North Korea

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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:53 pm

Rusty wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:30 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:01 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:27 am
A timeline of North Korea's nuclear program for perspective:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin ... ar_program

An article exploring the US's options and the likely consequences of acting on those options:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... th/528717/

I agree with Del that this situation is serious and requires thoughtfulness in the electorate beyond simple "blame." This situation has been decades in the making.

But regarding where we stand today, I also agree with those who are deeply concerned that our current president's often demonstrated lack of understanding of complex matters and distrust of those who have spent their lives in service to the nation gaining that understanding, his propensity for unvetted and ill-considered outbursts and this administration's failure to properly staff critical embassies and agencies like the DOE and the State Department are cause for legitimate concern regarding an unintended and catastrophic nuclear exchange.

I'll be asked for sources. There are far too many to cite and too little time, but this is not a bad start:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/07 ... hael-lewis
I have my own reasons for respecting Vanity Fair. I will give this article a good study.

Meanwhile.... I have not observed any "unvetted and ill-considered outbursts." He usually seems to know what he is doing, and with great effect. (well, there was that hilarious "covfefe" tweet.)

However, I have seen the leftist media accuse President Trump of these things, almost daily. These same people keep telling me that the Trump Administration is in "chaos." They also say "unhinged" a lot.

And now that there is a real international crisis confronting us (not just some empty-word "Paris Accord"), the media have no vocabulary to say "stand together for America."

A paranoid, psychotic dictator with a god-complex has ICBM's with atomic warheads, and he is pointing them at America.
Why would Trump point warheads at America? This is his latest madness, right?
Chaos and unhinged are commonly accepted words that do describe the White House. It's not just respected journalists, but respected Senators have also used those terms. Many in Canada are nervous about Trump and we use those terms too. Britain uses those terms, so do France and Germany. I think there's a good chance that some translation of them is used in Russia and China too to describe the White House.
So cute.

Lots of media people and politicians say those words. As to whether those persons are "respected," it depends.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Thunktank » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:09 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:27 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:08 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:34 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:34 am
+JMJ+

I hereby pronounce this thread …
Image
You could offer your own thoughts... or at least comment on the article you posted.

Thunktank thinks that Trump is a "war-lord."

TNLP thinks that Trump is a snowflake who requires dossiers of constant affirmation.

Tuttle is disconcerted that there are people who support our President with pride and enthusiasm.

What do you think?

I am cautiously hoping that the world's strategy of threats against Korean violence, along with offers of peaceful resolution, will prevail and achieve peace. But know one knows what Kim Jong-un will do. All we know is that the Left will blame Trump if it turns out badly. They will not give him credit if it ends peacefully.

Meanwhile, Trump is doing exactly what Kennedy did during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Ultimatums up front, combined with offers for peace. I hope is works again this time.
Del, don't put words in my mouth. I said, "I couldn't believe how war-lord like Trump spoke the other day." Hyphen and all even! Then you swashbuckle right on through and call me a liberal, which is again, not true. I'm a centrist, not that you care or understand, because your binary approach to all things, disables your ability to succinctly understand that what people actually believe that isn't the straw people you create in your mind about them.

Now to clarify, I only commented on his little off the cuff speech of fire and destruction. Nothing more. But, I oppose such rethoric because I believe it escalates the problem, not de escalate it as is appropriate for an American president to try to do. If North Korea actually bombs someone, then and only then shall we act with fire and destruction against the enemy, we need not beat our chest and open our collective mouth through our President like this. The solution to this problem is clear to me. We quietly prepare to defend and destroy while saying as little as possible to or about North Korea accept with other countries who act as part of the solution, we carry out UN sanctions and ignore this despotic regime as much as possible, while making very clear that any attack from him will be responded appropriately to.
Hmmm.... I call myself a centrist, too. And we would probably sort this out well over a pipe or two.

I am tired of our buddy Wosbald posting a link to an article, no comment provided.... then declaring a thread "Delled" as we talk about it.

I didn't mean to mis-represent you. Just pointing out that you expressed a clear opinion, using a memorable word from your post. And I am thankful for it.

I am especially glad that you propose some real plan of action. To me, your plan sounds exactly like what Trump is doing. Trump was not "beating our chest." He was "making very clear that any attack from [Kim] will be responded appropriately to."

Two points to consider:
- We have tried peaceful appeasement. Clear threats are the only language that these terrorist states and despots understand.
- Would we be any better off if Hillary were in charge? Are there any American leaders whom you would rather see us through this?

We look at peaceful de-escalations of history, and they often started with threats of massive retaliation. (Contrast with Neville Chamberlain's peace accord with Hitler.) How much more time do we give North Korea to build up their arsenal? And remember that Iran is watching this closely.

I look at Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy.... Our enemies have learned to respect America when we state our clear firmness of will.
I agree that firmness and clarity are hugely important. I have no issue with those concepts. Military action is required here, albeit defensive only for now, as long as there is hope to maintain peace though other political means. The problem I have wth Trump are the words chosen and the timing of those words. If we're going to use words of war, we need to be at war. We are not. At this time, we need to be clear that an attack from North Korea will not be tolerated and clear objectives, whatever they are, concerning North Korea's current escalation of arms use needs to be addressed with statesmanship. There's too much at stake for Trump to be talking off the cuff.

As far as a thread being "Delled" is concerned. Why can the rest of us understand what that means but you don't?

I wish wosbald would stop simply posting links to news sources without comment too. We have lots of "in the news" threads, which is fine, but honestly, is CPS a good news source? I hope not.

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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:38 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:09 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:27 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:08 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:34 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:34 am
+JMJ+

I hereby pronounce this thread …
Image
You could offer your own thoughts... or at least comment on the article you posted.

Thunktank thinks that Trump is a "war-lord."

TNLP thinks that Trump is a snowflake who requires dossiers of constant affirmation.

Tuttle is disconcerted that there are people who support our President with pride and enthusiasm.

What do you think?

I am cautiously hoping that the world's strategy of threats against Korean violence, along with offers of peaceful resolution, will prevail and achieve peace. But know one knows what Kim Jong-un will do. All we know is that the Left will blame Trump if it turns out badly. They will not give him credit if it ends peacefully.

Meanwhile, Trump is doing exactly what Kennedy did during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Ultimatums up front, combined with offers for peace. I hope is works again this time.
Del, don't put words in my mouth. I said, "I couldn't believe how war-lord like Trump spoke the other day." Hyphen and all even! Then you swashbuckle right on through and call me a liberal, which is again, not true. I'm a centrist, not that you care or understand, because your binary approach to all things, disables your ability to succinctly understand that what people actually believe that isn't the straw people you create in your mind about them.

Now to clarify, I only commented on his little off the cuff speech of fire and destruction. Nothing more. But, I oppose such rethoric because I believe it escalates the problem, not de escalate it as is appropriate for an American president to try to do. If North Korea actually bombs someone, then and only then shall we act with fire and destruction against the enemy, we need not beat our chest and open our collective mouth through our President like this. The solution to this problem is clear to me. We quietly prepare to defend and destroy while saying as little as possible to or about North Korea accept with other countries who act as part of the solution, we carry out UN sanctions and ignore this despotic regime as much as possible, while making very clear that any attack from him will be responded appropriately to.
Hmmm.... I call myself a centrist, too. And we would probably sort this out well over a pipe or two.

I am tired of our buddy Wosbald posting a link to an article, no comment provided.... then declaring a thread "Delled" as we talk about it.

I didn't mean to mis-represent you. Just pointing out that you expressed a clear opinion, using a memorable word from your post. And I am thankful for it.

I am especially glad that you propose some real plan of action. To me, your plan sounds exactly like what Trump is doing. Trump was not "beating our chest." He was "making very clear that any attack from [Kim] will be responded appropriately to."

Two points to consider:
- We have tried peaceful appeasement. Clear threats are the only language that these terrorist states and despots understand.
- Would we be any better off if Hillary were in charge? Are there any American leaders whom you would rather see us through this?

We look at peaceful de-escalations of history, and they often started with threats of massive retaliation. (Contrast with Neville Chamberlain's peace accord with Hitler.) How much more time do we give North Korea to build up their arsenal? And remember that Iran is watching this closely.

I look at Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy.... Our enemies have learned to respect America when we state our clear firmness of will.
I agree that firmness and clarity are hugely important. I have no issue with those concepts. Military action is required here, albeit defensive only for now, as long as there is hope to maintain peace though other political means. The problem I have wth Trump are the words chosen and the timing of those words. If we're going to use words of war, we need to be at war. We are not. At this time, we need to be clear that an attack from North Korea will not be tolerated and clear objectives, whatever they are, concerning North Korea's current escalation of arms use needs to be addressed with statesmanship. There's too much at stake for Trump to be talking off the cuff.

As far as a thread being "Delled" is concerned. Why can the rest of us understand what that means but you don't?

I wish wosbald would stop simply posting links to news sources without comment too. We have lots of "in the news" threads, which is fine, but honestly, is CPS a good news source? I hope not.
yes, I know what Wozzie means.

We can respectfully disagree as to whether Trump's bold comment was helpful or not. I think it was appropriate... and with equally good reason, you think it was not.

We will not know until Emperor Kim chooses his response. It is likely that the Kim dynasty means to continue his build-up and is itching to pull a trigger.... and nothing that Bush or Clinton or Trump ever said or did will make any difference.

We will have peace when Kim wants it.
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Re: North Korea

Post by wosbald » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:55 pm

+JMJ+

Is the American Empire Worth the Price?
… As Secretary of Defense James Mattis said Sunday, such a war would be “catastrophic. … A conflict in North Korea … would be probably the worst kind of fighting in most people’s lifetimes.”

When the lesson sinks in that a war on the peninsula would be a catastrophe, and a growing arsenal of North Korean ICBMs targeted on America is intolerable, the question must arise:

Why not move U.S. forces off the peninsula, let South Korean troops replace them, sell Seoul all the modern weapons it needs, and let Seoul build its own nuclear arsenal to deter the North?

Remove any incentive for Kim to attack us, except to invite his own suicide. And tell China: Halt Kim’s ICBM program, or we will help South Korea and Japan become nuclear powers like Britain and France. …




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: North Korea

Post by Skip » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:31 pm

Do they even allow pipe tobacco in North Korea?

Who gives a flying f*** at a rolling donut on the moon? (In a space suit?)
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Re: North Korea

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:46 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:31 pm
Do they even allow pipe tobacco in North Korea?

Who gives a flying f*** at a rolling donut on the moon? (In a space suit?)
Now, now, I'm thoroughly enjoying reading the thoughts of the hoi polloi on international diplomacy.
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Re: North Korea

Post by A_Morley » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:16 pm

You just know that the movers and shakers of all the major world powers are checking CPS to see what Goose and Del have said their next move should be. History in the making here, folks. History.
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Re: North Korea

Post by UncleBob » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:31 am

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Re: North Korea

Post by Jester » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:54 am

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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:01 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:46 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:31 pm
Do they even allow pipe tobacco in North Korea?

Who gives a flying f*** at a rolling donut on the moon? (In a space suit?)
Now, now, I'm thoroughly enjoying reading the thoughts of the hoi polloi on international diplomacy.
North Korea says Guam strike plan ready within days

'We could be gone tomorrow': Life in North Korea's crosshairs
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Re: North Korea

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:20 am

APNewsBreak: Beyond bluster, US, NKorea in regular contact.

Diplomacy has been conducted through back channels since the Trump Administration assumed office. Time will tell whether the bluster in the headlines is mere posturing or a threat to the diplomacy.

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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:29 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:20 am
APNewsBreak: Beyond bluster, US, NKorea in regular contact.

Diplomacy has been conducted through back channels since the Trump Administration assumed office. Time will tell whether the bluster in the headlines is mere posturing or a threat to the diplomacy.
Or an essential part of the diplomacy.

It still looks like "good cop, bad cop" to me. We have shown them a clear choice between the peaceful resolution that we want -- or a dire consequence that they don't want.

Quiet, "back channel" diplomacy alone has failed to stop Kim's development of missiles and nuclear weapons. We can be sure that Kim's regime has been warned about military reaction for months (perhaps even years) now, and Trump's recent words are not surprising news to them.
Last edited by Del on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Goose55 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:32 am

Strategic strikes that take out only the missile launching sites is really the only sensible way to put an end to this madness. And then monitor for any and all reconstruction of launch sites.

Clean, fast, and effective.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Jester » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:34 am

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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:39 am

Goose55 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:32 am
Strategic strikes that take out only the missile launching sites is really the only sensible way to put an end to this madness. And then monitor for any and all reconstruction of launch sites.

Clean, fast, and effective.
I wish it were that simple.

Modern military tech means underground silos and mobile launch platforms.

Easier to target where their nuclear reactors are, but these are shielded in cities with civilian populations.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: North Korea

Post by A_Morley » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:42 am

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Re: North Korea

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:54 am

Del wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:29 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:20 am
APNewsBreak: Beyond bluster, US, NKorea in regular contact.

Diplomacy has been conducted through back channels since the Trump Administration assumed office. Time will tell whether the bluster in the headlines is mere posturing or a threat to the diplomacy.
Or an essential part of the diplomacy.

It still looks like "good cop, bad cop" to me. We have shown them a clear choice between the peaceful resolution that we want -- or a dire consequence that they don't want.

Quiet, "back channel" diplomacy alone has failed to stop Kim's development of missiles and nuclear weapons. We can be sure that Kim's regime has been warned about military reaction for months (perhaps even years) now, and Trump's recent words are not surprising news to them.
Quiet diplomacy has failed to stop nuclear proliferation in North Korea because China has never been on board with sanctions until now. North Korea will act according to the way China tells it to act.

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Re: North Korea

Post by Del » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:06 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:54 am
Del wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:29 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:20 am
APNewsBreak: Beyond bluster, US, NKorea in regular contact.

Diplomacy has been conducted through back channels since the Trump Administration assumed office. Time will tell whether the bluster in the headlines is mere posturing or a threat to the diplomacy.
Or an essential part of the diplomacy.

It still looks like "good cop, bad cop" to me. We have shown them a clear choice between the peaceful resolution that we want -- or a dire consequence that they don't want.

Quiet, "back channel" diplomacy alone has failed to stop Kim's development of missiles and nuclear weapons. We can be sure that Kim's regime has been warned about military reaction for months (perhaps even years) now, and Trump's recent words are not surprising news to them.
Quiet diplomacy has failed to stop nuclear proliferation in North Korea because China has never been on board with sanctions until now. North Korea will act according to the way China tells it to act.
Perhaps China has been waiting for America to become angry enough to threaten military action.... or waiting for North Korea to become crazy enough to provoke Americans into action.
===============================

I don't know what to make of the following. Just sharing it for general consideration:

Trump's approval polling spiking upward as he deals firmly with North Korea's regime.... coming off of his lowest polling after the turnover of some key White House staffers.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... rack_aug11

Most American voters approve and now they even expect military action against North Korea.

This could explain the cheering of some Trump supporters that tuttle described.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: North Korea

Post by Goose55 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:11 am

Del wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:39 am
Goose55 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:32 am
Strategic strikes that take out only the missile launching sites is really the only sensible way to put an end to this madness. And then monitor for any and all reconstruction of launch sites.

Clean, fast, and effective.
I wish it were that simple.

Modern military tech means underground silos and mobile launch platforms.

Easier to target where their nuclear reactors are, but these are shielded in cities with civilian populations.
Human shielding. Now that is the epitome of evil.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Jester » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:20 am

Image
When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

Every morning get alone with God and preach his Word into your mind until your heart sings with confidence that you are new and cared for. -John Piper

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