So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:29 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:47 pm
I'll let the comment stand. The earth is not flat, even locally. In this case the manifold is a heuristic, not a physical reality.

From Mathworld:

"Possibly what's confusing you is that the statement refers to the surface of the sphere, not the space the sphere is sitting in. If we ignore relativistic effects (and the fact that the Earth isn't quite a sphere), yes the sphere is in a Euclidean 3-dimensional space. In that space all the convenient Euclidean things apply. But the statement didn't refer to the sphere, or the space it's sitting in: it referred to the surface of the sphere. The surface of the sphere is a 2-dimensional space, not a 3-dimensional one, and points on it only need 2 coordinates (latitude and longitude, for example).

To help see the difference, consider a straight line between London and New York. In the 3-dimensional Euclidean space in which the Earth is embedded, that straight line goes through the Earth. But if we're only considering the surface of the Earth, that line doesn't exist. The straight line (shortest distance between the two points) on the surface lies along the great circle. Now consider drawing the lines from both New York and London to, say, Capetown, to make a triangle. Yes, if you draw the lines through the Earth you will get a nice Euclidean triangle with angles that add up to 180 degrees. But those lines don't exist in the space you are considering: you can only draw lines on the surface of the Earth. The angles of the triangle drawn on the surface of the Earth add up to more than 180 degrees, so the space must be non-Euclidean.

Edit: The bit after the "but" just seems to be saying that for most purposes you can treat a smallish bit of the Earth as if it were flat. You probably don't need to worry about the curvature of the Earth when looking at a street-map of your town."
I think we're agreeing at this point and esp. with that quote. Nobody here is saying that the planet isn't roughly spherical without any reference to scale. And there are certainly tools and techniques to detect the real shape of the planet. That has been true for a very long time. But none of us use spherical trigonometry to calculate distances, for example. We behave as if the earth is flat. The question is why is there a round/flat Earth problem and specifically why does it seem flat to us & our day to day behaviour assumes it is flat. And of course this was the observation of ancient people too. And I'm delighted to see the Wolfram article actually using our example to explain manifolds and esp to mention the flat/round Earth problem. This is not just a heuristic and this explanation actually played a roll in the development of manifolds.
Wolfram wrote:To illustrate this idea, consider the ancient belief that the Earth was flat as contrasted with the modern evidence that it is round. The discrepancy arises essentially from the fact that on the small scales that we see, the Earth does indeed look flat. In general, any object that is nearly "flat" on small scales is a manifold, and so manifolds constitute a generalization of objects we could live on in which we would encounter the round/flat Earth problem, as first codified by Poincaré.
I think the explanation is interesting and that is why I shared it (along with a bit of humour). And I hope that my original explanation has sufficient fidelity to the authoritative source so that it is useful.
Last edited by Rusty on Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:40 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:15 pm
The earth is not flat, and it's also infinitesimally small compared to the now known universe. Lots of real estate out there. The Real Estate agent that told you "they don't make it any more" was lying.
They make more land on earth? Because, if they don't, he wasn't lying. You wouldn't survive anywhere else.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Sir Moose » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:35 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:40 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:15 pm
The earth is not flat, and it's also infinitesimally small compared to the now known universe. Lots of real estate out there. The Real Estate agent that told you "they don't make it any more" was lying.
They make more land on earth? Because, if they don't, he wasn't lying. You wouldn't survive anywhere else.
It can certainly be argued that they're making more land.

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by hugodrax » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:04 am

Sir Moose wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:35 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:40 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:15 pm
The earth is not flat, and it's also infinitesimally small compared to the now known universe. Lots of real estate out there. The Real Estate agent that told you "they don't make it any more" was lying.
They make more land on earth? Because, if they don't, he wasn't lying. You wouldn't survive anywhere else.
It can certainly be argued that they're making more land.

New Island Appears Off U.S. Coast

Amazing pictures reveal new island in Pacific

Earthquake Births New Island off Pakistan
Hmm, hadn't thought of that. Volcanic activity does it, too.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Jester » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by durangopipe » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:18 am

Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am
I can't wait for the results :D
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 842fc0dc0e
Image
What could possibly go wrong?

He has the power of anti-science to guide him:

"I don’t believe in science," Hughes said, according to the AP. "I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust. But that’s not science, that’s just a formula. There’s no difference between science and science fiction."
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:05 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:18 am
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am
I can't wait for the results :D
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 842fc0dc0e
Image
What could possibly go wrong?

He has the power of anti-science to guide him:

"I don’t believe in science," Hughes said, according to the AP. "I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust. But that’s not science, that’s just a formula. There’s no difference between science and science fiction."
Are you policing science discussion again? LOL!

The world is a better and more interesting place when there is a variety of beliefs.

Here's one of the great experiments in the early 19th C....
Gauss’s Great Triangle and the Shape of Space

I think it's very cool that locally our space is Euclidean, but it's on a spheroid that is not a Euclidean space, but the spheroid exists in a much larger space, that on the large scale, is Euclidean. This follows our historic development in understanding spaces.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by durangopipe » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:21 pm

Rusty wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:05 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:18 am
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am
I can't wait for the results :D
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 842fc0dc0e
Image
What could possibly go wrong?

He has the power of anti-science to guide him:

"I don’t believe in science," Hughes said, according to the AP. "I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust. But that’s not science, that’s just a formula. There’s no difference between science and science fiction."
Are you policing science discussion again? LOL!

The world is a better and more interesting place when there is a variety of beliefs.

Here's one of the great experiments in the early 19th C....
Gauss’s Great Triangle and the Shape of Space

I think it's very cool that locally our space is Euclidean but it's on a spheroid that is not a Euclidean space but the spheroid exists in a much larger space, that on the large scale, is Euclidean.
Mostly, I was just trying to be funny.
I just hope we aren't reading about this guy's unfortunate death after a disaster on Saturday.

A martyr for the flat earth cause?
Another salvo in the war against the tyranny of Freemasonry?

I read a Flat Earth website FAQ for the first time after reading about this guy.
Holy conspiracy theory, Batman!
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Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:12 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:05 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:18 am
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am
I can't wait for the results :D
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 842fc0dc0e
Image
What could possibly go wrong?

He has the power of anti-science to guide him:

"I don’t believe in science," Hughes said, according to the AP. "I know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust. But that’s not science, that’s just a formula. There’s no difference between science and science fiction."
Are you policing science discussion again? LOL!

The world is a better and more interesting place when there is a variety of beliefs.

Here's one of the great experiments in the early 19th C....
Gauss’s Great Triangle and the Shape of Space

I think it's very cool that locally our space is Euclidean but it's on a spheroid that is not a Euclidean space but the spheroid exists in a much larger space, that on the large scale, is Euclidean.
Mostly, I was just trying to be funny.
I just hope we aren't reading about this guy's unfortunate death after a disaster on Saturday.

A martyr for the flat earth cause?
Another salvo in the war against the tyranny of Freemasonry?

I read a Flat Earth website FAQ for the first time after reading about this guy.
Holy conspiracy theory, Batman!
1800' ? There are structures taller than that. They lack ambition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W8iAthiaSg

BTW there is telltale evidence, even in that movie clip, that the Earth is round and in order to get into orbit the Flat Earthers will have to surrender. Entering low Earth orbit is functionally equivalent to surrender.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by elimtaft » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:00 pm

Image

Hmm, guess I gotta remember how to link images...
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:16 pm

elimtaft wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:00 pm
Image

Hmm, guess I gotta remember how to link images...
Your linking tags are perfect but the URL of the jpg isn't the same as the instagram pg. Bit tricky with Instagram pics.

Good point. And of course practically speaking it is flat locally. See Manifold, Euclid, Gauss, Poincare
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by elimtaft » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:08 am

Rusty wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:16 pm
elimtaft wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:00 pm
Image

Hmm, guess I gotta remember how to link images...
Your linking tags are perfect but the URL of the jpg isn't the same as the instagram pg. Bit tricky with Instagram pics.

Good point. And of course practically speaking it is flat locally. See Manifold, Euclid, Gauss, Poincare
Haha actually I think (hope) the image is supposed to be sarcastic. I'm not really a flat earther...
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by elimtaft » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:08 am

Rusty wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:16 pm
elimtaft wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:00 pm
Image

Hmm, guess I gotta remember how to link images...
Your linking tags are perfect but the URL of the jpg isn't the same as the instagram pg. Bit tricky with Instagram pics.

Good point. And of course practically speaking it is flat locally. See Manifold, Euclid, Gauss, Poincare
Haha actually I think (hope) the image is supposed to be sarcastic. I'm not really a flat earther...
A Word Is Worth A Thousand Pictures

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Cleon » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:38 am

You know, Rusty is right. For most practical purposes you can consider the earth flat and it literally won't amount to a hill of beans.

Keep it local. Keep it REAL.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by wosbald » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 am

+JMJ+
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:21 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am
I can't wait for the results :D
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 842fc0dc0e
Image
A martyr for the flat earth cause?
Another salvo in the war against the tyranny of Freemasonry?

… Hughes only recently converted to flat-Eartherism, after struggling for months to raise funds for his follow-up flight over the Mojave.

It was originally scheduled for early 2016 in a Kickstarter campaign — “From Garage to Outer Space!” — that mentioned nothing about Illuminati astronauts, and was themed after a NASCAR event.

[…]

The Kickstarter raised $310 of its $150,000 goal.

[…]

A year later, he called into a flat-Earth community Web show to announce that he had become a recent convert.

“We were kind of looking for new sponsors for this. And I’m a believer in the flat Earth,” Hughes said. “I researched it for several months.”

[…]

The host talked of “Elon Musk’s fake reality,” and Hughes talked of “anti-Christ, Illuminati stuff.” After half an hour of this, the host told his 300-some listeners to back Hughes’s exploration of space. …




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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by durangopipe » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:21 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 am
+JMJ+
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:21 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am
I can't wait for the results :D
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 842fc0dc0e
Image
A martyr for the flat earth cause?
Another salvo in the war against the tyranny of Freemasonry?

… Hughes only recently converted to flat-Eartherism, after struggling for months to raise funds for his follow-up flight over the Mojave.

It was originally scheduled for early 2016 in a Kickstarter campaign — “From Garage to Outer Space!” — that mentioned nothing about Illuminati astronauts, and was themed after a NASCAR event.

[…]

The Kickstarter raised $310 of its $150,000 goal.

[…]

A year later, he called into a flat-Earth community Web show to announce that he had become a recent convert.

“We were kind of looking for new sponsors for this. And I’m a believer in the flat Earth,” Hughes said. “I researched it for several months.”

[…]

The host talked of “Elon Musk’s fake reality,” and Hughes talked of “anti-Christ, Illuminati stuff.” After half an hour of this, the host told his 300-some listeners to back Hughes’s exploration of space. …
Apparently it was more effective than a cardboard sign at a Walmart exit.
Will Geraldo be covering the launch?
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

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Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

Roderick Haig-Brown

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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Jocose » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:05 am

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:21 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:13 am
+JMJ+
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:21 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 am
I can't wait for the results :D
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 842fc0dc0e
Image
A martyr for the flat earth cause?
Another salvo in the war against the tyranny of Freemasonry?

… Hughes only recently converted to flat-Eartherism, after struggling for months to raise funds for his follow-up flight over the Mojave.

It was originally scheduled for early 2016 in a Kickstarter campaign — “From Garage to Outer Space!” — that mentioned nothing about Illuminati astronauts, and was themed after a NASCAR event.

[…]

The Kickstarter raised $310 of its $150,000 goal.

[…]

A year later, he called into a flat-Earth community Web show to announce that he had become a recent convert.

“We were kind of looking for new sponsors for this. And I’m a believer in the flat Earth,” Hughes said. “I researched it for several months.”

[…]

The host talked of “Elon Musk’s fake reality,” and Hughes talked of “anti-Christ, Illuminati stuff.” After half an hour of this, the host told his 300-some listeners to back Hughes’s exploration of space. …
Apparently it was more effective than a cardboard sign at a Walmart exit.
Will Geraldo be covering the launch?
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Rusty » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:29 am

Neil deGrasse Tyson appears to be taking shots at FlatEarthers...

"A Lunar Eclipse flat-Earthers have never seen"

Image

This is not about manifolds. LOL!
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by Jester » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:52 pm

Big government ruins everything!!
http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/r ... overnment/
But don't worry: he's got a new plan to launch from private property and support from people all around the globe.
Of course the government would find a way to make more speculation of a conspiracy theory.
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Re: So... Do we have any Flat Earthers here?

Post by JesusClaus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:57 pm

If the world is round then why doesn't the raptor poo fall off?

It's just logic.

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