I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:40 pm

Cleon wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:22 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:42 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:29 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:25 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:55 am
I can't take anymore. Time out before this goes ballistic.
FWIW, I am a Reformation minded Christian. Presbyterian. Calvinist too. I'm even in the midst of planning a community Reformation Day service focusing on the 5 solas. Del's comments are not offensive to me at all. He's a Catholic. He is speaking as a Catholic . I find it refreshing for him to say plainly what he means. It's not a personal attack. I look on the bright side: 500 years later and we aren't killing each other.
+1
It's not the regulars who enjoy this sort of thing anyone has to worry about, Cleon.
Oh, I know. The comment was meant mostly for Del's benefit. I should have quoted him and pointed it at him. Strong convictions and all being what they are, I understand where he's coming from.

It just irks me that big brother has our forum by the cojones and there's nothing that can really be done about it. I wouldn't want to be a moderator at all. My hat is off to you guys who have to deal with it all.
Let me make it clear that Big Brother had nothing to do with this one. I saw the potential for annoyance and was about to type something myself, so I locked it for a moment to let any potential tempers, including my own, die down.

I believe strongly that theology discussions anywhere have a real potential for insult. Sometimes we mean to and sometimes we don't but it happens anyway. I have definitely given insult here, both unintentionally and intentionally. But I do try not to (probably not as hard as I should)--when I saw the comparison to Mohammed, I just shut it down for a minute so everyone knew to be cool and analyze rather than react.

I'm with you about strong convictions. Men that have them deserve respect and the mark of a Christian, the mark I fail at all too often, is that of consideration and calmness in the face of contrary opinions. That's what makes this so difficult and so special of a place--we fail and we forgive and we pray for each other even when we think the other guy is dead wrong.

One man's saint is another man's infidel. It's good to see so many people understand this and I'm glad nobody got angered.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by infidel » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:54 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:40 pm
One man's saint is another man's infidel.
You rang?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:56 pm

infidel wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:54 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:40 pm
One man's saint is another man's infidel.
You rang?
Butt dial. :D
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:39 am

+JMJ+

‘Amoris Laetitia’ is built on traditional Thomist morality, pope says
Image
Pope Francis speaks during a meeting with Jesuits and laypeople associated with Jesuit institutions in Cartagena, Colombia, Sept. 10. While replying to questions, the pope said that seeking to understand people's real lives does not "bastardize" theology. In the background is Jesuit Father Antonio Spadaro, editor of the Rome-based Jesuit journal, La Civilta Cattolica. (Credit: CNS photo/courtesy La Civilta Cattolica.)

Pope Francis told a group of Jesuits in Colombia that many of the commentaries on his post-synodal apostolic exhortation on the family, 'Amoris Laetitia,' are "respectable because they were made by children of God," but they are "wrong." To those who maintain that the morality underlying the document is not "a Catholic morality," the pope said, "I want to repeat clearly that the morality of 'Amoris Laetitia' is Thomist."

ROME - Seeing, understanding and engaging with people’s real lives does not “bastardize” theology, rather it is what is needed to guide people toward God, Pope Francis told Jesuits in Colombia.

“The theology of Jesus was the most real thing of all; it began with reality and rose up to the Father,” he said during a private audience Sept. 10 in Cartagena, Colombia. The Rome-based Jesuit-run journal, La Civilta Cattolica, published a transcript from the meeting Sept. 28. The journal provided its own translations of the original Spanish remarks.

[…]

One of best and “most mature” theologians today who can explain the document, he told them, is Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schonborn of Vienna.

“I want to say this so that you can help those who believe that morality is purely casuistic,” he said, meaning a morality that changes according to particular cases and circumstances rather than one that determines a general approach that should guide the church’s pastoral activity.

The pope had made a similar point during his meeting with Jesuits gathered in Rome for their general congregation in 2016. There he said, “In the field of morality, we must advance without falling into situationalism.”

“St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure affirm that the general principle holds for all but - they say it explicitly - as one moves to the particular, the question becomes diversified and many nuances arise without changing the principle,” he had said. It is a method that was used for the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Amoris Laetitia, he added. …




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:39 pm

+JMJ+

Pope’s deputy urges dialogue after Francis accused of heresy
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Cardinal Pietro Parolin, Vatican secretary of state, is seen at the Vatican May 26. (Credit: Paul Haring/CNS.)

Cardinal Pietro Parolin said Thursday that those who don't agree with the pope are free to express themselves, "but on these things one must reason and find ways to understand one another." His remarks were in response to a so-called "filial correction," prepared by a few dozen traditionalist academics and clergy, accusing Pope Francis of propagating seven heretical positions concerning marriage, moral life and the sacraments with his 2016 document 'Amoris Laetitia.'

[…]

Parolin’s comments marked the Vatican’s first response to the formal accusations made public last weekend. …




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:17 pm

Oh. Crux. Qu'elle surprise.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:36 pm

The dust-farters and the rainbow-farters are all a tizzy. This Pope rocks.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:41 am

+JMJ+

A deeper look at the 'filial correction' of Pope Francis
Image
Pope Francis celebrates Mass in St. Peter's Basilica on September 2, 2015. Credit: L'Osservatore Romano.

… Rather, they [the correctio's signatories] claim to correct the Pope “on inaction in condemning seven propositions [of heresy],” Wood said, and thus “the title of the filial correction is in some ways misleading.”

In the letter, explained Wood, “the Pope is merely being accused by these theologians of inaction in condemning heresy that they don’t have the authority to claim that he actually committed.”

The letter poses “the danger of scandal,” he said, because the authors are “attributing heretical propositions to the Pope, when those heretical propositions are not demonstrated as coming directly from the Pope’s writings.” …




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:53 am

+JMJ+

'Filial correction' of pope marked by glaring hypocrisy, risible accusations
Image
Copies of Pope Francis' apostolic exhortation "Amoris Laetitia" ("The Joy of Love") at the document's release at the Vatican April 8, 2016. (CNS/Paul Haring)

… We can see that this cynical attempt at forcing the hand of the pope is nothing more than a charade. It comes from a group that does not really trust in the Holy Spirit’s desire or ability to guide and protect the church.

In the light of this sorry episode and the continual angst showed by so many traditionalists on social media, I believe there is a need for the traditionalist movement to do some serious soul searching. If they think this is the way to please the Lord, then they don’t know the Lord.

I will end with one final warning about how hypocrisy can come back to bite you. In 2012, during Benedict’s pontificate, Rorate Caeli posted a large quote from St. Pius X intended to instruct all readers to obey the pope. The headline ran: “Love the Pope! — no ifs, and no buts.”

This is part of the quote. I am sure readers will need no further explanation:

“Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed … we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.”




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:41 pm

+JMJ+

Pope Francis is no heretic
… You do not need to subscribe to any of the conspiracy theories doing the run around the Tiber to divine the presence of senior prelates hovering in the background. There have been a few curial cardinals who have not had their appointments renewed, been shuffled to lesser duties, more honorific than substantive, licking their wounds amongst other aggrieved servants of the Servant of God. And they don't like their boss.

Time for Francis to request a public pledge of loyalty from the College of Cardinals, his electors, the esteemed members of his "cabinet," those who take a special vow of fealty on the election of a new pope, these men – and they are all men in conformity with ancient practice – should, in unison and in a public not private manner, stand should to shoulder with the successor of Peter, and with no equivocations or reservations, affirm their loyalty to Francis.

No less a message than this can forestall the growth of such obscurantism as found in the Correctio. It isn't the Pope, however, who requires correction.

We don't need 1333 recidivus. At a time when the moral authority of the papacy has achieved global recognition, the gnawing away at the witness of Francis by those held hostage to an ahistorical ecclesiology, a desiccated governance system, and a pastoral leadership defined more by law than mercy, the signatories, and those they represent, need to be held to account.




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:16 pm

+JMJ+

Vicar general of Opus Dei sees ‘filial correction’ as a scandal
Image

CWN Editor's Note: Msgr. Mariano Fazio, the vicar general of the prelature of Opus Dei, said that the “filial correction” of Pope Francis made public by a group of lay people last week was a “totally wrong” approach. Those who signed the appeal, he said, “scandalize the whole Church.”
Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, the former president of the Vatican bank who signed the “filial correction,” is a member of Opus Dei. Msgr. Fazio said flatly: “I think he was wrong, too, like the others who signed.”

» Continue to this story on Infovatican [Spanish]




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:40 am

+JMJ+

“The correctio? The method is incorrect: they do not discuss, they condemn”
Image
Rocco Buttiglione

Italian philosopher Buttiglione answers and takes apart one by one all the seven allegations of heresy addressed to Francis, “If one draws the logical consequences of their affirmations, even the same critics admit that in some cases remarried-and-divorced can be free from grave fault and therefore can receive communion”

[…]

Before going over the 7 heresies, I would like to take a minute on the language used: the authors include certain affirmations (propositions) suggesting that the Pope wrote, said or supported them: actually, none of these were affirmed by Francis. Is this a correct method?

"No, it is not a correct method. The propositions do not correctly summarize the Pope's thought. Let's take an example: in their second proposition they attribute to the Pope the affirmation that the divorced/remarried person who chooses to remain in this state with full knowledge of the nature of their act and full consent of the will to that act, is in God's grace. The Pope says another thing: in some cases, a divorced/remarried person who remains in that state without full knowledge and full consent can be in God's grace".

Why is this example significant?

"Critics began by arguing that under no circumstances can remarried-and-divorced be in God's grace. Then someone (I, for example, I) reminded them that to have a mortal sin is necessary not only a grave matter (and adultery is certainly a grave matter of sin) but also have full knowledge and full consent of the will to that act. Now they seem to be going backwards: they have also understood that in some cases the remarried-and-divorced may be guilty due to subjective extenuating factors (lack of full knowledge and full consent of the will to that act). And what do they do to cover up their retreat? They attribute to the Pope the affirmation that the divorced/remarried person who remains in his situation without full knowledge and full consent of the will to that act is nevertheless in a state of grace. This falsification of the Pope's position to which they are forced to, tells us how desperate their situation is from a logical point of view. They implicitly admit that there are some situations in which the divorced/remarried person can receive Communion, however, all the revolt against Amoris laetitia arose from the visceral refusal of this possibility".

When the Church condemned propositions judged heretical, it was always precise in establishing what had been said along with the intention of the one who had said it. In this case, this has not been done....

The “Correctors” like to take up a position as, let's say, the new Inquisition, but they obviously do not know the procedures...". …




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:03 am

Ok, time to take out the Wos poo.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:35 pm

+JMJ+

Pope’s critics ignore Ratzinger’s rules for theological discourse
Image

Have they read the guidelines set out in Donum veritatis?

It seems that the case for the Amoris laetitia critics’ self-proclaimed “Filial Correction”of Pope Francis is weakening. Dr. Joseph Shaw, one of the signers of the Correctio filialis, recently wrote: “It is not that we’re saying that the text of Amoris cannot be bent into some kind of orthodoxy. What we are saying is that it has become clear that orthodoxy is not what Pope Francis wants us to find there.”

Shaw’s claim that Pope Francis doesn’t want orthodoxy, however, is based on subjective impressions derived from mostly non-authoritative statements of the Pope. This does not seem to be a very strong foundation for accusing the Roman Pontiff of promoting false teachings and heresies.

The supporters of the Correctio and other critics of Amoris laetitia often try to contrast what Pope Francis says in this exhortation to teachings of St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI. It is interesting, therefore, to note that many of these same critics fail to follow the guidelines for theologians published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1990 when John Paul II was pope and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, the future Benedict XVI, was prefect of the CDF. These guidelines are contained in the instruction, Donum veritatis (Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian) — a document that traditionalist opponents of Amoris laetitia, such as Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, ironically claim to hold in high esteem. …




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:54 am

+JMJ+

How a Catholic reacts to the ‘Superpope’ shirt probably says a lot
Image
The "Superpope" T-shirt being marketed by Roman artist Mauro Pallotta, with proceeds going to papal charities. (Credit: www.superpope.it.)

In January 2014, a Roman street artist put up an image of Pope Francis as a superhero on a street near the Vatican. City authorities scrubbed it off within 48 hours, but now it's back in the form of a line of T-shirts, with proceeds going to papal charities and explicit Vatican support. Some Catholics may see that as exciting, others as a worrying risk of pursuing profit and celebrity under the guise of good intentions.

Typically, the usual way we talk about the internal differences among Catholics is in terms of left v. right, liberals against conservatives. Although those terms are inexact and often misleading when applied to religious groups, there’s no denying they do capture something.

However, they’re hardly the only way of slicing the Catholic pie, and a recent ferment in Rome over a “Superpope” T-shirt neatly captures two others:
  • How nervous does a Catholic get when the Church, or one of its leaders, seems popular in the outside world? Some find such acclaim exciting, seeing it as creating a powerful missionary moment, while others fret that it risks prioritizing a desire for approval over courage in proclaiming truths people don’t always want to hear.
  • How comfortable is a given Catholic blending faith with commerce – that is, doing good while also turning a profit? Many would echo the sentiment of the late Archbishop Paul Marcinkus, onetime president of the Vatican bank, who famously said, “You can’t run the Church on Hail Marys alone.” Others, however, instinctively fear the corrupting power of money, especially when lust for it is hidden under a blanket of good intentions.
In brief, here’s the story of the Superpope. …



Image




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:11 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:54 am
+JMJ+

How a Catholic reacts to the ‘Superpope’ shirt probably says a lot
Image
The "Superpope" T-shirt being marketed by Roman artist Mauro Pallotta, with proceeds going to papal charities. (Credit: www.superpope.it.)

In January 2014, a Roman street artist put up an image of Pope Francis as a superhero on a street near the Vatican. City authorities scrubbed it off within 48 hours, but now it's back in the form of a line of T-shirts, with proceeds going to papal charities and explicit Vatican support. Some Catholics may see that as exciting, others as a worrying risk of pursuing profit and celebrity under the guise of good intentions.

Typically, the usual way we talk about the internal differences among Catholics is in terms of left v. right, liberals against conservatives. Although those terms are inexact and often misleading when applied to religious groups, there’s no denying they do capture something.1

However, they’re hardly the only way of slicing the Catholic pie, and a recent ferment in Rome over a “Superpope” T-shirt neatly captures two others:
  • How nervous does a Catholic get when the Church, or one of its leaders, seems popular in the outside world? Some find such acclaim exciting, seeing it as creating a powerful missionary moment, while others fret that it risks prioritizing a desire for approval over courage in proclaiming truths people don’t always want to hear.2
  • How comfortable is a given Catholic blending faith with commerce – that is, doing good while also turning a profit? Many would echo the sentiment of the late Archbishop Paul Marcinkus, onetime president of the Vatican bank, who famously said, “You can’t run the Church on Hail Marys alone.” Others, however, instinctively fear the corrupting power of money, especially when lust for it is hidden under a blanket of good intentions.3
In brief, here’s the story of the Superpope. …



Image
1) I deny that Crux's tendency to talk about Catholicism in political terms of "left v. right" captures anything. I think it only shows their own secular focus and muddled thinking.

2) The popularity of a Church leader is a good thing, in general. Archbishop Fulton Sheen, for example -- the first televangelist. Popes JP2 and B16, arriving by helicopter to rock-star cheers from millions of young people. There is nothing new, and certainly nothing to fear, if Pope Francis is also popular.

These holy men were never politicians who checked their messages for fear of lowering their ratings.

The "popularity" of a Church leader is measured in confessions, conversions, and vocations. St. John Paul the Great was tremendously "popular," in the sense of touching the lives of so many people.

3) What's with the "commercial" angle? Is John Allen comparing this cartoon T-shirt to selling indulgences, or something?

The story here is that a complimentary cartoon caricature Pope Francis has gone a little bit viral. The good news is that the artist selling the design is donating his profits to Papal charities, for such is the movement that Pope Francis has made on his heart.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:15 pm

Hello to the Heavens: Pope Francis Phones the Space Station
Pope Francis skipped the small talk and dove straight into the big questions. "As you're contemplating the undoubted limits of the universe, it makes us think about where we come from and where we're going," he said. "In light of your experiences in space, what are your thoughts regarding the place of man in the universe?"
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:53 am

The war against Pope Francis
But within the church, Francis has provoked a ferocious backlash from conservatives who fear that this spirit will divide the church, and could even shatter it. This summer, one prominent English priest said to me: “We can’t wait for him to die. It’s unprintable what we say in private. Whenever two priests meet, they talk about how awful Bergoglio is … he’s like Caligula: if he had a horse, he’d make him cardinal.” Of course, after 10 minutes of fluent complaint, he added: “You mustn’t print any of this, or I’ll be sacked.”
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:32 am

+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:53 am
The war against Pope Francis
But within the church, Francis has provoked a ferocious backlash from conservatives who fear that this spirit will divide the church, and could even shatter it. This summer, one prominent English priest said to me: “We can’t wait for him to die. It’s unprintable what we say in private. Whenever two priests meet, they talk about how awful Bergoglio is … he’s like Caligula: if he had a horse, he’d make him cardinal.” Of course, after 10 minutes of fluent complaint, he added: “You mustn’t print any of this, or I’ll be sacked.”
I'm nominating you for a Woscar in the category of Best Supporting Journalist.




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:40 am

UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:53 am
The war against Pope Francis
But within the church, Francis has provoked a ferocious backlash from conservatives who fear that this spirit will divide the church, and could even shatter it. This summer, one prominent English priest said to me: “We can’t wait for him to die. It’s unprintable what we say in private. Whenever two priests meet, they talk about how awful Bergoglio is … he’s like Caligula: if he had a horse, he’d make him cardinal.” Of course, after 10 minutes of fluent complaint, he added: “You mustn’t print any of this, or I’ll be sacked.”
The Guardian? The Guardian? That newspaper makes the Washington Post look respectable.
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