses for four years, and led two college mission trips to the east coast of Russia.

Very broadly, he says that America has a strong "faithful remnant" of Christians who are progressing steadily against the stream of secular culture. Numerous examples are easy to mind. Cigarson sees that Catholic faith is growing and restoring, especially among college-aged and young adults. Campus ministries and young-adult Catholic groups are thriving and spreading in cities across the nation.

For one example: When Cigarson started in 2013, FOCUS was on 83 campuses. Last year, there were right at 500 FOCUS missionaries on 125 campuses in the US. This year, over 600 missionaries on 140 US campuses. Plus two campuses in Austria, one in England, and close to establishing a mission campus in Ireland. Each missionary influences hundreds of lives.

Russia, as much as he could see, does not have the same sort of strong & growing remnant of faithful Christians. The Christian infrastructure was essentially destroyed during the Communist era and has not been restored.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:12 am

Marian apparitions are not part of dogmatic Tradition are they? There are some revealed beliefs not up for personal opinion. There are objectively right and wrong ways to interpret the Scriptures as well. Is a Catholic even required to believe in Our Lady of Fatima? A Catholic must believe in the ever Virgin Mary, but must they believe in each apparition the church deems worthy of belief? To be clear, I'm not saying that I don't, rather I'm at a stage of critically thinking over them. I do know that I appreciate the adoration, veneration and pilgrimages associated with them. . . I have traveled down this road with the Orthodox. Perhaps my interest is somewhat more anthropological in nature too. Catholic culture differs somewhat. But also, I have good reason to be skeptical of some of it. I wouldn't have right reason to be skeptical of Mary's ever virginity.

Regardless, I often wonder what rank and file Catholics have to say about the conversion of Russia. I come from the Orthodox Church. There is a Church in Russia. A very large one in fact.

Here is a video from my old Orthodox parish in which this priest mentioned Our Lady of Fatima:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=or ... ORM=VRDGAR

I chuckle a bit at that video, but his impressions are not surprising.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:58 am

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:38 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:41 am
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:52 am
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:31 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:54 am
Del wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:36 am

Catholic life and faith are not centered on politics. This thread should not.
That's probably the funniest thing you've ever said.
Just because I enjoyed months of euphoria after Hillary's defeat?

Politics is a hobby, like pipe smoking. There are forums and threads for indulging in such vices.

This thread is for matters of interest to Catholics. Heard any good sermons about Fatima lately?
Speaking of Fatima, what's your thought on the conversion of Russia?
I thought the collapse of the Soviet Empire without the loss of a single life was a miracle. It seems to be the fulfillment of the promise that Mary gave us even before the Russian Revolution was over.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ma_en.html
Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. The first and second parts of the “secret”—which are here published in sequence so as to complete the documentation—refer especially to the frightening vision of hell, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War, and finally the prediction of the immense damage that Russia would do to humanity by abandoning the Christian faith and embracing Communist totalitarianism.

In 1917 no one could have imagined all this: the three pastorinhos of Fatima see, listen and remember, and Lucia, the surviving witness, commits it all to paper when ordered to do so by the Bishop of Leiria and with Our Lady's permission.
Russia may not be a nation of saints, but there was certainly a profound conversion during the fall of the Soviet U***n in 1991.

For one thing..... the Orthodox Church was no longer suppressed.

Our problem now is the apostasy of the West. People are turning from faith and goodness, many seeking a secular utopia. In 1982, Sr. Lucia wrote this about the "Third Secret" (the vision of a Pope, bishops, and masses of faithful being martyred)
“The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated' (13-VII-1917).

The third part of the secret is a symbolic revelation, referring to this part of the Message, conditioned by whether we accept or not what the Message itself asks of us: ‘If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, etc.'.

Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfilment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc.

And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.
FYI: This was written to the Holy Father, several months after he was shot in an assassination attempt.

We are still inflicting great pain and suffering upon ourselves. [60 million American children have been murdered in the name of "freedom."]

Yet Mary gave us a promise of hope. She said, “my Immaculate Heart will triumph.” We can still repent, make reparations, and restore what we have lost.
Hey look, Del just personally interpreted Fatima. Of course, the fact that abortion and admiration of Vladimir Putin's dictatorship informed the decision should be ignored. Catholo-Republicanism at its best.

Of course, I can't argue with the last paragraph. The rest is above my pay grade.
Enough with the pointy sticks in my eyes.

Putin is not Russia, just as Trump/Hillary are not America. I am a poor example of "Catholo-Republicanism," whatever that might be. I was a fan of Mr. Trump... I am now scratching my head at the turn-over in his Administration. I don't have much of a relationship with the Congressional Republicans (except that Mr. Ryan represents the next-district-south and often calls in to local radio shows). I am saddened by the failure of the Republican-led Congress to secure healthcare and end funding to the abortion industry. I blame Democrats for stonewalling just as I blame Republicans for failing to find a pair. I continue to rejoice that the current regime does not expect my family to change our lives to suit their ideology.


There are dozens of websites filled with "personal" interpretations of the Fatima prophecies.... I don't know if there are any other kind.

I linked to the Vatican website, to an article signed by Cardinal Ratzinger, including Sr. Lucia's own interpretation of what she received from Our Lady. It is as close to "official" as we can get. It is not long or dry reading, but it does take a sense of duty to get through it all.
===========================================

Thunker asked about "Russia's conversion." I look at this within the context of our own nation's conversion.

Cigarson is home now. He was a FOCUS missionary on American campuses for four years, and led two college mission trips to the east coast of Russia.

Very broadly, he says that America has a strong "faithful remnant" of Christians who are progressing steadily against the stream of secular culture. Numerous examples are easy to mind. Cigarson sees that Catholic faith is growing and restoring, especially among college-aged and young adults. Campus ministries and young-adult Catholic groups are thriving and spreading in cities across the nation.

For one example: When Cigarson started in 2013, FOCUS was on 83 campuses. Last year, there were right at 500 FOCUS missionaries on 125 campuses in the US. This year, over 600 missionaries on 140 US campuses. Plus two campuses in Austria, one in England, and close to establishing a mission campus in Ireland. Each missionary influences hundreds of lives.

Russia, as much as he could see, does not have the same sort of strong & growing remnant of faithful Christians. The Christian infrastructure was essentially destroyed during the Communist era and has not been restored.

You want the miracle of modern technology? I'm on the Internet somewhere over Idaho.


Enough pointy sticks in your eyes? Nah. I've been reading your schtick for years. I'm just now telling you what I think of it. And I realize you're a good man that doesn't believe much of what he writes, with a good mind to boot. That's why I want to poke pointy sticks in your eyes.

But I still love you. So there. :)

All I'm sure I understand about Fatima is I am to pray the Rosary daily and perform penance and suffer for Jesus in reparation of sins and for the unconverted. Everything else is very up in the air for me and I've made a hobby of reading about it.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:06 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:12 am
Marian apparitions are not part of dogmatic Tradition are they? There are some revealed beliefs not up for personal opinion. There are objectively right and wrong ways to interpret the Scriptures as well. Is a Catholic even required to believe in Our Lady of Fatima? A Catholic must believe in the ever Virgin Mary, but must they believe in each apparition the church deems worthy of belief? To be clear, I'm not saying that I don't, rather I'm at a stage of critically thinking over them. I do know that I appreciate the adoration, veneration and pilgrimages associated with them. . . I have traveled down this road with the Orthodox. Perhaps my interest is somewhat more anthropological in nature too. Catholic culture differs somewhat. But also, I have good reason to be skeptical of some of it. I wouldn't have right reason to be skeptical of Mary's ever virginity.

Regardless, I often wonder what rank and file Catholics have to say about the conversion of Russia. I come from the Orthodox Church. There is a Church in Russia. A very large one in fact.

Here is a video from my old Orthodox parish in which this priest mentioned Our Lady of Fatima:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=or ... ORM=VRDGAR

I chuckle a bit at that video, but his impressions are not surprising.
Are you sure you want to know, Thunktank? You seem pretty ecumenical. To us, there is only one true Church possessing all of the sacraments. Other Christians possess some, but not all. No desire to be annoying and I have no personal beef with the Orthodox, but I don't consider them Catholic by my understanding. And neither do they. Hopefully we get over the argument before too much more time passes.

I still think it's odd they aren't sending you to RCIA, but then again, the average quality of instruction is pretty poor these days. No need to believe in Fatima. I find it hard to discount the Miracle of the Sun, but there is no need to believe.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:26 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:12 am
Marian apparitions are not part of dogmatic Tradition are they? There are some revealed beliefs not up for personal opinion. There are objectively right and wrong ways to interpret the Scriptures as well. Is a Catholic even required to believe in Our Lady of Fatima?
You understand correctly.

Marian apparitions are not part of the "dogmatic" tradition, just as the lives of saints and the writings of the Doctors are not "dogmatic."

The Church approves these things, and offers them to us as worthy of study, imitation, and veneration.

The Fatima apparition is special because of its specific prophecies:
- The end of WWI soon.
- A war much worse than WWI will follow, if we do no repent.
- The rise and spread of Russian communism.
- The conversion of Russia, if we dedicate Russia to Mary's care.
- A spectacular miracle would come with Her last apparition, on October 13, 1917

Mary showed the children a horrific vision of Hell, and warned that souls are falling into Hell "like snowflakes," mainly due to sins of impurity.

The "Third Secret" was kept secret for several decades, because it was a surreal vision of mass persecution which was difficult to interpret. (There was a joke in 1960: "The Third Secret has been opened, and it says, 'Vote for Kennedy.'")

As Sr. Lucia wrote above, the vision represented a possible future of persecution which could be averted if we repent, make reparations, and increase our devotion to her Immaculate Heart.

Since then, we have endured the worst century the Christian world has ever seen -- in terms of persecutions and martyrdoms and apostasy, more than all of the previous centuries combined.

Many of us with devotion to Fatima hold the opinion that it will continue to get worse before it gets better. We have much work to do.
Last edited by Del on Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Thunktank
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:00 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:06 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:12 am
Marian apparitions are not part of dogmatic Tradition are they? There are some revealed beliefs not up for personal opinion. There are objectively right and wrong ways to interpret the Scriptures as well. Is a Catholic even required to believe in Our Lady of Fatima? A Catholic must believe in the ever Virgin Mary, but must they believe in each apparition the church deems worthy of belief? To be clear, I'm not saying that I don't, rather I'm at a stage of critically thinking over them. I do know that I appreciate the adoration, veneration and pilgrimages associated with them. . . I have traveled down this road with the Orthodox. Perhaps my interest is somewhat more anthropological in nature too. Catholic culture differs somewhat. But also, I have good reason to be skeptical of some of it. I wouldn't have right reason to be skeptical of Mary's ever virginity.

Regardless, I often wonder what rank and file Catholics have to say about the conversion of Russia. I come from the Orthodox Church. There is a Church in Russia. A very large one in fact.

Here is a video from my old Orthodox parish in which this priest mentioned Our Lady of Fatima:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=or ... ORM=VRDGAR

I chuckle a bit at that video, but his impressions are not surprising.
Are you sure you want to know, Thunktank? You seem pretty ecumenical. To us, there is only one true Church possessing all of the sacraments. Other Christians possess some, but not all. No desire to be annoying and I have no personal beef with the Orthodox, but I don't consider them Catholic by my understanding. And neither do they. Hopefully we get over the argument before too much more time passes.

I still think it's odd they aren't sending you to RCIA, but then again, the average quality of instruction is pretty poor these days. No need to believe in Fatima. I find it hard to discount the Miracle of the Sun, but there is no need to believe.
Did you watch the whole link I posted above?

Being ecumenical doesn't mean that I'm not sound in thought. I am aware that the Orthodox by Catholic standards have valid but illicit sacraments. I know what that means as well. I wanted to know what the rest of you here thought of the Fatima statement on "conversion" of Russia, that is all. I have heard various opinions on it from Catholics. I am well aware that there is a Church and for the Catholics, that means The Church exists where the Pope is. Particular churches however may be in schism (Vat II then further explained in Oriental Lumen). To me, when the Orthodox (as seen in the link I posted above) talk of the Catholic Church being in a state of heresy, it is because, primarily, they have rejected or misunderstand the Roman Catholic's use of Reason and Scholatic thinking. For example, the priest above acknowledged the various rites of the pre Great Schism Church, but did not use the same logic to realize that different theological traditions within those rites might also exist.

Speaking of pay grades:

It is likely that I will be required to wait for my first communion within a Catholic Church and reconciliation, one that I fully agree is wise, good and prudent given my own history. I will also probably have to make a profession of faith in a Melkite Catholic Church (the sister Church for the Orthodox Church in Antioch) by canon law. I do not require baptism, conformation or first communion according to those with the right pay grade, because I already had those things in a particular Orthodox Church. But I will also be able to participate in RC parish life and meet my weekly obligations there, whilst practicing Eastern Catholic Holy days of obligation. I have had to explain this to a local Roman priest recently. The Byzantine priest was already aware. I may switch rites to the Roman rite one time per canon law. I might opt for that, don't know yet. :wink:

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Skip » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm

I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm
I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
I'm against it on other grounds. I think it takes away from actual military service.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:28 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:00 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:06 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:12 am
Marian apparitions are not part of dogmatic Tradition are they? There are some revealed beliefs not up for personal opinion. There are objectively right and wrong ways to interpret the Scriptures as well. Is a Catholic even required to believe in Our Lady of Fatima? A Catholic must believe in the ever Virgin Mary, but must they believe in each apparition the church deems worthy of belief? To be clear, I'm not saying that I don't, rather I'm at a stage of critically thinking over them. I do know that I appreciate the adoration, veneration and pilgrimages associated with them. . . I have traveled down this road with the Orthodox. Perhaps my interest is somewhat more anthropological in nature too. Catholic culture differs somewhat. But also, I have good reason to be skeptical of some of it. I wouldn't have right reason to be skeptical of Mary's ever virginity.

Regardless, I often wonder what rank and file Catholics have to say about the conversion of Russia. I come from the Orthodox Church. There is a Church in Russia. A very large one in fact.

Here is a video from my old Orthodox parish in which this priest mentioned Our Lady of Fatima:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=or ... ORM=VRDGAR

I chuckle a bit at that video, but his impressions are not surprising.
Are you sure you want to know, Thunktank? You seem pretty ecumenical. To us, there is only one true Church possessing all of the sacraments. Other Christians possess some, but not all. No desire to be annoying and I have no personal beef with the Orthodox, but I don't consider them Catholic by my understanding. And neither do they. Hopefully we get over the argument before too much more time passes.

I still think it's odd they aren't sending you to RCIA, but then again, the average quality of instruction is pretty poor these days. No need to believe in Fatima. I find it hard to discount the Miracle of the Sun, but there is no need to believe.
Did you watch the whole link I posted above?

Being ecumenical doesn't mean that I'm not sound in thought. I am aware that the Orthodox by Catholic standards have valid but illicit sacraments. I know what that means as well. I wanted to know what the rest of you here thought of the Fatima statement on "conversion" of Russia, that is all. I have heard various opinions on it from Catholics. I am well aware that there is a Church and for the Catholics, that means The Church exists where the Pope is. Particular churches however may be in schism (Vat II then further explained in Oriental Lumen). To me, when the Orthodox (as seen in the link I posted above) talk of the Catholic Church being in a state of heresy, it is because, primarily, they have rejected or misunderstand the Roman Catholic's use of Reason and Scholatic thinking. For example, the priest above acknowledged the various rites of the pre Great Schism Church, but did not use the same logic to realize that different theological traditions within those rites might also exist.

Speaking of pay grades:

It is likely that I will be required to wait for my first communion within a Catholic Church and reconciliation, one that I fully agree is wise, good and prudent given my own history. I will also probably have to make a profession of faith in a Melkite Catholic Church (the sister Church for the Orthodox Church in Antioch) by canon law. I do not require baptism, conformation or first communion according to those with the right pay grade, because I already had those things in a particular Orthodox Church. But I will also be able to participate in RC parish life and meet my weekly obligations there, whilst practicing Eastern Catholic Holy days of obligation. I have had to explain this to a local Roman priest recently. The Byzantine priest was already aware. I may switch rites to the Roman rite one time per canon law. I might opt for that, don't know yet. :wink:
Yup. Keep on doing what you're doing. You'll be fine.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:04 pm

+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:00 pm
Being ecumenical doesn't mean that I'm not sound in thought. I am aware that the Orthodox by Catholic standards have valid but illicit sacraments. I know what that means as well. I wanted to know what the rest of you here thought of the Fatima statement on "conversion" of Russia, that is all. I have heard various opinions on it from Catholics. I am well aware that there is a Church and for the Catholics, that means The Church exists where the Pope is. Particular churches however may be in schism (Vat II then further explained in Oriental Lumen). To me, when the Orthodox (as seen in the link I posted above) talk of the Catholic Church being in a state of heresy, it is because, primarily, they have rejected or misunderstand the Roman Catholic's use of Reason and Scholatic thinking. For example, the priest above acknowledged the various rites of the pre Great Schism Church, but did not use the same logic to realize that different theological traditions within those rites might also exist.
It seems to me that "conversion" would not apply to the Orthodox, simply because they don't need to be converted. Note that the CDF document to which Del linked mentions neither Orthodoxy nor the Russian Orthodox Church. We [Cathlodoxy] have a shared theological framework (the iterations of which are not necessarily mutually exclusive, though they are often portrayed as such for polemical/political purposes), but simply lack a shared governmental/legal one. This is why ecumenism is possible with the East, whereas it is (strictly speaking) not possible with Protestantism — a locus where only conversion is at issue.

I would think that "conversion" likely refers to an abandonment of Communist Totalitarian ideology (and of ideological manias, in general) — absolutized ideologies being something which the theological commitments of Orthodoxy would've precluded it from ever affirming — and an embracement of politico-philosophical Realism. A "back-to-reality" moment, so to speak.




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:04 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm
I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
I'm against it on other grounds. I think it takes away from actual military service.
Interesting.

Cigarson jumped into a social-media kerfuffle. He likes the new uniform. He respects the 4th Degree, but he also thought the capes and ostrich plumes looked like old guys playing at clowns.

His only gripe is that hardly any of the guys in the new uniforms seem to have any idea how to form and wear a beret.
Last edited by Del on Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Skip » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:25 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:04 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm
I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
I'm against it on other grounds. I think it takes away from actual military service.
Interesting.

Cigarson jumped into a social-media kerfuffle. He likes the new uniform. He respects the 4th Degree, but he also thought the capes and ostrich plumes looked like old guys playing at clowns.

His only gripe is that hardly any of the guys in the new uniforms seems to have any idea how to form and wear a beret.
Cigarson and I are friends; that's why I saw the Facebook post... :wink:

I like the way he presented his case and even linked to a site to teach how to properly wear a beret. (And I agree with him on how the capes and plumes look... :D )
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:06 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:04 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm
I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
I'm against it on other grounds. I think it takes away from actual military service.
Interesting.

Cigarson jumped into a social-media kerfuffle. He likes the new uniform. He respects the 4th Degree, but he also thought the capes and ostrich plumes looked like old guys playing at clowns.

His only gripe is that hardly any of the guys in the new uniforms seems to have any idea how to form and wear a beret.
Cigarson and I are friends; that's why I saw the Facebook post... :wink:

I like the way he presented his case and even linked to a site to teach how to properly wear a beret. (And I agree with him on how the capes and plumes look... :D )
They look like the old Catholic orders of Chivalry...the Knights of Malta, the Order of St Hubertus, papal knights...now it's an American paramilitary order.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:48 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm
I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
I'm against it on other grounds. I think it takes away from actual military service.
Like Fatima, I have no opinion on this worth the bytes required to post it. Well, other than the fact that if they pattern them after military uniforms, they had better not have Irish pennants.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:35 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:06 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:04 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm
I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
I'm against it on other grounds. I think it takes away from actual military service.
Interesting.

Cigarson jumped into a social-media kerfuffle. He likes the new uniform. He respects the 4th Degree, but he also thought the capes and ostrich plumes looked like old guys playing at clowns.

His only gripe is that hardly any of the guys in the new uniforms seems to have any idea how to form and wear a beret.
Cigarson and I are friends; that's why I saw the Facebook post... :wink:

I like the way he presented his case and even linked to a site to teach how to properly wear a beret. (And I agree with him on how the capes and plumes look... :D )
They look like the old Catholic orders of Chivalry...the Knights of Malta, the Order of St Hubertus, papal knights...now it's an American paramilitary order.
Swiss Guard To Modernize Uniforms To Hipster Jeans And Beanies
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:55 am

+JMJ+

Cardinal Lustiger: 10 years after death, Jewish convert still looms over Church in France
Image
Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger at Notre Dame Cathedral on August 15, 1988. (Credit: Claude Truong-Ngoc/Wikimedia Commons.)

Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, the Jewish convert who became Archbishop of Paris, died ten years ago. His epitaph, which he wrote, reads: “I was born a Jew. I received the name of my paternal grandfather Aaron. Christian by faith and by baptism, I remained a Jew, as did the Apostles.”

When Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger died on August 5, 2007, his funeral Mass at Notre Dame Cathedral began with the Kaddish, the Jewish prayer for the dead.

It was an unconventional liturgy for a man whose tenure as Archbishop of Paris spanned almost a quarter-century, but it was fitting for a man whose life was marked by defying traditional norms. On the tenth anniversary of his death, it’s impossible to understand the French Catholic Church without reckoning with the indelible mark he left on it. …




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:59 am

Del wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:35 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:06 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:04 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 pm
I just came across a Facebook post regarding the new 4th degree KoC uniforms, which look more like real US military uniforms, including beret. Seems to be causing quite the kerfuffle with the traditionalists holding nothing back from knocking the new look. It made me happy to see that good Catholics can get just as pissy and rude as the rest of us.
I'm against it on other grounds. I think it takes away from actual military service.
Interesting.

Cigarson jumped into a social-media kerfuffle. He likes the new uniform. He respects the 4th Degree, but he also thought the capes and ostrich plumes looked like old guys playing at clowns.

His only gripe is that hardly any of the guys in the new uniforms seems to have any idea how to form and wear a beret.
Cigarson and I are friends; that's why I saw the Facebook post... :wink:

I like the way he presented his case and even linked to a site to teach how to properly wear a beret. (And I agree with him on how the capes and plumes look... :D )
They look like the old Catholic orders of Chivalry...the Knights of Malta, the Order of St Hubertus, papal knights...now it's an American paramilitary order.
Swiss Guard To Modernize Uniforms To Hipster Jeans And Beanies
I love that site. Reverently irreverent. Please don't think I'm such a reactionary that I view all change as bad. I don't. I never bought the Cape and funny hat, although I am a 4th degree kaniggut. But I really don't care for much military symbolism in my religious organizations. The Church Militant does not have to be the Church Military. I never purchased the tin sword, eother.

During our stay here, we're going to pilgrimage. Hawai'i can boast two saints, one of whom is interred here. Moral lepers like myself can use all the help we can get!
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:26 pm

+JMJ+

West Bank priests stress nonviolence as youths protest Israeli occupation
Image
In this Friday, July 28, 2017, file photo, the Dome of the Rock Mosque is seen in the Al Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem's Old City. (Credit: AP Photo/Mahmoud Illean, File.)

Priests living in the West Bank emphasized that the challenge is to emphasize the Christian tradition of nonviolence while supporting their young parishioners' desire to oppose the Israeli occupation. The priests agreed that violent confrontation is not acceptable in order to achieve peace in the area.

JERUSALEM - With tensions still high in the Old City following weeks of violence, Father Firas Aridah completed his work at the Latin Patriarchate early so he could leave Jerusalem for his West Bank parish before any possible violence began.

“There were many (Israeli) police and soldiers, closing many roads,” Aridah told Catholic News Service in a phone interview once he was back in Jifna’s St. Joseph Parish July 28.

Friday afternoon prayer in Muslim tradition is considered especially significant and is required of all Muslim men. Often during volatile periods, prayers at the contested Al-Aqsa Mosque compound have been followed by demonstrations. Sometimes the tensions spread to other sections of Jerusalem, or even to the West Bank.

For Aridah and other parish priests in the West Bank, the challenge is to emphasize the Christian tradition of nonviolence while supporting their young parishioners’ desire to oppose the Israeli occupation.

Aridah said he counsels young people not even to throw stones at the young Israeli soldiers who sometimes come near their village on patrols or in search of men wanted by the army.

“The problem is with the (Israeli) government, not with the soldiers,” he said. “Violence is not acceptable from either side. With this conflict, Israel is losing its image as a democratic state. I tell the young men that we are not with this violence. If we do not accept for Israel to behave this way, then how can we accept it from our side? Wherever God is represented in our life, we should have no violence.” …




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