THE CATHOLIC THREAD

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UncleBob
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by UncleBob » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:08 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:00 pm
+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:51 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:42 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Political action can certainly be acceptable. And even violence is not absolutely precluded. Capital punishment is not precluded. Revolution is not precluded. Hell, even deporting the Jews from Spain is not precluded.

But is it prudent here and now? Does it serve the Common Good?
I dunno. How white is the "Common Good"?
Dunno. I've no answers for you. Other than you're not helping things by staying on the outside.
I'm not on the outside. I'm a <redacted individual>, remember? As for on the outside of the RCC, if that is what you mean:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 23a9p3.htm
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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wosbald
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:13 pm

+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:08 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:00 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:51 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:42 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Political action can certainly be acceptable. And even violence is not absolutely precluded. Capital punishment is not precluded. Revolution is not precluded. Hell, even deporting the Jews from Spain is not precluded.

But is it prudent here and now? Does it serve the Common Good?
I dunno. How white is the "Common Good"?
Dunno. I've no answers for you. Other than you're not helping things by staying on the outside.
I'm not on the outside. I'm a "race traitor", remember? As for on the outside of the RCC, if that is what you mean:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 23a9p3.htm
You're still not helping things by staying on the outside.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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UncleBob
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by UncleBob » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:26 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:13 pm
+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:08 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:00 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:51 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:42 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Political action can certainly be acceptable. And even violence is not absolutely precluded. Capital punishment is not precluded. Revolution is not precluded. Hell, even deporting the Jews from Spain is not precluded.

But is it prudent here and now? Does it serve the Common Good?
I dunno. How white is the "Common Good"?
Dunno. I've no answers for you. Other than you're not helping things by staying on the outside.
I'm not on the outside. I'm a "race traitor", remember? As for on the outside of the RCC, if that is what you mean:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 23a9p3.htm
You're still not helping things by staying on the outside.
Zederated.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:46 am

+JMJ+

Newcomers to the Church should speak less, listen more [Commentary]
Image
Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo of Galveston-Houston baptizes a catechumen during the Easter Vigil at the Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart in Houston. (Credit: James Ramos/Texas Catholic Herald via CNS.)

David Mill, who entered the Church over 15 years ago, says a convert may know many of the Catholic details. He may be full of book-learning. But of the real Catholic mind or imagination — the Catholic paradigm, the way Catholics see the world — he knows little. The new Catholic must work for many years to get that, and never will get it fully.

[…]

The convert enters the Church at a disadvantage, because he enters it late when he has been deeply formed by another tradition. The more religious he was, the more he has to unlearn. He may know many of the Catholic details. He may be full of book-learning. But of the real Catholic mind or imagination - the Catholic paradigm, the way Catholics see the world - he knows little. The new Catholic must work for many years to get that, and never will get it fully.

Most converts, as I wrote in The New Oxford Review, will never think and feel exactly as do cradle Catholics. They do by instinct what we will always do by analysis followed by choice

[…]

Let me give two examples of truths I only began to see after some years within the Church. I needed to grow in the Faith to the point of saying “Well, of course.”

The first is the way Catholics feel about the Mother of God as a mother. When we entered the Church, I knew I could now relate to her as a son. But I felt (as I see it now) that I had to do so like someone submitting a form by mail to a high official, noted for her benevolence but still very far away.

[…]

The second example relates more closely to Faggioli’s and Ivereigh’s concerns. Converts tend not to have a sense of the Church as a living body moving through history. Our instinctive ecclesiology is more static, more a matter of settled rules to be obeyed than a life to be lived.

Converts may believe in the development of doctrine, and in fact include it as one of their reasons for converting. I did, but for a long time I didn’t see how it works.

Converts don’t trust it, because the process includes a lot of confusion and error. It requires something more like mobs arguing in bars and battling in the street than the genteel discussion around the table in an oak-paneled room they imagine.

It includes a pope who might speak ambiguously and challenge the Church to explain and defend practices thought settled in their present form, while being the Holy Father to whom submission is due.

We will tend to react to any questioning of the boundaries and feel the hard cases dangerously risky. We hold more doctrines to be settled than are actually settled, and dislike open questions.

The cradle Catholic doesn’t think twice when the boat enters stormy waters. He knows he’ll be okay. The convert tries to yell “Mayday! Mayday!” into the radio. This is especially true of those of us who came from the battles of the mainline churches, who know how easily those ships could sink. …




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 am

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
+JMJ+


It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Hillary won the popular vote in California. Trump won the popular vote in the rest of America.

We pray on sidewalks in front of abortion clinics because we want to be there, to love and offer help the women who are entering and who are leaving.

And we prayed at rosary rallies at the state Capitol mall, asserting and protecting our religious freedom against Obama's "HHS Mandate" and other rules forcing us to violate our consciences. A few trolls got themselves arrested, attempting to disrupt us.

I hope to join the March For Life someday, if abortion does not end soon.

But I wouldn't join a pointless "anger march" against the likes of Hillary, had she won.

And I wouldn't join a counter-protest against Trump-haters or white supremacists.... they deserve to be ignored, repulsive extremists of the left and the right.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:38 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:46 am
+JMJ+

Newcomers to the Church should speak less, listen more [Commentary]
Image
Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo of Galveston-Houston baptizes a catechumen during the Easter Vigil at the Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart in Houston. (Credit: James Ramos/Texas Catholic Herald via CNS.)

David Mill, who entered the Church over 15 years ago, says a convert may know many of the Catholic details. He may be full of book-learning. But of the real Catholic mind or imagination — the Catholic paradigm, the way Catholics see the world — he knows little. The new Catholic must work for many years to get that, and never will get it fully.

[…]

The convert enters the Church at a disadvantage, because he enters it late when he has been deeply formed by another tradition. The more religious he was, the more he has to unlearn. He may know many of the Catholic details. He may be full of book-learning. But of the real Catholic mind or imagination - the Catholic paradigm, the way Catholics see the world - he knows little. The new Catholic must work for many years to get that, and never will get it fully.

Most converts, as I wrote in The New Oxford Review, will never think and feel exactly as do cradle Catholics. They do by instinct what we will always do by analysis followed by choice

[…]

Let me give two examples of truths I only began to see after some years within the Church. I needed to grow in the Faith to the point of saying “Well, of course.”

The first is the way Catholics feel about the Mother of God as a mother. When we entered the Church, I knew I could now relate to her as a son. But I felt (as I see it now) that I had to do so like someone submitting a form by mail to a high official, noted for her benevolence but still very far away.

[…]

The second example relates more closely to Faggioli’s and Ivereigh’s concerns. Converts tend not to have a sense of the Church as a living body moving through history. Our instinctive ecclesiology is more static, more a matter of settled rules to be obeyed than a life to be lived.

Converts may believe in the development of doctrine, and in fact include it as one of their reasons for converting. I did, but for a long time I didn’t see how it works.

Converts don’t trust it, because the process includes a lot of confusion and error. It requires something more like mobs arguing in bars and battling in the street than the genteel discussion around the table in an oak-paneled room they imagine.

It includes a pope who might speak ambiguously and challenge the Church to explain and defend practices thought settled in their present form, while being the Holy Father to whom submission is due.

We will tend to react to any questioning of the boundaries and feel the hard cases dangerously risky. We hold more doctrines to be settled than are actually settled, and dislike open questions.

The cradle Catholic doesn’t think twice when the boat enters stormy waters. He knows he’ll be okay. The convert tries to yell “Mayday! Mayday!” into the radio. This is especially true of those of us who came from the battles of the mainline churches, who know how easily those ships could sink. …
In my experience, converts come in with significantly more and better formation than the cradle Catholic was exposed to.

The focus and enthusiasm of a new convert should be welcomed and encouraged.

But this author takes a slightly different spin, encouraging the mighty new converts to listen more... even to flaky Catholics who don't know our own doctrine. That cafeteria Catholic might not be able to articulate the Immaculate Conception, but she wakes up every morning and says "Hello" to her Mother.

In living the Catholic life, relationship is the most important thing. Doctrines and moral laws are tools to help us grow closer to Christ... not ends in themselves.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:29 am

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 am
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
+JMJ+


It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Hillary won the popular vote in California. Trump won the popular vote in the rest of America.

We pray on sidewalks in front of abortion clinics because we want to be there, to love and offer help the women who are entering and who are leaving.

And we prayed at rosary rallies at the state Capitol mall, asserting and protecting our religious freedom against Obama's "HHS Mandate" and other rules forcing us to violate our consciences. A few trolls got themselves arrested, attempting to disrupt us.

I hope to join the March For Life someday, if abortion does not end soon.

But I wouldn't join a pointless "anger march" against the likes of Hillary, had she won.

And I wouldn't join a counter-protest against Trump-haters or white supremacists.... they deserve to be ignored, repulsive extremists of the left and the right.
No, they deserve to taste the water cannon. I think that's what Bob is driving at--sometimes sitting still is not the answer.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:34 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:29 am
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 am
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
+JMJ+


It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Hillary won the popular vote in California. Trump won the popular vote in the rest of America.

We pray on sidewalks in front of abortion clinics because we want to be there, to love and offer help the women who are entering and who are leaving.

And we prayed at rosary rallies at the state Capitol mall, asserting and protecting our religious freedom against Obama's "HHS Mandate" and other rules forcing us to violate our consciences. A few trolls got themselves arrested, attempting to disrupt us.

I hope to join the March For Life someday, if abortion does not end soon.

But I wouldn't join a pointless "anger march" against the likes of Hillary, had she won.

And I wouldn't join a counter-protest against Trump-haters or white supremacists.... they deserve to be ignored, repulsive extremists of the left and the right.
No, they deserve to taste the water cannon. I think that's what Bob is driving at--sometimes sitting still is not the answer.
I agree: The city fathers were stupid for wanting to take down the monument, and the racists were stupid because that's all they've got, and the police were stupid in allowing a riot to develop.

My job is to ignore the stupid attention seekers... and to support the police, when they have to break up a protest before violence breaks out.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:51 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:29 am
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 am
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
+JMJ+


It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Hillary won the popular vote in California. Trump won the popular vote in the rest of America.

We pray on sidewalks in front of abortion clinics because we want to be there, to love and offer help the women who are entering and who are leaving.

And we prayed at rosary rallies at the state Capitol mall, asserting and protecting our religious freedom against Obama's "HHS Mandate" and other rules forcing us to violate our consciences. A few trolls got themselves arrested, attempting to disrupt us.

I hope to join the March For Life someday, if abortion does not end soon.

But I wouldn't join a pointless "anger march" against the likes of Hillary, had she won.

And I wouldn't join a counter-protest against Trump-haters or white supremacists.... they deserve to be ignored, repulsive extremists of the left and the right.
No, they deserve to taste the water cannon. I think that's what Bob is driving at--sometimes sitting still is not the answer.
Agreed.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by UncleBob » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:11 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 am
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
+JMJ+


It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Hillary won the popular vote in California. Trump won the popular vote in the rest of America.

We pray on sidewalks in front of abortion clinics because we want to be there, to love and offer help the women who are entering and who are leaving.

And we prayed at rosary rallies at the state Capitol mall, asserting and protecting our religious freedom against Obama's "HHS Mandate" and other rules forcing us to violate our consciences. A few trolls got themselves arrested, attempting to disrupt us.

I hope to join the March For Life someday, if abortion does not end soon.

But I wouldn't join a pointless "anger march" against the likes of Hillary, had she won.

And I wouldn't join a counter-protest against Trump-haters or white supremacists.... they deserve to be ignored, repulsive extremists of the left and the right.
Image
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:14 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:11 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 am
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:22 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 pm
+JMJ+


It is certainly not by rioting or becoming violent. It’s not by putting yourselves out on the street corners that we resist him. It is not in shouting up into the void above Fifth Avenue in New York that we express true discontent at his election despite having lost the popular vote.

No, we resist by doing the one thing that a celebrity can stand least. We resist by ignoring him and all of the people who may, rightly or wrongly, use his name to support racism, xenophobia, and sexism.
This is an interesting strategy. Well, except to resist abortion, right? :wink:
Hillary won the popular vote in California. Trump won the popular vote in the rest of America.

We pray on sidewalks in front of abortion clinics because we want to be there, to love and offer help the women who are entering and who are leaving.

And we prayed at rosary rallies at the state Capitol mall, asserting and protecting our religious freedom against Obama's "HHS Mandate" and other rules forcing us to violate our consciences. A few trolls got themselves arrested, attempting to disrupt us.

I hope to join the March For Life someday, if abortion does not end soon.

But I wouldn't join a pointless "anger march" against the likes of Hillary, had she won.

And I wouldn't join a counter-protest against Trump-haters or white supremacists.... they deserve to be ignored, repulsive extremists of the left and the right.
Image
Image
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:46 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:38 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:46 am
+JMJ+

Newcomers to the Church should speak less, listen more [Commentary]
Image
Cardinal Daniel N. DiNardo of Galveston-Houston baptizes a catechumen during the Easter Vigil at the Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart in Houston. (Credit: James Ramos/Texas Catholic Herald via CNS.)

David Mill, who entered the Church over 15 years ago, says a convert may know many of the Catholic details. He may be full of book-learning. But of the real Catholic mind or imagination — the Catholic paradigm, the way Catholics see the world — he knows little. The new Catholic must work for many years to get that, and never will get it fully.

[…]

The convert enters the Church at a disadvantage, because he enters it late when he has been deeply formed by another tradition. The more religious he was, the more he has to unlearn. He may know many of the Catholic details. He may be full of book-learning. But of the real Catholic mind or imagination - the Catholic paradigm, the way Catholics see the world - he knows little. The new Catholic must work for many years to get that, and never will get it fully.

Most converts, as I wrote in The New Oxford Review, will never think and feel exactly as do cradle Catholics. They do by instinct what we will always do by analysis followed by choice

[…]

Let me give two examples of truths I only began to see after some years within the Church. I needed to grow in the Faith to the point of saying “Well, of course.”

The first is the way Catholics feel about the Mother of God as a mother. When we entered the Church, I knew I could now relate to her as a son. But I felt (as I see it now) that I had to do so like someone submitting a form by mail to a high official, noted for her benevolence but still very far away.

[…]

The second example relates more closely to Faggioli’s and Ivereigh’s concerns. Converts tend not to have a sense of the Church as a living body moving through history. Our instinctive ecclesiology is more static, more a matter of settled rules to be obeyed than a life to be lived.

Converts may believe in the development of doctrine, and in fact include it as one of their reasons for converting. I did, but for a long time I didn’t see how it works.

Converts don’t trust it, because the process includes a lot of confusion and error. It requires something more like mobs arguing in bars and battling in the street than the genteel discussion around the table in an oak-paneled room they imagine.

It includes a pope who might speak ambiguously and challenge the Church to explain and defend practices thought settled in their present form, while being the Holy Father to whom submission is due.

We will tend to react to any questioning of the boundaries and feel the hard cases dangerously risky. We hold more doctrines to be settled than are actually settled, and dislike open questions.

The cradle Catholic doesn’t think twice when the boat enters stormy waters. He knows he’ll be okay. The convert tries to yell “Mayday! Mayday!” into the radio. This is especially true of those of us who came from the battles of the mainline churches, who know how easily those ships could sink. …
In my experience, converts come in with significantly more and better formation than the cradle Catholic was exposed to.

The focus and enthusiasm of a new convert should be welcomed and encouraged.

But this author takes a slightly different spin, encouraging the mighty new converts to listen more... even to flaky Catholics who don't know our own doctrine. That cafeteria Catholic might not be able to articulate the Immaculate Conception, but she wakes up every morning and says "Hello" to her Mother.

In living the Catholic life, relationship is the most important thing. Doctrines and moral laws are tools to help us grow closer to Christ... not ends in themselves.
As a convert, from Protestant to Orthodox/Catholic (and technically the Orthodox don't "convert" to the Catholic Church), I have pondered this a lot. There are some people who are born into a church and die there, spending their entire life there. Some of those barely wonder why. I can say that I have huge curiosity as to how Cradle Catholics (or cradle any other religious body) can go their whole life and not at least become curious about other churches, or denominations or religions, let alone be able to articulate the reason why they believe as they do in comparison to other religious bodies. Especially today when there are places where several different churches exist on one street in a single block!

To "put on Christ" from the cradle in the bosom of the Church must be special, I can only image, unsuccessfully. I know from my own journey, I've had to use my own limited abilities to discover why I believe what I do. Very early I called into question the basis of the faith community I was raised in. I was never very good at, "Because that's the way it is." Somehow, I "put on Christ" through slightly different perspectives, but only the Catholic Church seems to make sense, and even make room for many of those different perspectives, especially Orthodoxy. I can bring Orthodoxy with me as expressed in the Byzantine rite and still be Catholic, while also embracing the RCC and it's perspectives.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:40 pm

+JMJ+

Co-author of 'ecumenism of hate' article defends intervention as opening important debate
Image
The article claimed President Donald Trump - seen holding a religious liberty proclamation on the US national day of prayer in June - was using faith to promote right wing politics by promoting an “apocalyptic geopolitics”

… But in an interview with The Tablet, Figueroa said the wide ranging reaction shows the importance of the issues raised in the article although admitted they had “no idea it would be a big deal.” He and Fr Spadaro had simply focussed on outlining the “religious and ecumenical phenomenon” in the United States and had “tried to be respectful” in their reflections.

“All the opinions, reactions and points of view, both for and against, are welcome and show that it was necessary to open this debate,” the pastor, who the Pope appointed as editor-in-chief of the first Argentine version of L’Osservatore Romano, the official Vatican newspaper, said.

“The article describes a religious and ecumenical phenomenon developing in the United States that both of us know and have studied, alhough of course no one has the absolute truth or complete knowledge,” he explained in a written Spanish interview. “Although we’ve talked about this phenomenon in the USA it is also emerging in other countries, especially in Latin America where I have been studying ecumenism for more than two decades.”

[…]

Figueroa stressed that there are elements of the “ecumenism of love, encounter, peace, prayer” in the United States and that the article was not an exhaustive study.

“The article did not intend to study all the expressions of ecumenism and American religiosity, but to emphasise an aspect we thought was important, opening it up to serious and respectful debate,” he told The Tablet. …




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:21 pm

wosbald wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:40 pm
+JMJ+

Co-author of 'ecumenism of hate' article defends intervention as opening important debate
Image
The article claimed President Donald Trump - seen holding a religious liberty proclamation on the US national day of prayer in June - was using faith to promote right wing politics by promoting an “apocalyptic geopolitics”

… But in an interview with The Tablet, Figueroa said the wide ranging reaction shows the importance of the issues raised in the article although admitted they had “no idea it would be a big deal.” He and Fr Spadaro had simply focussed on outlining the “religious and ecumenical phenomenon” in the United States and had “tried to be respectful” in their reflections.

“All the opinions, reactions and points of view, both for and against, are welcome and show that it was necessary to open this debate,” the pastor, who the Pope appointed as editor-in-chief of the first Argentine version of L’Osservatore Romano, the official Vatican newspaper, said.

“The article describes a religious and ecumenical phenomenon developing in the United States that both of us know and have studied, alhough of course no one has the absolute truth or complete knowledge,” he explained in a written Spanish interview. “Although we’ve talked about this phenomenon in the USA it is also emerging in other countries, especially in Latin America where I have been studying ecumenism for more than two decades.”

[…]

Figueroa stressed that there are elements of the “ecumenism of love, encounter, peace, prayer” in the United States and that the article was not an exhaustive study.

“The article did not intend to study all the expressions of ecumenism and American religiosity, but to emphasise an aspect we thought was important, opening it up to serious and respectful debate,” he told The Tablet. …
I don't suppose that the "debate" involves an apology from Fr. Spadaro and Rev. Figueroa for insulting the Catholics and Evangelical Christians in America?

He should start by noting that he was wrong in presuming that we Christians are in any way motivated by "hate."

At least acknowledge that we voted against a regime of tyranny who have repeatedly expressed their hatred toward Christians. Please?
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:50 am

+JMJ+

Statue of first Catholic Supreme Court justice removed because he wrote Dred Scott decision
Image
Workers use a crane to lift the monument dedicated to U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Brooke Taney after it was removed from outside Maryland State House, in Annapolis, Md., early Friday, Aug. 18, 2017. Maryland workers hauled several monuments away, days after a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, turned deadly. (Credit: Jose Luis Magana/AP.

A statue of Roger B. Taney, the first Catholic to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court, was removed from the Maryland Statehouse, after objections were made to honoring the author of the Dred Scott decision, which upheld slavery. The removal came after the violent protests in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, with clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters which left one person dead.

ANNAPOLIS, Maryland - A statue of the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that upheld slavery and denied citizenship to African Americans was removed from the grounds of the Maryland State House early Friday.

The statue of Roger B. Taney was lifted away by a crane at about 2 a.m. It was lowered into a truck and driven away to storage.

Although most known for authoring the 7-2 Dred Scott decision, Taney was also an important figure in U.S. Catholic history.

He became the first Catholic to have served in a U.S. president’s cabinet when he was appointed Attorney General by Andrew Jackson in 1831. Taney later served as Secretary of War and Secretary of the Treasury under Jackson. He became the first Catholic Supreme Court Justice in 1836, after Jackson nominated him as Chief Justice to replace John Marshall the preceding December.

“Taney was regarded as a very good Catholic,” Father Michael Roach, a Church historian, told the Catholic Review in 2012. “It’s pretty impressive that he made it to the Supreme Court.”

Taney had once served as Attorney General of Maryland, and is still the only Maryland native to have served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

The bronze statue of him was erected in 1872, just outside the original front door of the State House.

Three of the four voting members of the State House Trust voted by email Wednesday to move the statue. House Speaker Michael Busch, a Democrat who was one of the three who voted to remove it, wrote this week that the statue “doesn’t belong” on the grounds. …




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:03 pm

+JMJ+

Vatican delegate: Every indication Medjugorje will be recognized, perhaps later this year
Image
Pilgrims pray around a statue of Mary on Apparition Hill in Medjugorje, Bosnia-Herzegovina, in this Feb. 26, 2011, file photo. (Credit: Paul Haring/CNS.)

Archbishop Henryk Hoser, sent by Pope Francis to study the pastoral situation in Medjugorje, said ministry at the site of the apparition was proper and consistent with the doctrine and teaching of the Church; as well as being effective and well organized.

[…]

Hoser told the KAI Catholic news agency that “from a pastoral point of view, there is a very positive result.”

“My mission was not to make a judgement on Medjugorje, but to evaluate whether the pastoral ministry was proper and consistent with the doctrine and teaching of the Church; and effective and well organized. I concluded that this is the case,” the archbishop said.

He said the site had the same character as Fatima, Lourdes, Lisieux and Czestochowa.

“The biggest phenomenon is confession,” Hoser told KAI. He mentioned there are over 50 confessionals, and the lines continue, even if it’s raining.

Koser said there were still “canonical-administrative” problems at the site - especially with relations with the local bishop - “but in my opinion, they are solvable.”

The archbishop said the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has provided all the documentation surrounding the alleged apparitions to the Secretariat of State, who are now working on it.

He said “every indication” is that the apparitions will be approved, even as early as this year.

“Specifically, I think it’s possible to recognize the authenticity of the first [seven] apparitions as proposed by the Ruini commission,” Hoser said. “Besides, it is difficult to get another verdict, because it’s difficult to believe that six seers will lie for 36 years. What they say has been consistent. They are not mentally incompetent. A strong argument for the authenticity of the apparitions is their faithfulness to the doctrine of the Church.” …




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:19 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:50 am
+JMJ+

Statue of first Catholic Supreme Court justice removed because he wrote Dred Scott decision
Image
Workers use a crane to lift the monument dedicated to U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Brooke Taney after it was removed from outside Maryland State House, in Annapolis, Md., early Friday, Aug. 18, 2017. Maryland workers hauled several monuments away, days after a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, turned deadly. (Credit: Jose Luis Magana/AP.

A statue of Roger B. Taney, the first Catholic to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court, was removed from the Maryland Statehouse, after objections were made to honoring the author of the Dred Scott decision, which upheld slavery. The removal came after the violent protests in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, with clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters which left one person dead.

ANNAPOLIS, Maryland - A statue of the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that upheld slavery and denied citizenship to African Americans was removed from the grounds of the Maryland State House early Friday.

The statue of Roger B. Taney was lifted away by a crane at about 2 a.m. It was lowered into a truck and driven away to storage.

Although most known for authoring the 7-2 Dred Scott decision, Taney was also an important figure in U.S. Catholic history.

He became the first Catholic to have served in a U.S. president’s cabinet when he was appointed Attorney General by Andrew Jackson in 1831. Taney later served as Secretary of War and Secretary of the Treasury under Jackson. He became the first Catholic Supreme Court Justice in 1836, after Jackson nominated him as Chief Justice to replace John Marshall the preceding December.

“Taney was regarded as a very good Catholic,” Father Michael Roach, a Church historian, told the Catholic Review in 2012. “It’s pretty impressive that he made it to the Supreme Court.”

Taney had once served as Attorney General of Maryland, and is still the only Maryland native to have served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

The bronze statue of him was erected in 1872, just outside the original front door of the State House.

Three of the four voting members of the State House Trust voted by email Wednesday to move the statue. House Speaker Michael Busch, a Democrat who was one of the three who voted to remove it, wrote this week that the statue “doesn’t belong” on the grounds. …
It's not really about the monuments. Just as it was not really about bathrooms.

It is about silencing anyone before he dares to speak with common sense.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:39 pm

Del wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:19 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:50 am
+JMJ+

Statue of first Catholic Supreme Court justice removed because he wrote Dred Scott decision
Image
Workers use a crane to lift the monument dedicated to U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Brooke Taney after it was removed from outside Maryland State House, in Annapolis, Md., early Friday, Aug. 18, 2017. Maryland workers hauled several monuments away, days after a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, turned deadly. (Credit: Jose Luis Magana/AP.

A statue of Roger B. Taney, the first Catholic to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court, was removed from the Maryland Statehouse, after objections were made to honoring the author of the Dred Scott decision, which upheld slavery. The removal came after the violent protests in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, with clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters which left one person dead.

ANNAPOLIS, Maryland - A statue of the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that upheld slavery and denied citizenship to African Americans was removed from the grounds of the Maryland State House early Friday.

The statue of Roger B. Taney was lifted away by a crane at about 2 a.m. It was lowered into a truck and driven away to storage.

Although most known for authoring the 7-2 Dred Scott decision, Taney was also an important figure in U.S. Catholic history.

He became the first Catholic to have served in a U.S. president’s cabinet when he was appointed Attorney General by Andrew Jackson in 1831. Taney later served as Secretary of War and Secretary of the Treasury under Jackson. He became the first Catholic Supreme Court Justice in 1836, after Jackson nominated him as Chief Justice to replace John Marshall the preceding December.

“Taney was regarded as a very good Catholic,” Father Michael Roach, a Church historian, told the Catholic Review in 2012. “It’s pretty impressive that he made it to the Supreme Court.”

Taney had once served as Attorney General of Maryland, and is still the only Maryland native to have served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

The bronze statue of him was erected in 1872, just outside the original front door of the State House.

Three of the four voting members of the State House Trust voted by email Wednesday to move the statue. House Speaker Michael Busch, a Democrat who was one of the three who voted to remove it, wrote this week that the statue “doesn’t belong” on the grounds. …
It's not really about the monuments. Just as it was not really about bathrooms.

It is about silencing anyone before he dares to speak with common sense.
What? :?

How about reading about the Dred Scott case, just the court opinion portion that Taney wrote.

The Dred Scott decision ranks right up there with Roe V Wade.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:06 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:39 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:19 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:50 am
+JMJ+

Statue of first Catholic Supreme Court justice removed because he wrote Dred Scott decision
Image
Workers use a crane to lift the monument dedicated to U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Brooke Taney after it was removed from outside Maryland State House, in Annapolis, Md., early Friday, Aug. 18, 2017. Maryland workers hauled several monuments away, days after a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, turned deadly. (Credit: Jose Luis Magana/AP.

A statue of Roger B. Taney, the first Catholic to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court, was removed from the Maryland Statehouse, after objections were made to honoring the author of the Dred Scott decision, which upheld slavery. The removal came after the violent protests in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, with clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters which left one person dead.

ANNAPOLIS, Maryland - A statue of the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that upheld slavery and denied citizenship to African Americans was removed from the grounds of the Maryland State House early Friday.

The statue of Roger B. Taney was lifted away by a crane at about 2 a.m. It was lowered into a truck and driven away to storage.

Although most known for authoring the 7-2 Dred Scott decision, Taney was also an important figure in U.S. Catholic history.

He became the first Catholic to have served in a U.S. president’s cabinet when he was appointed Attorney General by Andrew Jackson in 1831. Taney later served as Secretary of War and Secretary of the Treasury under Jackson. He became the first Catholic Supreme Court Justice in 1836, after Jackson nominated him as Chief Justice to replace John Marshall the preceding December.

“Taney was regarded as a very good Catholic,” Father Michael Roach, a Church historian, told the Catholic Review in 2012. “It’s pretty impressive that he made it to the Supreme Court.”

Taney had once served as Attorney General of Maryland, and is still the only Maryland native to have served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

The bronze statue of him was erected in 1872, just outside the original front door of the State House.

Three of the four voting members of the State House Trust voted by email Wednesday to move the statue. House Speaker Michael Busch, a Democrat who was one of the three who voted to remove it, wrote this week that the statue “doesn’t belong” on the grounds. …
It's not really about the monuments. Just as it was not really about bathrooms.

It is about silencing anyone before he dares to speak with common sense.
What? :?

How about reading about the Dred Scott case, just the court opinion portion that Taney wrote.

The Dred Scott decision ranks right up there with Roe V Wade.
"Political correctness." It's not about goodness or truth. It's about controlling what people can't say or think.

Yes, Dred Scott is as bad as Roe v. Wade. Try saying that to the people who want this statue removed.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:35 pm

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:06 pm
"Political correctness." It's not about goodness or truth. It's about controlling what people can't say or think.

Yes, Dred Scott is as bad as Roe v. Wade. Try saying that to the people who want this statue removed.
Bingo.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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