North Korea

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Re: North Korea

Post by Rusty » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:44 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:14 pm
Onyx wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:31 pm
One freakin day someone is gonna come along and suggest that we can love our neighbours as ourselves... we're going to believe that the Koreans, the Japanese, the Chinese are our brothers and sisters. I have no freakin idea where this leadership will come from.
It is loving to the people of all nations that a rogue regime is prevented from developing nuclear weapons.

If Obama cared about the world more than his own reputation and legacy, this might have been resolved before it got this far.
I think the keys to the pressure are still in Chinese hands, rather than UN or American hands. China could bring N. Korea's economy to a stand still. They are the lifeline for N. Korea.
The Bush admin. failed too and they were the first to be told of a nuclear bomb test. This is not an easy problem for America to solve. And there really isn't an American military solution because of the players. There were 6-way diplomatic talks over the nuclear development. Essentially they failed because America was not willing to do what was done with Cuba ie hands off, a measure of security. Do that with stringent conditions and China and Russia will support you. N. Korea doesn't need nukes anymore. China & Russia do not want a Nuclear-armed N. Korea but they aren't seen as the threat by N. Korea. And they don't want America on their border. China still maintains the security is up to America to grant or withhold.
Last edited by Rusty on Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Skip » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:55 pm

Last I checked, Cuba didn't share a land border with an American ally that they (Cuba) had stated they were determined conquer.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Rusty » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:08 pm

Skip wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:55 pm
Last I checked, Cuba didn't share a land border with an American ally that they (Cuba) had stated they were determined conquer.
Cuba was active in Africa and the Americas. That still went on.
One of the conditions would have to be a peace treaty between N. Korea and S. Korea. That all parties support. Both continue to exist. No more invasion & armistice. Their security from America is provided by the same kind of agreement as was provided for Cuba back in 1962. Do that and both the Russians and Chinese will support it and N. Korea no longer has any need for the security of nuclear arms.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Onyx » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:09 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:26 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:04 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:56 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:09 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:19 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:42 pm
infidel wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:36 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:19 pm
infidel wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:33 am


Their population is aging and shrinking, their economy is slowing down, they're in deeper debt than we are. I'm not so sure.
China does not share your view of Japan. One of China's complaints about NK developing nuclear weapons is that it may start an arms race in the region. China has been fairly clear; they do not want to face a nuclear-armed Japan. Two Japanese destroyers have joined the American carrier group. Guess who has a treaty obligation to cooperate with and provide security for Japan?
I have to ask; are you of Japanese descent?
Well there's a difference between building/buying nukes and building a world-class mighty military.

And no I have no Japanese DNA
If you look at the state of Germany in the 1920's you might never think that they could have a world-class military. Nazi Germany, likewise thought America was soft and somewhat effete - nothing to worry about. Your armed forces were small at the time. They stupidly declared war on America, 11 days after Pearl Harbour, in part because of this belief. I think these sweeping generalizations are usually too hasty and usually wrong. There are nations that have been down and never really recovered to significant status ever again eg Italy, Spain and there are likely others. But some we should not discount. Among them are the Russians and the Japanese. Both have recovered from amazing setbacks and seem to have a measure of resilience. Are you of Chinese descent?
Rusty, the Japanese Health Minister had to remind women that they could have babies. An unbelievable percentage of the population thinks that dating and sex are a waste of time. Their birth rate is pathetically low. Add to that the idea of the "grass eating man" and you'll see his point.

This doesn't mean I'd discount the Japanese, just say that right now they don't have the manpower. I'd never let them rearm, either, or steam out of homewaters, because they're unrepentant xenophobic bastards. Think the Cricketers from Hitchiker's Guide.

And no, I don't have any Japanese ancestry. But my children do. And I spend a lot of time within the culture, both in the US and in Japan, just in case you think I'm spitballing.

Also, the standard of dentistry is appalling. Certain stereotypes are quite true.
I'm happy that you wouldn't discount them. That's good enough. I'm good with that. There was a tone to infidel's remarks that I didn't like. A suggestion that maybe they're not worth the effort. I suspect Onyx got the same message.
If you want to suggest improvements to build Japanese culture 2.0 that's fine with me. You're closer to it than I am.
You might include all of western civilization in your improvement suggestions because virtually all have lower than replacement fertility rates incl. the US, so most have aging societies but for immigration. I think the Health Ministers of most western nations might also remind the women in their country that they can also have babies. Japan doesn't have the lowest fertility rate either and they have five times the population of N. Korea and 175% of the Japanese population in 1940. By active military personnel their armed forces are larger than those in France, Germany, Israel, etc. Plus like the others they have the US to help, by treaty.
Yes, but we are allowing the home defence fleet to steam out of home waters. They're flying the rising sun. I don't approve. I'd never remove a single base.

I'd let them die out. They're dangerous. I wouldn't trust them to stick by their treaty obligations, either. Then again, I wouldn't have let German reunification occur, either. Maybe I'm a reactionary, after all.
Dangerous. Now you're seeing it the way China does. They do not want to see a nuclear-armed Japan. These are not people that one characterizes as spent.
For some reason they didn't go through the national guilt and soul searching that Germany did.
I think there are at least two reasons behind that, Rusty. One is the fact that the much vaunted "face saving" really means "I can do no wrong and you are rude for questioning me". The second is the fact that we bought their medical information and tried very few people, thus legitimizing the whole affair. We should have hung the Showa Emperor from the nearest tree.

You're quite right that they're not spent yet. But they're on their way and we should encourage it.

I don't bear them hatred or ill will. Individual Japanese are wonderful. Collectively, they're the Borg. But I don't trust a culture where lying to your face is seen as great strength and obeying the highest caste in the room is seen as a source of personal honor.
On your last sentence, I think I could say something equivalent about any culture if I wanted to highlight their two worst cultural attributes and hangovers from some crappy history.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Rusty » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:12 pm

U.S. eyes sanctions, diplomacy to 'de-escalate' North Korea - Trump administration's North Korea policy is a lot similar to Obama's
The Trump administration says North Korea's pursuit of nuclear weapons is an urgent national security threat and the U.S. will exert pressure through diplomatic measures and tighter economic sanctions.

That's according to a statement issued by the State Department and defence and intelligence chiefs Wednesday after briefing senators.
The statement outlines a policy that sounds similar to that of the Obama administration.

It says President Donald Trump aims to pressure North Korea into dismantling its nuclear, ballistic missile and proliferation programs, and is engaging the international community to achieve that and persuade Kim Jong-un's government "to de-escalate and return to the path of dialogue."

The U.S. "remains open to negotiations" to achieve denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, but the statement adds, "we remain prepared to defend ourselves and our allies."
This is the way it looks outside the US (Canada). How is Trump's strategy any different than Obama's? Well, Obama, didn't send a naval carrier group.
Military key to stopping Kim's 'worst impulses'

The top U.S. military officer in the Pacific says frequent demonstrations of American military might are key to keeping North Korea in check.

Admiral Harry Harris Jr. told the House armed services committee that deploying American warships to waters around the Korean Peninsula and flying B-1 and B-52 bombers in the skies above help to "ameliorate [North Korean leader] Kim Jong-un's worst impulses."
Yeah, that's gonna work. LOL! It's true, Trump sent a battle group. How do you think N. Korea sees that action & bomber overflights?
Justification for possessing the weapons.
If Kim ever preemptively employs nukes then he and his regime are toast. That would erase the security that he values so much. For Kim possession of the nuclear weapons is the key to security and N. Korea has said this. And details aside, this deterrence is exactly the same kind of justification as every other Nation with nuclear weapons. Look at the interesting connection the N. Koreans make.

Pyongyang brings up Iraq & Libya doom as nuclear deterrence justification

This is from a Russian news org in Jan 2016 at the time Kim claimed an H-bomb test. It's a ridiculous claim, don't bother with it. Instead look at the N. Korean justification for the nuclear weapons program.
“The H-bomb test conducted by the DPRK was a measure for self-defence to thoroughly protect the sovereignty of the country and vital rights of the nation from the daily-growing nuclear threat and blackmail by the hostile forces and reliably guarantee peace on the Korean Peninsula and security of the region,” a statement published by the [DPRK] state KCNA news agency said.
...
Pyongyang called nuclear deterrence the “strongest treasured sword” in protecting peace and security. Referencing the US-led NATO interventions in Iraq in 2003 and in Libya in 2011, the North argued that the possession of nuclear weapons by those countries at the time could have averted their demise.

“The Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq and the Gaddafi regime in Libya could not escape the fate of destruction after being deprived of their foundations for nuclear development and giving up nuclear programs of their own accord, yielding to the pressure of the US and the West keen on their regime changes,” the statement postulated, adding that a “bitter lesson” should be drawn from those events.
That's pretty clear. Given the DPRK reasoning (possession = security & examples where capitulating means death) how effective can the American strategy be?
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Re: North Korea

Post by hugodrax » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:21 am

Onyx wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:09 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:26 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:04 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:56 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:09 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:19 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:42 pm
infidel wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:36 pm
Rusty wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:19 pm


China does not share your view of Japan. One of China's complaints about NK developing nuclear weapons is that it may start an arms race in the region. China has been fairly clear; they do not want to face a nuclear-armed Japan. Two Japanese destroyers have joined the American carrier group. Guess who has a treaty obligation to cooperate with and provide security for Japan?
I have to ask; are you of Japanese descent?
Well there's a difference between building/buying nukes and building a world-class mighty military.

And no I have no Japanese DNA
If you look at the state of Germany in the 1920's you might never think that they could have a world-class military. Nazi Germany, likewise thought America was soft and somewhat effete - nothing to worry about. Your armed forces were small at the time. They stupidly declared war on America, 11 days after Pearl Harbour, in part because of this belief. I think these sweeping generalizations are usually too hasty and usually wrong. There are nations that have been down and never really recovered to significant status ever again eg Italy, Spain and there are likely others. But some we should not discount. Among them are the Russians and the Japanese. Both have recovered from amazing setbacks and seem to have a measure of resilience. Are you of Chinese descent?
Rusty, the Japanese Health Minister had to remind women that they could have babies. An unbelievable percentage of the population thinks that dating and sex are a waste of time. Their birth rate is pathetically low. Add to that the idea of the "grass eating man" and you'll see his point.

This doesn't mean I'd discount the Japanese, just say that right now they don't have the manpower. I'd never let them rearm, either, or steam out of homewaters, because they're unrepentant xenophobic bastards. Think the Cricketers from Hitchiker's Guide.

And no, I don't have any Japanese ancestry. But my children do. And I spend a lot of time within the culture, both in the US and in Japan, just in case you think I'm spitballing.

Also, the standard of dentistry is appalling. Certain stereotypes are quite true.
I'm happy that you wouldn't discount them. That's good enough. I'm good with that. There was a tone to infidel's remarks that I didn't like. A suggestion that maybe they're not worth the effort. I suspect Onyx got the same message.
If you want to suggest improvements to build Japanese culture 2.0 that's fine with me. You're closer to it than I am.
You might include all of western civilization in your improvement suggestions because virtually all have lower than replacement fertility rates incl. the US, so most have aging societies but for immigration. I think the Health Ministers of most western nations might also remind the women in their country that they can also have babies. Japan doesn't have the lowest fertility rate either and they have five times the population of N. Korea and 175% of the Japanese population in 1940. By active military personnel their armed forces are larger than those in France, Germany, Israel, etc. Plus like the others they have the US to help, by treaty.
Yes, but we are allowing the home defence fleet to steam out of home waters. They're flying the rising sun. I don't approve. I'd never remove a single base.

I'd let them die out. They're dangerous. I wouldn't trust them to stick by their treaty obligations, either. Then again, I wouldn't have let German reunification occur, either. Maybe I'm a reactionary, after all.
Dangerous. Now you're seeing it the way China does. They do not want to see a nuclear-armed Japan. These are not people that one characterizes as spent.
For some reason they didn't go through the national guilt and soul searching that Germany did.
I think there are at least two reasons behind that, Rusty. One is the fact that the much vaunted "face saving" really means "I can do no wrong and you are rude for questioning me". The second is the fact that we bought their medical information and tried very few people, thus legitimizing the whole affair. We should have hung the Showa Emperor from the nearest tree.

You're quite right that they're not spent yet. But they're on their way and we should encourage it.

I don't bear them hatred or ill will. Individual Japanese are wonderful. Collectively, they're the Borg. But I don't trust a culture where lying to your face is seen as great strength and obeying the highest caste in the room is seen as a source of personal honor.
On your last sentence, I think I could say something equivalent about any culture if I wanted to highlight their two worst cultural attributes and hangovers from some crappy history.
Yeah, you probably could. I've seen you say some pretty ridiculous things. :mrgreen:

I see what you mean--every society bears guilt. You're right, of course, but you're wrong, too. It's a favorite western trope that once we bring everybody up to our standards of living, they'll immediately see our civilization as the best and take steps to conform. Or, even more dangerously, that we really are just one happy human family that all wants the same thing.

In the case of Japan, though, it's still there right now. You couldn't get a straight answer out of a Japanese diplomat with electrical wires and a car battery. The official line is the Korean women were overjoyed and volunteered to be kidnapped and raped in their brothels. There's no apology for anything. They tried jury trials, recently. Colossal flop. The highest caste man didn't just become the foreman, he made the decision.

I always say Japan is the Gods Must be Crazy. They have the coke bottle, but don't know what the hell to do with it. Maybe the better analogy is the Cricketers: ever since they found out there's an outside world, they've been hell bent on destroying it.

And there can't be an apology, either. Bushido is bullshitto.
Last edited by hugodrax on Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:10 am

I am glad that is settled.

Now that we have solved the North Korea problem, what is the next pressing international concern for CPS to consider?
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Re: North Korea

Post by Rusty » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:02 am

Del wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:10 am
I am glad that is settled.

Now that we have solved the North Korea problem, what is the next pressing international concern for CPS to consider?
Well, we could always enjoy a Del presentation about the full portfolio of delicious WI cheese products and even other dairy products.... :lol:

Here's another good article. The other side (Russia, China) are going to try to ameliorate the situation with N. Korea while warning the US away from unilateral military action against N. Korea.

What’s Behind Sino-Russian Cooperation on North Korea? Russia and China have different rationales, but both are alarmed by the United States’ confrontational approach toward North Korea.
On April 15, 2017, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi made an emergency phone call to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov to discuss the burgeoning security crisis on the Korean peninsula. During their correspondence, Wang Yi requested Russia’s help in preventing a conflict between the United States and North Korea from taking place.
...
Cooperation between Russia and China against a unilateral U.S. military strike on North Korea has consisted of systematic violations of international sanctions and military activities aimed at deterring a U.S. military intervention. As the 2003 Iraq War and 2011 Libyan intervention demonstrated Washington’s tendency to use stringent economic isolation as a precursor to forceful regime change, Moscow and Beijing have violated carte blanche UN sanctions against the North Korean economy, and supported more limited punitive measures against the DPRK’s military-industrial complex.

In addition to implementing complementary economic support and military deterrence strategies, Russian and Chinese policymakers have simultaneously highlighted the effectiveness of bilateral engagement with the DPRK regime in their attempts to defuse the Korean security crisis. Coercive diplomacy employed by Moscow and Beijing towards North Korea has been characterized by two consistent themes which undercut the U.S. foreign policy establishment’s prevailing assumptions about the DPRK.

First, Russian and Chinese policymakers have implicitly rebutted the prevailing notion in Washington that North Korea’s nuclear buildup is an inexorable process. Instead, they have attempted to demonstrate that rhetorical criticisms can change the DPRK’s conduct.
...
Russia has criticized North Korea’s nuclear and ballistic missile tests on a case-by-case basis, but has refrained from overarching condemnations of the North Korean regime. This balanced approach was exemplified by Moscow’s April 19 veto of a UN resolution condemning North Korea’s nuclear tests. The Kremlin’s cautious criticisms of the DPRK can be explained by Russian President Vladimir Putin’s belief that constructive engagement with Pyongyang gives Moscow unique leverage over North Korea’s conduct, at a time when China’s commitment to the DPRK is waning and U.S.-North Korea tensions are at unprecedented levels.

Second, Russian and Chinese policymakers believe that U.S. attempts to completely isolate North Korea from the global economy create a siege mentality in Pyongyang. This sense of desperation has encouraged Kim Jong-Un to rally pro-regime nationalism around a belligerent foreign policy. To convince North Korea to change course, officials in Moscow and Beijing have advocated targeted, finite sanctions against the DPRK that can be lifted if Kim Jong-Un’s conduct improves.
It appears to be good news that might actually work. We'll see. And it's high time that they waded into this problem to see if there is a more constructive solution possible. Note that American behaviour has been typecast. It's not just Kim connecting economic isolation and then American military action, eg with Iraq & Libya, leading to regime change.

I wouldn't characterize this as a Trump failure. The US action has provoked the traditional N. Korean allies to wade into the problem and take some ownership. Neither of them want a belligerent nuclear-armed N. Korea either.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:41 am

Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:02 am
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:10 am
I am glad that is settled.

Now that we have solved the North Korea problem, what is the next pressing international concern for CPS to consider?
Well, we could always enjoy a Del presentation about the full portfolio of delicious WI cheese products and even other dairy products.... :lol:

Here's another good article. The other side (Russia, China) are going to try to ameliorate the situation with N. Korea while warning the US away from unilateral military action against N. Korea.

What’s Behind Sino-Russian Cooperation on North Korea? Russia and China have different rationales, but both are alarmed by the United States’ confrontational approach toward North Korea.
On April 15, 2017, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi made an emergency phone call to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov to discuss the burgeoning security crisis on the Korean peninsula. During their correspondence, Wang Yi requested Russia’s help in preventing a conflict between the United States and North Korea from taking place.
...
Cooperation between Russia and China against a unilateral U.S. military strike on North Korea has consisted of systematic violations of international sanctions and military activities aimed at deterring a U.S. military intervention. As the 2003 Iraq War and 2011 Libyan intervention demonstrated Washington’s tendency to use stringent economic isolation as a precursor to forceful regime change, Moscow and Beijing have violated carte blanche UN sanctions against the North Korean economy, and supported more limited punitive measures against the DPRK’s military-industrial complex.

In addition to implementing complementary economic support and military deterrence strategies, Russian and Chinese policymakers have simultaneously highlighted the effectiveness of bilateral engagement with the DPRK regime in their attempts to defuse the Korean security crisis. Coercive diplomacy employed by Moscow and Beijing towards North Korea has been characterized by two consistent themes which undercut the U.S. foreign policy establishment’s prevailing assumptions about the DPRK.

First, Russian and Chinese policymakers have implicitly rebutted the prevailing notion in Washington that North Korea’s nuclear buildup is an inexorable process. Instead, they have attempted to demonstrate that rhetorical criticisms can change the DPRK’s conduct.
...
Russia has criticized North Korea’s nuclear and ballistic missile tests on a case-by-case basis, but has refrained from overarching condemnations of the North Korean regime. This balanced approach was exemplified by Moscow’s April 19 veto of a UN resolution condemning North Korea’s nuclear tests. The Kremlin’s cautious criticisms of the DPRK can be explained by Russian President Vladimir Putin’s belief that constructive engagement with Pyongyang gives Moscow unique leverage over North Korea’s conduct, at a time when China’s commitment to the DPRK is waning and U.S.-North Korea tensions are at unprecedented levels.

Second, Russian and Chinese policymakers believe that U.S. attempts to completely isolate North Korea from the global economy create a siege mentality in Pyongyang. This sense of desperation has encouraged Kim Jong-Un to rally pro-regime nationalism around a belligerent foreign policy. To convince North Korea to change course, officials in Moscow and Beijing have advocated targeted, finite sanctions against the DPRK that can be lifted if Kim Jong-Un’s conduct improves.
It appears to be good news that might actually work. We'll see. And it's high time that they waded into this problem to see if there is a more constructive solution possible. Note that American behaviour has been typecast. It's not just Kim connecting economic isolation and then American military action, eg with Iraq & Libya, leading to regime change.

I wouldn't characterize this as a Trump failure. The US action has provoked the traditional N. Korean allies to wade into the problem and take some ownership. Neither of them want a belligerent nuclear-armed N. Korea either.
I reckon that Moscow and Beijing are talking with Washington as well.

Good cop/bad cop.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Goose55 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am

Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

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Re: North Korea

Post by Rusty » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am

Del wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:41 am
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:02 am
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:10 am
I am glad that is settled.

Now that we have solved the North Korea problem, what is the next pressing international concern for CPS to consider?
Well, we could always enjoy a Del presentation about the full portfolio of delicious WI cheese products and even other dairy products.... :lol:

Here's another good article. The other side (Russia, China) are going to try to ameliorate the situation with N. Korea while warning the US away from unilateral military action against N. Korea.

What’s Behind Sino-Russian Cooperation on North Korea? Russia and China have different rationales, but both are alarmed by the United States’ confrontational approach toward North Korea.
On April 15, 2017, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi made an emergency phone call to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov to discuss the burgeoning security crisis on the Korean peninsula. During their correspondence, Wang Yi requested Russia’s help in preventing a conflict between the United States and North Korea from taking place.
...
Cooperation between Russia and China against a unilateral U.S. military strike on North Korea has consisted of systematic violations of international sanctions and military activities aimed at deterring a U.S. military intervention. As the 2003 Iraq War and 2011 Libyan intervention demonstrated Washington’s tendency to use stringent economic isolation as a precursor to forceful regime change, Moscow and Beijing have violated carte blanche UN sanctions against the North Korean economy, and supported more limited punitive measures against the DPRK’s military-industrial complex.

In addition to implementing complementary economic support and military deterrence strategies, Russian and Chinese policymakers have simultaneously highlighted the effectiveness of bilateral engagement with the DPRK regime in their attempts to defuse the Korean security crisis. Coercive diplomacy employed by Moscow and Beijing towards North Korea has been characterized by two consistent themes which undercut the U.S. foreign policy establishment’s prevailing assumptions about the DPRK.

First, Russian and Chinese policymakers have implicitly rebutted the prevailing notion in Washington that North Korea’s nuclear buildup is an inexorable process. Instead, they have attempted to demonstrate that rhetorical criticisms can change the DPRK’s conduct.
...
Russia has criticized North Korea’s nuclear and ballistic missile tests on a case-by-case basis, but has refrained from overarching condemnations of the North Korean regime. This balanced approach was exemplified by Moscow’s April 19 veto of a UN resolution condemning North Korea’s nuclear tests. The Kremlin’s cautious criticisms of the DPRK can be explained by Russian President Vladimir Putin’s belief that constructive engagement with Pyongyang gives Moscow unique leverage over North Korea’s conduct, at a time when China’s commitment to the DPRK is waning and U.S.-North Korea tensions are at unprecedented levels.

Second, Russian and Chinese policymakers believe that U.S. attempts to completely isolate North Korea from the global economy create a siege mentality in Pyongyang. This sense of desperation has encouraged Kim Jong-Un to rally pro-regime nationalism around a belligerent foreign policy. To convince North Korea to change course, officials in Moscow and Beijing have advocated targeted, finite sanctions against the DPRK that can be lifted if Kim Jong-Un’s conduct improves.
It appears to be good news that might actually work. We'll see. And it's high time that they waded into this problem to see if there is a more constructive solution possible. Note that American behaviour has been typecast. It's not just Kim connecting economic isolation and then American military action, eg with Iraq & Libya, leading to regime change.

I wouldn't characterize this as a Trump failure. The US action has provoked the traditional N. Korean allies to wade into the problem and take some ownership. Neither of them want a belligerent nuclear-armed N. Korea either.
I reckon that Moscow and Beijing are talking with Washington as well.

Good cop/bad cop.
I'm sure that's the case. And rumour says that the wiley old Trump is planning on Big Three conferences & golf at Mar-a-Lago. I'm sure that the costs to the US Gov will be reasonable. Do you know he's trying to sell the S. Koreans on a wall?
If & when the fourth (Kim) shows up you'll know everything is copacetic.
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
How do you define effective?
"We're taking orders via Twitter now?" .... At the Pentagon

Oh Hillary... You abandon us to this?

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Re: North Korea

Post by Goose55 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: North Korea

Post by Thunktank » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.

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Re: North Korea

Post by Onyx » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:49 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.
Rodman, Trump and Kim. There's a trio to stake our future on.
4. No more signatures that quote other CPS members.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Rusty » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:42 pm

Onyx wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:49 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.
Rodman, Trump and Kim. There's a trio to stake our future on.
It appears that it's really Putin, Xi Jinping, and Kim. Feel better?
"We're taking orders via Twitter now?" .... At the Pentagon

Oh Hillary... You abandon us to this?

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Andrei Sakharov & Edward Teller - Evidence that they actually met

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Re: North Korea

Post by Onyx » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:55 pm

Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:42 pm
Onyx wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:49 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.
Rodman, Trump and Kim. There's a trio to stake our future on.
It appears that it's really Putin, Xi Jinping, and Kim. Feel better?
Of the five men, Rodman's probably the only one to make an honest living.
4. No more signatures that quote other CPS members.
-- Thunktank

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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:32 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.
Carmen Electra?
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: North Korea

Post by Thunktank » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:38 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:32 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.
Carmen Electra?
No, Michelle. And I did not help her, but I listened a lot and pointed her toward the help she needed.

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Onyx
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Re: North Korea

Post by Onyx » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:47 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:38 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:32 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.
Carmen Electra?
No, Michelle. And I did not help her, but I listened a lot and pointed her toward the help she needed.
I'm no basketball expert, but I thought Dennis Rodman married himself.
4. No more signatures that quote other CPS members.
-- Thunktank

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Thunktank
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Location: Ad Orientem

Re: North Korea

Post by Thunktank » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:40 pm

Onyx wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:38 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:32 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:05 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:44 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
Maybe Jocose was onto something. This U.S. Basketball player, Rodman could well act as an effective ambassador. Here's a pic of him meeting with Kim. Was it recently that Kim had him as a guest at his palatial N. Korean coastal home?

Image
Rusty wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am
How do you define effective?
ANYTHING that could distract this strange N. Korean leader. Maybe Trump could go along with Rodman and drink Champagne with Kim. Maybe Trump & Kim could become friends. Sounds far fetched but geez Louise we've got to try something.
Lol!

I know Dennis somewhat, I lived a mile from him for years, I talked with his ex wife a number of times and she asked me to help her with her real estate needs. There was ALWAYS a party at their house. He was the neighborhood nuisance! Again, funny.
Carmen Electra?
No, Michelle. And I did not help her, but I listened a lot and pointed her toward the help she needed.
I'm no basketball expert, but I thought Dennis Rodman married himself.
I'm not entirely sure he knew he was married and if he did, I don't think he cared.

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