So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:28 pm

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:49 pm

+JMJ+
Then, how does he explain this!?!

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by durangopipe » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 pm

I'm torn.

I've seen the photos of the earth from space and all . . .
But I hunt in Kansas.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:00 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 pm
I'm torn.

I've seen the photos of the earth from space and all . . .
But I hunt in Kansas.
A small portion of the Earth has to be flat, so it doesn't roll off the Euclidian Plane of Space-Time Continuum.

Yep. The Great Plains are the bottom of the Earth.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:13 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:00 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 pm
I'm torn.

I've seen the photos of the earth from space and all . . .
But I hunt in Kansas.
A small portion of the Earth has to be flat, so it doesn't roll off the Euclidian Plane of Space-Time Continuum.

Yep. The Great Plains are the bottom of the Earth.
The Great Plains are the bottom and Omaha is the....
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by durangopipe » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:08 pm

Sir Moose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:13 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:00 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 pm
I'm torn.

I've seen the photos of the earth from space and all . . .
But I hunt in Kansas.
A small portion of the Earth has to be flat, so it doesn't roll off the Euclidian Plane of Space-Time Continuum.

Yep. The Great Plains are the bottom of the Earth.
The Great Plains are the bottom and Omaha is the....
I thought The Great Sphincter was in Egypt?
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

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Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

Roderick Haig-Brown

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:34 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:08 pm
Sir Moose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:13 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:00 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 pm
I'm torn.

I've seen the photos of the earth from space and all . . .
But I hunt in Kansas.
A small portion of the Earth has to be flat, so it doesn't roll off the Euclidian Plane of Space-Time Continuum.

Yep. The Great Plains are the bottom of the Earth.
The Great Plains are the bottom and Omaha is the....
I thought The Great Sphincter was in Egypt?
I metaphorically, literally LOLed. (Or would that be LedOL?)
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:25 am

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by OldWorldSwine » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:41 am

A_Morley wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:05 am
I will not acknowledge the existence or legitimacy of anything not mentioned in the King James Bible, the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, the Complete Works of Charles Dickens, or the Complete Works of William Shakespeare.

Fortunately, Shakespeare alone is sufficient to convince me that the world is spherical.

Just a few examples:

For wheresoe'er thou art in this world's globe,
I'll have an Iris that shall find thee out.


Henry VI, Pt 2
act 3; sc 2

O insupportable! O heavy hour!
Methinks it should be now a huge eclipse
Of sun and moon, and that the affrighted globe
Should yawn at alteration.


Othello
act 5; sc 2

No longer from head to foot than from hip to hip:
she is spherical, like a globe; I could find out
countries in her.


Comedy of Errors
act 3; sc 2

And there you have it. The world's a globe and, thus, not flat.
He even named his theater after the Globe. So, there you are.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by OldWorldSwine » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:48 am

Not having read the article - because who even DOES that? - I assume it is just a new way for dimwitted neckbeards to irritate people.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Jester » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:35 am

I am fairly new here so this is my first time seeing this thread.
First off to equate young-earth creationists with flat-earthers is lazy and ignorant. Second I have yet to see a bible verse or a biblical explanation as to why people who aren't Christians claim that Christians believe in a flat earth. (stated this way because I have yet to meet a Christian who does think the earth is flat, only non-Christians trying to say that's what we believe.)
Last and certainly not least. This brave soul before you will set-out on a life threatening expedition with 24/7 live stream footage to find the edge of the earth. Millions of people, articles and dollars have been spent discussing this subject and now it's time for flat-earthers to GO-Fund-Me millions of dollars to find the edge of the beast itself. I will take a leave of work and a large sum of money (somebody has to do it) to assemble a team of experienced edge finders to end this dispute on live interwebs/tubes once and for all. The only way I preform this task is if I am funded enough to never work another day in my life (COME ON, I COULD FALL OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH!!).
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm

Am I detecting pride and worldliness?

Alright. The Flat Earthers are right. The Earth is flat. But they're not right on every scale. It's flat on a local scale. You know this too.
A Manifold in topology is a space that is Euclidean on a local level ie flat. So there exists a local scale (ours in fact) where the geometry of space (eg surface) is Euclidean. It does not have to be Euclidean on a large scale, as for example a planetary scale. You can test this in your neighbourhood. Just define three points and measure the angles between lines joining the three points and you too will see that they add to 180 degrees. It's flat. You can even choose a larger "local scale" and it is still true. But it's also true that angles of a triangle on a much larger scale (for example, lines of longitude joining the north pole with the equator) will always add up to more than 180 degrees.
Scale matters with Topological Spaces.

BTW this is the correct answer.

I now return you to your pride and worldliness. :lol:
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm

Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm
Am I detecting pride and worldliness?

Alright. The Flat Earthers are right. The Earth is flat. But they're not right on every scale. It's flat on a local scale. You know this too.
A Manifold in topology is a space that is Euclidean on a local level ie flat. So there exists a local scale (ours in fact) where the geometry of space (eg surface) is Euclidean. It does not have to be Euclidean on a large scale, as for example a planetary scale. You can test this in your neighbourhood. Just define three points and measure the angles between lines joining the three points and you too will see that they add to 180 degrees. It's flat. You can even choose a larger "local scale" and it is still true. But it's also true that angles of a triangle on a much larger scale (for example, lines of longitude joining the north pole with the equator) will always add up to more than 180 degrees.
Scale matters with Topological Spaces.

BTW this is the correct answer.

I now return you to your pride and worldliness. :lol:
Right. Because you're neither arrogant nor wordly. I hope your oo-oo's freeze, Uncle Rusty.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:14 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm
Am I detecting pride and worldliness?

Alright. The Flat Earthers are right. The Earth is flat. But they're not right on every scale. It's flat on a local scale. You know this too.
A Manifold in topology is a space that is Euclidean on a local level ie flat. So there exists a local scale (ours in fact) where the geometry of space (eg surface) is Euclidean. It does not have to be Euclidean on a large scale, as for example a planetary scale. You can test this in your neighbourhood. Just define three points and measure the angles between lines joining the three points and you too will see that they add to 180 degrees. It's flat. You can even choose a larger "local scale" and it is still true. But it's also true that angles of a triangle on a much larger scale (for example, lines of longitude joining the north pole with the equator) will always add up to more than 180 degrees.
Scale matters with Topological Spaces.

BTW this is the correct answer.

I now return you to your pride and worldliness. :lol:
Right. Because you're neither arrogant nor wordly. I hope your oo-oo's freeze, Uncle Rusty.
It's not about me. It's about Manifolds. Now you know the answer. And it's something that you always knew ... if you think about it. And it's correct. The ancients really did think the world is flat. And they were right on every local scale. That covers the entire world. There is no local neighbourhood anywhere on the planet where that isn't the case. The world is flat on our and their scales.
Last edited by Rusty on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:17 pm

Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm
Am I detecting pride and worldliness?

Alright. The Flat Earthers are right. The Earth is flat. But they're not right on every scale. It's flat on a local scale. You know this too.
A Manifold in topology is a space that is Euclidean on a local level ie flat. So there exists a local scale (ours in fact) where the geometry of space (eg surface) is Euclidean. It does not have to be Euclidean on a large scale, as for example a planetary scale. You can test this in your neighbourhood. Just define three points and measure the angles between lines joining the three points and you too will see that they add to 180 degrees. It's flat. You can even choose a larger "local scale" and it is still true. But it's also true that angles of a triangle on a much larger scale (for example, lines of longitude joining the north pole with the equator) will always add up to more than 180 degrees.
Scale matters with Topological Spaces.

BTW this is the correct answer.

I now return you to your pride and worldliness. :lol:
Right. Because you're neither arrogant nor wordly. I hope your oo-oo's freeze, Uncle Rusty.
It's not about me. It's about Manifolds. Now you know the answer. And it's something that you always knew ... if you think about it. And it's correct.
Of course, but it has nothing to do with whether I hope your oo-oos freeze.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by durangopipe » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:16 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:17 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm
Am I detecting pride and worldliness?

Alright. The Flat Earthers are right. The Earth is flat. But they're not right on every scale. It's flat on a local scale. You know this too.
A Manifold in topology is a space that is Euclidean on a local level ie flat. So there exists a local scale (ours in fact) where the geometry of space (eg surface) is Euclidean. It does not have to be Euclidean on a large scale, as for example a planetary scale. You can test this in your neighbourhood. Just define three points and measure the angles between lines joining the three points and you too will see that they add to 180 degrees. It's flat. You can even choose a larger "local scale" and it is still true. But it's also true that angles of a triangle on a much larger scale (for example, lines of longitude joining the north pole with the equator) will always add up to more than 180 degrees.
Scale matters with Topological Spaces.

BTW this is the correct answer.

I now return you to your pride and worldliness. :lol:
Right. Because you're neither arrogant nor wordly. I hope your oo-oo's freeze, Uncle Rusty.
It's not about me. It's about Manifolds. Now you know the answer. And it's something that you always knew ... if you think about it. And it's correct.
Of course, but it has nothing to do with whether I hope your oo-oos freeze.
Yeah, well, no, Rusty.

Depending on the "order" of the work as it's known in land surveying, or the level of accuracy required for whatever purpose the survey is being conducted, the curvature of the earth is assumed and corrected for even at the "local scale."

From your link:

"Although a manifold locally resembles Euclidean space, meaning that every point has a neighborhood homeomorphic to an open subset of Euclidean space, globally it may not: manifolds in general are not homeomorphic to Euclidean space. For example, the surface of the sphere is not homeomorphic to a Euclidean space, because (among other properties) it has the global topological property of compactness that Euclidean space lacks, but in a region it can be charted by means of map projections of the region into the Euclidean plane (in the context of manifolds they are called charts). When a region appears in two neighbouring charts, the two representations do not coincide exactly and a transformation is needed to pass from one to the other, called a transition map."

In other words, while a local space on a sphere may be represented by a flat map projection, in order for maps to be useful for the most demanding purposes multiple flat map representations/projections of local spaces on a sphere must incorporate correction for curvature.

The world ain't flat, even locally.

You can thaw your oo-oos with a hair dryer, should you so choose, but please don't do it in a public locker room.
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

J.R.R. Tolkien



Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

Roderick Haig-Brown

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:38 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:16 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:17 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm
Am I detecting pride and worldliness?

Alright. The Flat Earthers are right. The Earth is flat. But they're not right on every scale. It's flat on a local scale. You know this too.
A Manifold in topology is a space that is Euclidean on a local level ie flat. So there exists a local scale (ours in fact) where the geometry of space (eg surface) is Euclidean. It does not have to be Euclidean on a large scale, as for example a planetary scale. You can test this in your neighbourhood. Just define three points and measure the angles between lines joining the three points and you too will see that they add to 180 degrees. It's flat. You can even choose a larger "local scale" and it is still true. But it's also true that angles of a triangle on a much larger scale (for example, lines of longitude joining the north pole with the equator) will always add up to more than 180 degrees.
Scale matters with Topological Spaces.

BTW this is the correct answer.

I now return you to your pride and worldliness. :lol:
Right. Because you're neither arrogant nor wordly. I hope your oo-oo's freeze, Uncle Rusty.
It's not about me. It's about Manifolds. Now you know the answer. And it's something that you always knew ... if you think about it. And it's correct.
Of course, but it has nothing to do with whether I hope your oo-oos freeze.
Yeah, well, no, Rusty.

Depending on the "order" of the work as it's known in land surveying, or the level of accuracy required for whatever purpose the survey is being conducted, the curvature of the earth is assumed and corrected for even at the "local scale."

From your link:

"Although a manifold locally resembles Euclidean space, meaning that every point has a neighborhood homeomorphic to an open subset of Euclidean space, globally it may not: manifolds in general are not homeomorphic to Euclidean space. For example, the surface of the sphere is not homeomorphic to a Euclidean space, because (among other properties) it has the global topological property of compactness that Euclidean space lacks, but in a region it can be charted by means of map projections of the region into the Euclidean plane (in the context of manifolds they are called charts). When a region appears in two neighbouring charts, the two representations do not coincide exactly and a transformation is needed to pass from one to the other, called a transition map."

In other words, while a local space on a sphere may be represented by a flat map projection, in order for maps to be useful for the most demanding purposes multiple flat map representations/projections of local spaces on a sphere must incorporate correction for curvature.

The world ain't flat, even locally.

You can thaw your oo-oos with a hair dryer, should you so choose, but please don't do it in a public locker room.
Read it again. It only has to resemble a euclidean space. And it does that quite adequately.

Here's another reference that actually uses this example to illustrate a manifold.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Manifold.html
Last edited by Rusty on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by durangopipe » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:47 pm

I'll let the comment stand. The earth is not flat, even locally. In this case the manifold is a heuristic, not a physical reality.

From Mathworld:

"Possibly what's confusing you is that the statement refers to the surface of the sphere, not the space the sphere is sitting in. If we ignore relativistic effects (and the fact that the Earth isn't quite a sphere), yes the sphere is in a Euclidean 3-dimensional space. In that space all the convenient Euclidean things apply. But the statement didn't refer to the sphere, or the space it's sitting in: it referred to the surface of the sphere. The surface of the sphere is a 2-dimensional space, not a 3-dimensional one, and points on it only need 2 coordinates (latitude and longitude, for example).

To help see the difference, consider a straight line between London and New York. In the 3-dimensional Euclidean space in which the Earth is embedded, that straight line goes through the Earth. But if we're only considering the surface of the Earth, that line doesn't exist. The straight line (shortest distance between the two points) on the surface lies along the great circle. Now consider drawing the lines from both New York and London to, say, Capetown, to make a triangle. Yes, if you draw the lines through the Earth you will get a nice Euclidean triangle with angles that add up to 180 degrees. But those lines don't exist in the space you are considering: you can only draw lines on the surface of the Earth. The angles of the triangle drawn on the surface of the Earth add up to more than 180 degrees, so the space must be non-Euclidean.

Edit: The bit after the "but" just seems to be saying that for most purposes you can treat a smallish bit of the Earth as if it were flat. You probably don't need to worry about the curvature of the Earth when looking at a street-map of your town."
Last edited by durangopipe on Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:07 pm

Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:38 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:16 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:17 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:01 pm
Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm
Am I detecting pride and worldliness?

Alright. The Flat Earthers are right. The Earth is flat. But they're not right on every scale. It's flat on a local scale. You know this too.
A Manifold in topology is a space that is Euclidean on a local level ie flat. So there exists a local scale (ours in fact) where the geometry of space (eg surface) is Euclidean. It does not have to be Euclidean on a large scale, as for example a planetary scale. You can test this in your neighbourhood. Just define three points and measure the angles between lines joining the three points and you too will see that they add to 180 degrees. It's flat. You can even choose a larger "local scale" and it is still true. But it's also true that angles of a triangle on a much larger scale (for example, lines of longitude joining the north pole with the equator) will always add up to more than 180 degrees.
Scale matters with Topological Spaces.

BTW this is the correct answer.

I now return you to your pride and worldliness. :lol:
Right. Because you're neither arrogant nor wordly. I hope your oo-oo's freeze, Uncle Rusty.
It's not about me. It's about Manifolds. Now you know the answer. And it's something that you always knew ... if you think about it. And it's correct.
Of course, but it has nothing to do with whether I hope your oo-oos freeze.
Yeah, well, no, Rusty.

Depending on the "order" of the work as it's known in land surveying, or the level of accuracy required for whatever purpose the survey is being conducted, the curvature of the earth is assumed and corrected for even at the "local scale."

From your link:

"Although a manifold locally resembles Euclidean space, meaning that every point has a neighborhood homeomorphic to an open subset of Euclidean space, globally it may not: manifolds in general are not homeomorphic to Euclidean space. For example, the surface of the sphere is not homeomorphic to a Euclidean space, because (among other properties) it has the global topological property of compactness that Euclidean space lacks, but in a region it can be charted by means of map projections of the region into the Euclidean plane (in the context of manifolds they are called charts). When a region appears in two neighbouring charts, the two representations do not coincide exactly and a transformation is needed to pass from one to the other, called a transition map."

In other words, while a local space on a sphere may be represented by a flat map projection, in order for maps to be useful for the most demanding purposes multiple flat map representations/projections of local spaces on a sphere must incorporate correction for curvature.

The world ain't flat, even locally.

You can thaw your oo-oos with a hair dryer, should you so choose, but please don't do it in a public locker room.
Read it again. It only has to resemble a euclidean space. And it does that quite adequately.

Here's another reference that actually uses this example to illustrate a manifold.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Manifold.html
Nomine exhaustim, manifoldi, ooh-oohs frigidariiae.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Goose55
Del's Love Child
Del's Love Child
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Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:15 pm

The earth is not flat, and it's also infinitesimally small compared to the now known universe. Lots of real estate out there. The Real Estate agent that told you "they don't make it any more" was lying.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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