I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:59 am

The Pope: how the Church will change
He smiles again and replies: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good."
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Post by Del » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:34 pm

The interviewer is a non-Christian editor of a secular newspaper in Rome.
Do you feel touched by grace?
"No one can know that. Grace is not part of consciousness, it is the amount of light in our souls, not knowledge nor reason. Even you, without knowing it, could be touched by grace."

Without faith? A non-believer?
"Grace regards the soul."

I do not believe in the soul.
"You do not believe in it but you have one."

Your Holiness, you said that you have no intention of trying to convert me and I do not think you would succeed.
"We cannot know that, but I don't have any such intention."
Smart and gentle and personable.

How ironic that the Pope in Rome is giving the secular news media a chance to be relevant again! This is the office that the same papers worked so hard to subvert, back when they were relevant.
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Post by hugodrax » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:44 pm

This is a man of God.

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Post by Cleon » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:49 pm

I suppose this guy's okay, but I gotta tell ya'll...I think I liked the other Pope better. He was more to the point.
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Post by Thunktank » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:30 pm

I don't pay much attention to him unless he shows up in my radar, but he seems like a pretty good fellow when he does.

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Post by Roadmaster » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:47 pm

I love Pope Francis.
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Post by Kerdy » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:16 pm

I did like Pope Benedict more, but I'm giving Pope Francis the benefit of the doubt until he does something he shouldn't. So far he seems guarded and cautious. I don't much blame him even though I prefer a more aggressive approach. Everyone has their own style. As long as he doesn't do anything wrong and the end result is what it should be, style is personal preference.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:31 pm

He smiles again and replies: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good."
I think this bold section is like a breath of fresh air. I am sure the Pope believes that he holds ultimate truth but talking WITH people instead of talking AT people--even if it is the same position--will make a big difference in how the world looks at Catholicism.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Post by AFRS » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:58 pm

Thunktank wrote:I don't pay much attention to him unless he shows up in my radar.
Popedar?

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Post by tuttle » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:07 am

From the same interview:
“Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
What? :youcrazy:

1) Everyone has his own idea of good and evil (yep.)
2) and must choose to follow the good and fight the evil (ok.)
3) as he conceives them (uh...)
4) That would be enough to make the world a better place ( :huh: )

I get that the Pope is talking to a secular journalist. I get the argument that the Pope is being sly or clever in his answers to an unbeliever, yadda yadda yadda

But this stuff is wrong. To say, even coyly, that everyone should follow the good that they have conceived, based on their own idea of what good and evil is, is rather unnerving is it not?

No doubt jihadists have their own idea of good and evil. They choose to follow their good and fight their evil as they conceive it. Is that enough to make the world a better place?
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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:58 am

tuttle wrote:From the same interview:
“Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
What? :youcrazy:

1) Everyone has his own idea of good and evil (yep.)
2) and must choose to follow the good and fight the evil (ok.)
3) as he conceives them (uh...)
4) That would be enough to make the world a better place ( :huh: )

I get that the Pope is talking to a secular journalist. I get the argument that the Pope is being sly or clever in his answers to an unbeliever, yadda yadda yadda

But this stuff is wrong. To say, even coyly, that everyone should follow the good that they have conceived, based on their own idea of what good and evil is, is rather unnerving is it not?

No doubt jihadists have their own idea of good and evil. They choose to follow their good and fight their evil as they conceive it. Is that enough to make the world a better place?
As I understand his previous statements and Catholic doctrine, the conscience is very important, but that conscience must be formed by doctrine and dogma. It seems the Pope is being obtuse about this issue by saying that all need to follow their consciences, trusting that their search for the truth will lead them to the Church.

That's speculation, of course, and I don't know the mind of Pope Francis.

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Post by Del » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:00 am

tuttle wrote:From the same interview:
“Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
What? :youcrazy:

1) Everyone has his own idea of good and evil (yep.)
2) and must choose to follow the good and fight the evil (ok.)
3) as he conceives them (uh...)
4) That would be enough to make the world a better place ( :huh: )

I get that the Pope is talking to a secular journalist. I get the argument that the Pope is being sly or clever in his answers to an unbeliever, yadda yadda yadda

But this stuff is wrong. To say, even coyly, that everyone should follow the good that they have conceived, based on their own idea of what good and evil is, is rather unnerving is it not?

No doubt jihadists have their own idea of good and evil. They choose to follow their good and fight their evil as they conceive it. Is that enough to make the world a better place?
Francis has an unfailing confidence in people.

He believes that if every person followed the good and combatted the evil with some passion, there would be a net improvement for the world.

To be sure, there will always be some jihadists and many pro-choicers who believe that killing is a good thing to pursue -- But even these would be overcome if only the vast mass of lukewarm persons would rise up and do something charitable.

And -- if a great many people wake up and search for something good to do, most will find their way into vibrant Christian communities where we have been practicing good works for 2000 years.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Post by Eric » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:10 am

I saw what tuttle saw, but didn't post on it as I wasn't sure about Francis's point. On the face of it, Francis sounds incorrect even with respect to Catholic theology alone.

"everyone should follow the good that they have conceived" this is already the state of the World.

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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:17 am

Eric wrote:I saw what tuttle saw, but didn't post on it as I wasn't sure about Francis's point. On the face of it, Francis sounds incorrect even with respect to Catholic theology alone.

"everyone should follow the good that they have conceived" this is already the state of the World.
And that's why it seems he wasn't just talking about people doing what they want to do. Surely people are already doing what they think is "good" -- why would they choose to do what is "bad" more often than not? When he spoke about doing good, though, he said the world would improve, and that suggests to me that he's calling for a change in what people consider "good".

Consider this, for example: http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/CONSC.TXT
None the less it is important to understand the difference between conscience and personal
preference or arbitrary private intuition (cf. Vatican II, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §30,
on "wallowing in the luxury of a merely individualistic morality").Conscience is the inner core of
human beings whereby, compelled to seek the truth, they recognise the objective standards of
moral conduct, indeed the dictates of God's law, and make a practical judgment of what is to be
done here and now in applying those standards (Rom 2:15-16; Vatican II, On Religious Liberty
(1965), §§2,3; The Church in the Modern World (1965), §16).
I do think Pope Francis would do well to explain what he means by "conscience," but that doesn't seem to be his game. He's a missionary, not a street preacher.

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Post by tobacco_tenderfoot » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:18 am

Eric wrote:I saw what tuttle saw, but didn't post on it as I wasn't sure about Francis's point. On the face of it, Francis sounds incorrect even with respect to Catholic theology alone.

"everyone should follow the good that they have conceived" this is already the state of the World.
Pope Benedict XVI (then Cardinal) wrote:How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true.

Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be "tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine", seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires.

We, however, have a different goal: the Son of God, the true man. He is the measure of true humanism. An "adult" faith is not a faith that follows the trends of fashion and the latest novelty; a mature adult faith is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ. It is this friendship that opens us up to all that is good and gives us a criterion by which to distinguish the true from the false, and deceipt from truth.
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Post by tobacco_tenderfoot » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:20 am

TNLawPiper wrote: I do think Pope Francis would do well to explain what he means by "conscience," but that doesn't seem to be his game. He's a missionary, not a street preacher.
I mean one positive is that we are all trying to figure out what he means and make sure it reconciles with Church teaching. So we're all learning too.
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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:21 am

Tuttle and Eric, I wonder what you both think about the rest of the interview.

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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:22 am

tobacco_tenderfoot wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote: I do think Pope Francis would do well to explain what he means by "conscience," but that doesn't seem to be his game. He's a missionary, not a street preacher.
I mean one positive is that we are all trying to figure out what he means and make sure it reconciles with Church teaching. So we're all learning too.
Jesuits are teachers, after all, right?

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Post by Del » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:40 am

Eric wrote:I saw what tuttle saw, but didn't post on it as I wasn't sure about Francis's point. On the face of it, Francis sounds incorrect even with respect to Catholic theology alone.

"everyone should follow the good that they have conceived" this is already the state of the World.
Yes. It sounds like the relativistic chaos of Israel during the time of Judges, when everyone "did what was right in his own eyes," and many turned to worshipping Baals and even Molech.

The important thing to remember is that the Roman Pope does not pastor us through interviews with newspapers. And we should not let the secular spin on his comments tell us what he means.

Francis is talking to the secular world. And the world gets his message wrong, as they always do. But at least the world is joining the conversation -- and that is a new thing in this era. Even Obama is "hugely impressed" with Pope Francis.

I am intrigued by what the Holy Spirit is doing here. When the Cardinals gathered to prayerfully consider what the Church and the world need in the new Pope, the answer was Francis. Pope-emeritus Benedict has admitted that he understands now why the Holy Spirit inspired him to resign, having witnessed the charisms of Francis.
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Post by UncleBob » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:13 am

Eric wrote:I saw what tuttle saw, but didn't post on it as I wasn't sure about Francis's point. On the face of it, Francis sounds incorrect even with respect to Catholic theology alone.

"everyone should follow the good that they have conceived" this is already the state of the World.
I think that many Christians are more concerned that the Pope "gets the doctrine right" than how he is engaging people. He is trying to help people heal, he is actually listening to them--my God! He is actually in a conversationwith the world rather than just declaring how the world needs to conform. I can understand how that may make the fundamentalists nervous but this approach is better for both the RCC and the world.
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