I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Post by UncleBob » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:52 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
Irish-Dane wrote:
Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
Hopeful, possibly desperate, optimism?
People -- especially young people -- are still converting to Catholicism. There might be a net loss, but I'm interested to see how the trends look in ten years. My parish is still full every Sunday morning.
For me, the real question is whether the bulk of those converts are coming from people in other denominations.
It seems so. Then again, I know many Catholics are going to Protestant and Evangelical denominations. Those two notions perhaps make the numbers a little more complicated than they seem.
This is the point I made earlier. The various Christian expressions are converting each other because it is easier than engaging the world in a conversation.
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Post by Del » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:25 am

Cleon wrote: All this, of course, is from the outside looking in. Put bluntly, I don't have the respect for Pope Francis that I did for Pope Benedict. I wish I did. I'm sure Pope Francis is a nice man with good intentions. Pope Benedict, from what I know of him, was clear and gave very little room for misinterpretation while being loving at the same time. I respected that.
To be fair, we knew Benedict well before he became Pope. He was a towering intellect, a leading theologian at the Second Vatican Council, and JPII's right hand during his monumental reign. He earned our respect.

Francis is a new to all of us. He's not a Vatican insider, and he never expected to become Pope. It is going to take a while for his papacy to take a firm shape.

And it's going to take some trust, especially from those Christians who intend to love him after the initial infatuation has worn off. The Cardinals gathered under the power of the Holy Spirit, and this one was chosen to be our pastor for this time. This was not a light decision or a roll of the dice. We need to be looking for the charisms that they saw in Francis.
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Post by Irish-Dane » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:33 am

Del wrote:[This was not a light decision or a roll of the dice.
Wait, what?! There were no dice? What are you people, MAD?!?!
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Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:58 am

Del wrote:This was not a light decision or a roll of the dice.
You just made St. Matthias cry.
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Post by GiantNinja » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:05 am

Cleon wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:I wonder how many American Catholics (and non-Catholics) truly 'like' this Pope, and how many 'like' the leader they incorrectly believe him to be.

E.g., the Pope has (correctly) stated that the Church's teaching on contraception is not a first principle. This was (incorrectly) reported as 'don't worry about it'. He has (correctly) stated that abortion is a grave moral evil that must be stopped. This wasn't reported at all.
I guess this is the problem I have with the new Pope: He's letting the media run all over him. He's casting pearls before swine and they (the media) are trampling them under foot and rending the Church. This isn't good. Maybe Pope Francis is a bad communicator, or he just gives people too much credit? Maybe he's more crafty than it appears? Maybe it can be chalked up to inexperience in dealing with the media? I don't know. But I cringe every time I read about what Pope Francis says because it's being misinterpreted and I can see why. His answers are not straight forward answers. When you're dealing with people that call evil good and good evil you shouldn't give nuanced answers like that, IMO. They can't handle it and I think it does more harm to them than good. The last thing they need is to feel justified in their thinking. It's deadly.

Also, I admire Catholic moral theology, for the most part, and thank God for the work the RCC has done dealing with a whole host of hard moral issues. I fear that any positive momentum concerning Catholic and conservative Protestant relations might go backwards because of this Pope. I'd hate to see that.

All this, of course, is from the outside looking in. Put bluntly, I don't have the respect for Pope Francis that I did for Pope Benedict. I wish I did. I'm sure Pope Francis is a nice man with good intentions. Pope Benedict, from what I know of him, was clear and gave very little room for misinterpretation while being loving at the same time. I respected that.

I haven't read through the whole thread so forgive me if I'm rambling about stuff that's already been said.
Well said.

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Post by Eric » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:36 am

GiantNinja wrote:
Cleon wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:I wonder how many American Catholics (and non-Catholics) truly 'like' this Pope, and how many 'like' the leader they incorrectly believe him to be.

E.g., the Pope has (correctly) stated that the Church's teaching on contraception is not a first principle. This was (incorrectly) reported as 'don't worry about it'. He has (correctly) stated that abortion is a grave moral evil that must be stopped. This wasn't reported at all.
I guess this is the problem I have with the new Pope ... {trimmed}
Well said.
+1

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Post by tobacco_tenderfoot » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:58 am

Eric wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:
Cleon wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:I wonder how many American Catholics (and non-Catholics) truly 'like' this Pope, and how many 'like' the leader they incorrectly believe him to be.

E.g., the Pope has (correctly) stated that the Church's teaching on contraception is not a first principle. This was (incorrectly) reported as 'don't worry about it'. He has (correctly) stated that abortion is a grave moral evil that must be stopped. This wasn't reported at all.
I guess this is the problem I have with the new Pope ... {trimmed}
Well said.
+1
ditto
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Post by UncleBob » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:48 am

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Post by UncleBob » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:06 pm

Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS

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Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:32 pm

UncleBob wrote:Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
The URL for that website contains the following:
/pope-francis-right-wing-christians/
So beware the spin, which, upon reading the entire article, is quite obvious.

I wonder what else he said.

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Post by GiantNinja » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:18 pm

UncleBob wrote:Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
I simply do not understand why more folks can't take what the Pope actually said (as in the quotation above) without inserting their own ideology (as the author of the linked article does).

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Post by UncleBob » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:53 pm

GiantNinja wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
I simply do not understand why more folks can't take what the Pope actually said (as in the quotation above) without inserting their own ideology (as the author of the linked article does).
Yeah, I have no problem with what The Pope says here but I don't think he is calling anyone out. I would like to see the whole homily.
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Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:24 pm

+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
I simply do not understand why more folks can't take what the Pope actually said (as in the quotation above) without inserting their own ideology (as the author of the linked article does).
Yeah, I have no problem with what The Pope says here but I don't think he is calling anyone out. I would like to see the whole homily.
Yup. When people realize that what he says is just as applicable to Americanism, Classical Liberalism, Democratism, etc., then many Americans, whether right or left-leaning, may not be so enthralled.

This doesn't mean that we must give up on ideologies in toto. Many ideologies (morally inoffensive ones) can still be useful, medicinal correctives to societies which have ideologically drifted beyond the bounds of Right Reason. But once they are absolutized, they become dangerous and turn into idols.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Post by Del » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:50 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
I simply do not understand why more folks can't take what the Pope actually said (as in the quotation above) without inserting their own ideology (as the author of the linked article does).
Yeah, I have no problem with what The Pope says here but I don't think he is calling anyone out. I would like to see the whole homily.
Yup. When people realize that what he says is just as applicable to Americanism, Classical Liberalism, Democratism, etc., then many Americans, whether right or left-leaning, may not be so enthralled.

This doesn't mean that we must give up on ideologies in toto. Many ideologies (morally inoffensive ones) can still be useful, medicinal correctives to societies which have ideologically drifted beyond the bounds of Right Reason. But once they are absolutized, they become dangerous and turn into idols.
We have a problem among liberal American Catholics -- they have a closer relationship with the Democratic Party than they do with Jesus Christ.

So they vote for the Democrat, even when he openly supports abortion (publically funded, ta' boot!) and imposing his agenda of free contraception (paid for by Catholic employers) against our conscience.

There are good persons in the Democratic Party, and there are good and desirable things in the Party's platform. One might even believe that their healthcare plan will work well for many people. But we cannot cooperate with intrinsic evil, even to achieve some desired end.

Cooperation with grave evil is a sin. It separates us from the saving grace of Jesus.

But a great many people are willing to overlook the pain on Jesus' face, in order to follow their ideologies. This is when the ideology becomes an idol.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Post by infidel » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:19 am

tuttle wrote:
Del wrote:This was not a light decision or a roll of the dice.
You just made St. Matthias cry.
LOL :joy:
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Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:04 am

Del wrote:
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
I simply do not understand why more folks can't take what the Pope actually said (as in the quotation above) without inserting their own ideology (as the author of the linked article does).
Yeah, I have no problem with what The Pope says here but I don't think he is calling anyone out. I would like to see the whole homily.
Yup. When people realize that what he says is just as applicable to Americanism, Classical Liberalism, Democratism, etc., then many Americans, whether right or left-leaning, may not be so enthralled.

This doesn't mean that we must give up on ideologies in toto. Many ideologies (morally inoffensive ones) can still be useful, medicinal correctives to societies which have ideologically drifted beyond the bounds of Right Reason. But once they are absolutized, they become dangerous and turn into idols.
We have a problem among liberal American Catholics -- they have a closer relationship with the Democratic Party than they do with Jesus Christ.

So they vote for the Democrat, even when he openly supports abortion (publically funded, ta' boot!) and imposing his agenda of free contraception (paid for by Catholic employers) against our conscience.

There are good persons in the Democratic Party, and there are good and desirable things in the Party's platform. One might even believe that their healthcare plan will work well for many people. But we cannot cooperate with intrinsic evil, even to achieve some desired end.

Cooperation with grave evil is a sin. It separates us from the saving grace of Jesus.

But a great many people are willing to overlook the pain on Jesus' face, in order to follow their ideologies. This is when the ideology becomes an idol.
Leave it to Del to quote responses about ideology not being a problem for just one side of the aisle and then reply by blaming only one side of the aisle.

Del, you don't have to browbeat us over abortion all the time. It's ok if you just make posts that only address the topic of the threads without discussing politics, abortion, and Church history. No one will think you've had a change of heart.

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Post by hugodrax » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:18 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Del wrote:
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Uh-oh!

Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians, Says They Have Illness
“In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”
I simply do not understand why more folks can't take what the Pope actually said (as in the quotation above) without inserting their own ideology (as the author of the linked article does).
Yeah, I have no problem with what The Pope says here but I don't think he is calling anyone out. I would like to see the whole homily.
Yup. When people realize that what he says is just as applicable to Americanism, Classical Liberalism, Democratism, etc., then many Americans, whether right or left-leaning, may not be so enthralled.

This doesn't mean that we must give up on ideologies in toto. Many ideologies (morally inoffensive ones) can still be useful, medicinal correctives to societies which have ideologically drifted beyond the bounds of Right Reason. But once they are absolutized, they become dangerous and turn into idols.
We have a problem among liberal American Catholics -- they have a closer relationship with the Democratic Party than they do with Jesus Christ.

So they vote for the Democrat, even when he openly supports abortion (publically funded, ta' boot!) and imposing his agenda of free contraception (paid for by Catholic employers) against our conscience.

There are good persons in the Democratic Party, and there are good and desirable things in the Party's platform. One might even believe that their healthcare plan will work well for many people. But we cannot cooperate with intrinsic evil, even to achieve some desired end.

Cooperation with grave evil is a sin. It separates us from the saving grace of Jesus.

But a great many people are willing to overlook the pain on Jesus' face, in order to follow their ideologies. This is when the ideology becomes an idol.
Leave it to Del to quote responses about ideology not being a problem for just one side of the aisle and then reply by blaming only one side of the aisle.

Del, you don't have to browbeat us over abortion all the time. It's ok if you just make posts that only address the topic of the threads without discussing politics, abortion, and Church history. No one will think you've had a change of heart.
I disagree. I don't want to see Del succumb to a lithium-induced calmness and become less than himself. Plus he makes me feel better about myself. I mean after all, I've never had an abortion. :P

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Post by Del » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:44 pm

hugodrax wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
Leave it to Del to quote responses about ideology not being a problem for just one side of the aisle and then reply by blaming only one side of the aisle.

Del, you don't have to browbeat us over abortion all the time. It's ok if you just make posts that only address the topic of the threads without discussing politics, abortion, and Church history. No one will think you've had a change of heart.
I disagree. I don't want to see Del succumb to a lithium-induced calmness and become less than himself. Plus he makes me feel better about myself. I mean after all, I've never had an abortion. :P
Me neither. However, I have given an old car to a young stranger I met while praying on the sidewalk. She needed a car so she could keep her job rather than seek an abortion. I was praying there because the abortion clinic is still there.

Oy. Pope Francis is talking about a general problem in the world-wide Church. I tried to put a face on the local problem, as it occurs in America.

Rather than fuss about me, it would be fair to bring forth examples of right-wing Catholics who put their ideology ahead of their faith. (If you can find a group of these large enough to notice. They used to exist, and they may rise again.)


Slightly more than half of voters who self-identify as "Catholic" voted for Obama. There are fundamental reasons why Catholics should not have voted for that man. However, they have put their ideology before their faith -- this is the problem, out in the daylight.

If those Catholics who support the progressive agenda would assert their faith instead of their ideology, then the Democratic Party would become a pro-life party again.

Meanwhile, ideological blindness makes us overlook the deaths of a dozen women and a million children each year, directly, by the abortion industry. We even voted for the guy who is owned by the abortion industry.
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Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:46 pm

I love you, Del, but we get it already.

An example of right-wing Catholics who put ideology in front of their faith of Christ: those who always and everywhere decry social welfare, workers' rights, and environmentalism in favor of supporting corporate welfare. They're a loose amalgam, but they seem to believe that any concessions on these issues at any point will doom us to death by socialism instead of suggesting the right way forward by showing a compromise.

I miss your days of wearing skirts while cavorting with strange, attractive women.

:wink:

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Post by UncleBob » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:53 pm

Dels will be Dels and there is nothing wrong with that. I will admit that I, perhaps, don't read all his posts as closely as I once did but he is (and should be) free to express himself on a free forum. Last time I checked we still allow freedom of speech (this ain't Canada ya know) and we are all free to agree or disagree with him. However, I also miss his wearing skirts and cavorting with women of dubious character.

PS: Tacos ain't always crunchy.

:taco:
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"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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