I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Where Fellowship and Camaraderie lives: that place where the CPS membership values fun and good fellowship as the cement of the community
Post Reply
User avatar
infidel
kthxbai
kthxbai
Posts: 6182
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:00 pm

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by infidel » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm

Wait, I re-read the direct quote:

"How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that: scandal."

Notice the nested quotations. The pope is not saying "it's better to be an atheist", he's quoting other people "around the neighborhood and elsewhere" saying that. So he's really just pointing out what scandal is causing non-catholics to think about Catholics.

So this is fake news. Good job, Bob :P
Last edited by infidel on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inadvertently emboldening the cause of naïve Evolutionism since 2016.

"Who the hell ponders placentas? Dude, you're a freak of nature." - DepartedLight

"One man's saint is another man's infidel." - hugodrax

"Total. Freaking. Win." - Skip

User avatar
tuttle
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
Posts: 12022
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:55 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:32 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:29 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:27 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:41 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:20 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:13 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:01 pm
Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a bad Christian
"So many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others," Francis said during morning Mass at Casa Santa Marta, according to Vatican Radio. "How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that, scandal."

"But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another
So what do you think he meant? Do you think he meant one should be an atheist or a Jew?
I'm still looking for the transcript of the homily but I suspect he means, "Don't be a bad Christian".
What's a bad Christian?
In the quote he defined it: "scandalous" where Christians say one thing and do another.
So you think he's saying to Catholics to not only outwardly express their religion, but inwardly live it as well?
If you're a Christian who exploits people, leads a double life or manages a "dirty" business, perhaps it's better not to call yourself a believer, Pope Francis suggested in a homily on Thursday in Rome.
So you're source for what the pope intends his words to mean is what the author says they mean? How do you know the author is accurately capturing the popes intent?

Do you think he's telling you its better to be an atheist? How could it be?
@
Sorry. I could tell you what I think it means, but all that ever does is piss off protestants.
Jesus more or less told a lukewarm church that he prefer they to be hot or cold rather than remain as they were. I think that's what the Pope was getting at. (Or at least that's how this protestant is choosing to interpret the Pope :wink: )
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

The Reformation Drinking Song

User avatar
hugodrax
All Around Nice Guy
All Around Nice Guy
Posts: 14902
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:50 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:55 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:32 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:29 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:27 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:41 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:20 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:13 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:01 pm
Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a bad Christian
"So many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others," Francis said during morning Mass at Casa Santa Marta, according to Vatican Radio. "How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that, scandal."

"But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another
So what do you think he meant? Do you think he meant one should be an atheist or a Jew?
I'm still looking for the transcript of the homily but I suspect he means, "Don't be a bad Christian".
What's a bad Christian?
In the quote he defined it: "scandalous" where Christians say one thing and do another.
So you think he's saying to Catholics to not only outwardly express their religion, but inwardly live it as well?
If you're a Christian who exploits people, leads a double life or manages a "dirty" business, perhaps it's better not to call yourself a believer, Pope Francis suggested in a homily on Thursday in Rome.
So you're source for what the pope intends his words to mean is what the author says they mean? How do you know the author is accurately capturing the popes intent?

Do you think he's telling you its better to be an atheist? How could it be?
@
Sorry. I could tell you what I think it means, but all that ever does is piss off protestants.
Jesus more or less told a lukewarm church that he prefer they to be hot or cold rather than remain as they were. I think that's what the Pope was getting at. (Or at least that's how this protestant is choosing to interpret the Pope :wink: )
And for all I know, you're right. I see him as binding in sin those who disagree with him.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18016
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:54 pm

+JMJ+
infidel wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm
Wait, I re-read the direct quote:

"How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that: scandal."

Notice the nested quotations. The pope is not saying "it's better to be an atheist", he's quoting other people "around the neighborhood and elsewhere" saying that. So he's really just pointing out what scandal is causing non-catholics to think about Catholics.

So this is fake news. Good job, Bob :P
I wondered who was gonna be the first to notice that, or more accurately, who was gonna be the first to say it. :lol:




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
infidel
kthxbai
kthxbai
Posts: 6182
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:00 pm

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by infidel » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:56 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:54 pm
+JMJ+
infidel wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm
Wait, I re-read the direct quote:

"How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that: scandal."

Notice the nested quotations. The pope is not saying "it's better to be an atheist", he's quoting other people "around the neighborhood and elsewhere" saying that. So he's really just pointing out what scandal is causing non-catholics to think about Catholics.

So this is fake news. Good job, Bob :P
I wondered who was gonna be the first to notice that, or more accurately, who was gonna be the first to say it. :lol:
What do I win? :bacon:
Inadvertently emboldening the cause of naïve Evolutionism since 2016.

"Who the hell ponders placentas? Dude, you're a freak of nature." - DepartedLight

"One man's saint is another man's infidel." - hugodrax

"Total. Freaking. Win." - Skip

User avatar
hugodrax
All Around Nice Guy
All Around Nice Guy
Posts: 14902
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:05 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:56 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:54 pm
+JMJ+
infidel wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm
Wait, I re-read the direct quote:

"How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that: scandal."

Notice the nested quotations. The pope is not saying "it's better to be an atheist", he's quoting other people "around the neighborhood and elsewhere" saying that. So he's really just pointing out what scandal is causing non-catholics to think about Catholics.

So this is fake news. Good job, Bob :P
I wondered who was gonna be the first to notice that, or more accurately, who was gonna be the first to say it. :lol:
What do I win? :bacon:
Respect. I laughed hard.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 20858
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Ad Orientem

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:29 pm

And oh my god, that's strong word. An atheist? You mean those worse people on the earth? Gasp!

User avatar
Skip
Everything in Moderatoration
Everything in Moderatoration
Posts: 23817
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:00 pm
Location: Slightly East of Pepik
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Skip » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:09 am

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:29 pm
And oh my god, that's strong word. An atheist? You mean those worse people on the earth? Gasp!
Dude, any chance of getting a translation? Into English?
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 Winner of the CPS Award: "Most Likely to be Found Without Pants at Any Given Moment"

"No man is peer to Skip, peasant." -A_Morley

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 32420
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:12 pm

Pope Francis suggests an openness to ordaining married men as priests
Pope Francis has suggested he would be open to studying whether the Catholic Church should ordain men who are married as priests to help deal with the shortage of clergy in remote areas of the world.

In an interview with the German newspaper Die Zeit published on Thursday, Francis said the church will maintain its standard of celibacy for most priests throughout the world, but it could study the idea of allowing “viri probati” — married men of proven faith — to be ordained.

If the idea were studied and approved by the Catholic Church, it would be an extension of a provision the church already has to accommodate married priests in exceptional cases. Priests in the eastern rite Catholic Church are allowed to be married, and during his short tenure Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI began allowing married Anglican priests who have converted to Catholicism to serve.

Francis has said in the past that priests should be celibate, but the rule was not dogma, and “the door is always open” to change. His latest interview suggested a particular case in which the church could consider ordaining married priests, such as clergy in remote locations.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

User avatar
Onyx
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Posts: 10802
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Skeptopolis

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Onyx » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:11 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:55 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:32 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:29 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:27 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:41 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:20 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:13 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:01 pm
Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a bad Christian
"So many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others," Francis said during morning Mass at Casa Santa Marta, according to Vatican Radio. "How many times have we heard -- all of us, around the neighborhood and elsewhere -- 'But to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that, scandal."

"But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another
So what do you think he meant? Do you think he meant one should be an atheist or a Jew?
I'm still looking for the transcript of the homily but I suspect he means, "Don't be a bad Christian".
What's a bad Christian?
In the quote he defined it: "scandalous" where Christians say one thing and do another.
So you think he's saying to Catholics to not only outwardly express their religion, but inwardly live it as well?
If you're a Christian who exploits people, leads a double life or manages a "dirty" business, perhaps it's better not to call yourself a believer, Pope Francis suggested in a homily on Thursday in Rome.
So you're source for what the pope intends his words to mean is what the author says they mean? How do you know the author is accurately capturing the popes intent?

Do you think he's telling you its better to be an atheist? How could it be?
@
Sorry. I could tell you what I think it means, but all that ever does is piss off protestants.
Jesus more or less told a lukewarm church that he prefer they to be hot or cold rather than remain as they were. I think that's what the Pope was getting at. (Or at least that's how this protestant is choosing to interpret the Pope :wink: )
Lukewarm is not the same as hypocritical. A person may be sincerely and consistently lukewarm with an honest and well reasoned lukewarm conviction.
4. No more signatures that quote other CPS members.
-- Thunktank

User avatar
hugodrax
All Around Nice Guy
All Around Nice Guy
Posts: 14902
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:34 pm

Image
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

User avatar
Onyx
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Posts: 10802
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Skeptopolis

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Onyx » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:20 pm

Onyx wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:11 pm
Lukewarm is not the same as hypocritical. A person may be sincerely and consistently lukewarm with an honest and well reasoned lukewarm conviction.
I was kinda hoping someone would cross-stitch that quote with a garden scene and hang it above the kitchen sink.
4. No more signatures that quote other CPS members.
-- Thunktank

User avatar
Onyx
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Posts: 10802
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Skeptopolis

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Onyx » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:21 pm

Pope opens a free laundromat for homeless people.

https://www.americamagazine.org/politic ... ns-vatican
4. No more signatures that quote other CPS members.
-- Thunktank

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18016
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:18 am

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:10 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:32 am
… I see that both of your [Hugo's and Wos'] interpretations fall within the bounds of orthodoxy...again, I'm not sure if I ever even questioned that. But you do point out that you are obligated to assume the Pope's meaning falls within those same bounds. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but what happens when the Pope really does say something that is out of bounds? Is he free to state basically whatever if you are obliged to assume whatever he says falls within the bounds of orthodoxy?

Again, I see the Pope saying things to and about Protestants that don't align with what Catholicism teaches (or what I've been told Catholicism teaches whether historically or dogmatically). And I know Catholics hear it too, because they are always rushing to say that the Pope really means 'business as usual'. "Lutherans can take the Eucharist"...not really. "Ecumenism is taking place between Catholics and Lutherans"...not really. But if you are obliged to assume that whatever he says falls within the bounds of orthodoxy, I guess I kind of found my answer as to why I always thought this Pope was so confusing. …
… The long and the short of it is, in this world, there are very few black and white issues. It is entirely possible for a man addressing Lutherans and Catholics to address them separately, each according to their differing traditions, in a single document. That "we" which you think is so obvious changes meanings depending on the group being referenced. I count four plausible groups/people being addressed: the Lutherans, the Catholics, the Lutherans and the Catholics, and the Pope himself.

And if you take what he said about the Eucharist to mean the Lutherans can take the Eucharist, I'd point out to you that the Lutherans themselves did not interpret it that way. Instead, they sent a delegation. …

New Swedish cardinal says inter-communion with Lutherans ‘not possible’
Image
Pope Francis, right, meets the President of the Lutheran World Federation Bishop Munib Younan during an ecumenical prayer in the Lund Lutheran cathedral, Sweden, Monday, Oct. 31, 2016. (Credit: L'Osservatore Romano/Pool Photo via AP.)

Although newly minted Cardinal Anders Arborelius of Sweden is a convert from Lutheranism and believes in the press for closer ties with the Lutheran church, he's also realistic about the present limits of that quest, saying that given different understandings of the real presence in the Eucharist, right now Lutherans and Catholics "cannot possibly celebrate together."

STOCKHOLM, Sweden - Although Pope Francis may have had outreach to the churches of the Reformation in mind when he named Bishop Anders Arborelius a cardinal, since the Swedish prelate leads a small Catholic church in an officially Lutheran country, Arborelius himself isn’t quite there yet on at least one vexed issue: Inter-communion.

“Many in the Lutheran Church now say, ‘We have come to an agreement, now we must celebrate the Eucharist together’,” Arborelius said recently, referring to a 1999 joint agreement between the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation on the doctrine of justification.

“We have to say, ‘No, we haven’t come so far in our mutual dialogue,’ and, of course, this will create a kind of frustration among many of the Lutherans that we cannot possibly celebrate together,” he said.

Arborelius and I sat together in his office in Götgatan Street on the Southern Isle of Stockholm on June 12, two weeks prior to his being made a cardinal by Pope Francis in Rome on June 28.

The following are extracts of that conversation. …




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 32420
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:47 pm

Conservative Roman Catholic theologians accuse pope of spreading heresy
None of the signatories of the new letter is a cardinal, and the highest-ranking churchman listed is actually someone whose organization has no legal standing in the Catholic Church: Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior of the breakaway Society of St. Pius X. Several other signatories are well-known admirers of the old Latin Mass which Fellay's followers celebrate.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18016
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:07 am

+JMJ+

Clergy and Lay Scholars Issue Filial Correction of Pope Francis
No accusation of formal heresy

The signatories stress they are not accusing the Pope of formal heresy (when a person departs from the faith by doubting or denying some revealed truth with a full choice of the will), and are making “no judgment about Pope Francis’s culpability in propagating the seven heresies” as it is “not their task to judge about whether the sin of heresy has been committed.”

[…]

See here the full text of the correction, and the list of signatories. …
This may be a political dick-move, but ultimately, that's all it is: a dick-move. Posturing. Grandstanding. And it could well be damnable dickery for the participants. I can only hope that the "'dubia' cardinals" refrain from these scurrilous tactics.

This tactic is as viable as accusing Aquinas or Augustine of "spreading heresy", since it is possible to take their theologies in an heretical sense (the latter, perhaps most notably, by certain Protestant sects).

So, it's possible to take Amoris in an heretical sense. But interestingly, none in the Church yet has (at least, not as a public phenomenon/movement). And this includes the oft-maligned Argentinean bishops.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
tuttle
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
Posts: 12022
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:19 am

So...remember when I said
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:32 am
Again, I see the Pope saying things to and about Protestants that don't align with what Catholicism teaches (or what I've been told Catholicism teaches whether historically or dogmatically). And I know Catholics hear it too, because they are always rushing to say that the Pope really means 'business as usual'. "Lutherans can take the Eucharist"...not really. "Ecumenism is taking place between Catholics and Lutherans"...not really.
and
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:32 am
what happens when the Pope really does say something that is out of bounds?
Two things. A statement and a question.

1) Please forgive me if I feel a smidge justified that, at least, a certain segment of Catholics are seeing what I'm seeing. (However, for what it's worth, I wasn't thinking that Pope saying Lutherans can take the Eucharist is something that propagates heresy.)

2) In regards to my theoretical question about what happens if the Pope really does say something out of bounds...is the Filial Correction the route the Roman Church would take?

Lastly, is the Filial Correction a big deal? Does it have legs? I read somewhere that the last time this happened was in ye olde medieval days and was understood as legit then. Even if it's a political dick move, what are the implications of something like this?

EDIT: should the Filial Correction have it's own thread?
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

The Reformation Drinking Song

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18016
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:40 am

+JMJ+

So far, this pope has been holding back.

But, as he showed with the "Nigerian bishop" issue, he is not totally unwilling to flex his muscles. If I was him, not only would I not answer the 4 cardinals' dubia (the dubia is essentially unanswerable, but it doesn't seem to demand a counter-response), but I would simply steal-the-thunder of this insolent act with a counter-demand which must be answered. Hell, I'll even write out the broad-strokes for them. All they have to do is to make all of the correctio's signatories solemnly attest to something like the following:
I, N.N., admit and embrace that the Supreme Law of the Church is the salvation of souls, and I detest and abjure the error that the Church's Supreme Law is to be understood as the universal obtaining of Canon Law in all particular cases.
That would deflate their balloon, and shut them up right quick. And it would make them publicly admit — at least, implicitly and with egg on their faces — that their real concern is not, and never has been, dogmatic, but rather, has always been pastoral.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 35717
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:29 pm

tuttle wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:19 am
So...remember when I said
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:32 am
Again, I see the Pope saying things to and about Protestants that don't align with what Catholicism teaches (or what I've been told Catholicism teaches whether historically or dogmatically). And I know Catholics hear it too, because they are always rushing to say that the Pope really means 'business as usual'. "Lutherans can take the Eucharist"...not really. "Ecumenism is taking place between Catholics and Lutherans"...not really.
and
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:32 am
what happens when the Pope really does say something that is out of bounds?
Two things. A statement and a question.

1) Please forgive me if I feel a smidge justified that, at least, a certain segment of Catholics are seeing what I'm seeing. (However, for what it's worth, I wasn't thinking that Pope saying Lutherans can take the Eucharist is something that propagates heresy.)

2) In regards to my theoretical question about what happens if the Pope really does say something out of bounds...is the Filial Correction the route the Roman Church would take?

Lastly, is the Filial Correction a big deal? Does it have legs? I read somewhere that the last time this happened was in ye olde medieval days and was understood as legit then. Even if it's a political dick move, what are the implications of something like this?

EDIT: should the Filial Correction have it's own thread?
There is not a clean, simple answer to your question. While the Church does indeed have a glorious and formidable bureaucracy, this is not the only tool that the Holy Spirit has in His Divine Tool Box for guiding us on the path of the Divine Truth.

Throughout history, the Holy Spirit has raised up great saints to guide us when the human Church seems to heading off the path.

St. Athanasius was the hero against the Arian heresy (not St. Nicholas, sorry to say). Stood his ground as bishop in exile.

St. Augustine was the response to the Manichean gnosticism. Wrote books.

St. Dominic was the champion during the Albigensian heresy. Led a missionary crusade.

Many, many Catholic martyrs during the Protestant Reformation. St. Francis de Sales invented the Bible tract re-converted Geneva.. St. Pius V led the Council of Trent and the "Counter Reformation" -- which dealt with the real errors that sparked the Reformation, before it became political.

St. John Paul II's reign was devoted to the authentic implementation of Vatican II. He is still an inspiration to Catholics of the New Evangelization, healing the errors and excesses and scandals that appeared as the Council was hijacked by secular activists.

On the other hand, sometimes the "Sense of the Faithful" is more attuned to the Holy Spirit than the theologians and official rulers. You can see this now, in the desire of the Apostolic Christians to heal the Great Schism dividing Easter and Western Christians. Still looking for a great saint to to guide us through.... I had money on Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Shenouda III

If we were to have a Pope who is genuinely asserting some error, the Holy Spirit will find a way to stop it.... eventually. It may start with some faithful bishops and cardinals and theologians offering "Dubia" and "Filial Correction." Or by founders of new religious Orders, such as St. Dominic and Mother Teresa. Or an Apparition of Mary, such as Fatima and dozens more during the 20th century.

It's in God's hands. If we are faithful, we let Him use us.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

User avatar
tuttle
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
Posts: 12022
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:43 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:19 am
So...remember when I said
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:32 am
Again, I see the Pope saying things to and about Protestants that don't align with what Catholicism teaches (or what I've been told Catholicism teaches whether historically or dogmatically). And I know Catholics hear it too, because they are always rushing to say that the Pope really means 'business as usual'. "Lutherans can take the Eucharist"...not really. "Ecumenism is taking place between Catholics and Lutherans"...not really.
and
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:32 am
what happens when the Pope really does say something that is out of bounds?
Two things. A statement and a question.

1) Please forgive me if I feel a smidge justified that, at least, a certain segment of Catholics are seeing what I'm seeing. (However, for what it's worth, I wasn't thinking that Pope saying Lutherans can take the Eucharist is something that propagates heresy.)

2) In regards to my theoretical question about what happens if the Pope really does say something out of bounds...is the Filial Correction the route the Roman Church would take?

Lastly, is the Filial Correction a big deal? Does it have legs? I read somewhere that the last time this happened was in ye olde medieval days and was understood as legit then. Even if it's a political dick move, what are the implications of something like this?

EDIT: should the Filial Correction have it's own thread?
There is not a clean, simple answer to your question. While the Church does indeed have a glorious and formidable bureaucracy, this is not the only tool that the Holy Spirit has in His Divine Tool Box for guiding us on the path of the Divine Truth.
Image

Del wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:29 pm

Throughout history, the Holy Spirit has raised up great saints to guide us when the human Church seems to heading off the path.

St. Athanasius [and other examples]

It's in God's hands. If we are faithful, we let Him use us.
I actually really appreciate (and more or less agree with) this answer. Pretty much how I view the rise of saints like Hus and Luther.
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

The Reformation Drinking Song

Post Reply