We did communion wrong today.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:37 am

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 am


Sin is "that which separates us from God."
Agree

Salvation is forgiveness of that sin. Salvation is "that which restores our relationship with God."
Agree, though this contradicts a bit of what you say near the end. This almost sounds like an incomplete forgiveness. A conditional forgiveness upon our merit and not on what Christ freely bestows upon us. Not even to end upon our death but also our actions into purgatory. Kind of a way to pay for our forgiveness though Christ paid it all.
One can have a saving relationship with God and still just barely know Him. Perhaps one has read about Jesus in the Scripture, and even prayed a sincere prayer of offering oneself to Jesus. This is adequate for salvation, but Jesus wants more for us.
We are not in full agreement with how Christ saves but I agree that Christ wants us to know him more and there are some who don't know him well.
He wants us to know His friends, His family, His Mother and for us to have relationships with them now, as we will in Heaven.

Jesus wants us to receive the reality of His body and blood, and not just as a spiritual thing. He wants to part of us now, as He will be in heaven.

Jesus also wants us to have the fullness of Truth, the truth that sets us free. He wants us to know the Scriptures, and he wants us to know what the Apostles knew as they wrote the Scriptures. Indeed He expects us to understand more deeply than the Apostles did, as His Holy Spirit has been guiding us for 2000 years.

Collectively, the truth of divine teaching, the conduits of sanctifying grace, and the fellowship of all Christians (on earth and in heaven) is known to us as Christ's "Church." Jesus also spoke of it often as the "Kingdom of God." It is the Way, the Truth, and the Life that Jesus spoke of.... His Church is the means for us to participate in Him. It is no surprise that the Church in Acts 2 referred to themselves as "The Way."
I only see two reasons as to why you would write this
1. You don't believe Protestants agree with this.
2. You believe only the RCC has access to answers for this information.

Prots believe we have an active family relationship with all believers. We have our differences in Trans/Consubstantiation but that doesn't mean we don't believe we are part of him now. We don't believe we are now like we will be in heaven because the Bible says we will be different in heaven. We also believe Jesus wants us to have the fullness of Truth. This is why he sent the Spirit and his Word. We also believe this has guided us for 2000 years. We also believe we are part of the Kingdom of God and church participation for believers.
Perhaps it helps to look at salvation as a process.
- The first step of salvation is some decision of will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
- The ongoing process of salvation is to live obediently to His commands, and enter into all of these things -- which Christ has given us -- that draw us closer to Him.
- The final end of salvation is death, judgment, and hopefully eternity with Him.
-With our differences I can agree on your first point as one who receives a saving faith will make a proclamation they accept that Christ is Lord.
-The ongoing process of sanctification allows us to see the holiness of God more each day in contrast to our sin filled life which gets bigger everyday. This reminding us daily of the cross and what Christ freely saved us from and imputed his righteousness to us.
+There is no end to this salvation, there is no death and we can have full assurance that we have inherited an eternal relationship with Christ.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm

Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:37 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 am


Sin is "that which separates us from God."
Agree

Salvation is forgiveness of that sin. Salvation is "that which restores our relationship with God."
Agree, though this contradicts a bit of what you say near the end. This almost sounds like an incomplete forgiveness. A conditional forgiveness upon our merit and not on what Christ freely bestows upon us. Not even to end upon our death but also our actions into purgatory. Kind of a way to pay for our forgiveness though Christ paid it all.
One can have a saving relationship with God and still just barely know Him. Perhaps one has read about Jesus in the Scripture, and even prayed a sincere prayer of offering oneself to Jesus. This is adequate for salvation, but Jesus wants more for us.
We are not in full agreement with how Christ saves but I agree that Christ wants us to know him more and there are some who don't know him well.
He wants us to know His friends, His family, His Mother and for us to have relationships with them now, as we will in Heaven.

Jesus wants us to receive the reality of His body and blood, and not just as a spiritual thing. He wants to part of us now, as He will be in heaven.

Jesus also wants us to have the fullness of Truth, the truth that sets us free. He wants us to know the Scriptures, and he wants us to know what the Apostles knew as they wrote the Scriptures. Indeed He expects us to understand more deeply than the Apostles did, as His Holy Spirit has been guiding us for 2000 years.

Collectively, the truth of divine teaching, the conduits of sanctifying grace, and the fellowship of all Christians (on earth and in heaven) is known to us as Christ's "Church." Jesus also spoke of it often as the "Kingdom of God." It is the Way, the Truth, and the Life that Jesus spoke of.... His Church is the means for us to participate in Him. It is no surprise that the Church in Acts 2 referred to themselves as "The Way."
I only see two reasons as to why you would write this
1. You don't believe Protestants agree with this.
2. You believe only the RCC has access to answers for this information.

Prots believe we have an active family relationship with all believers. We have our differences in Trans/Consubstantiation but that doesn't mean we don't believe we are part of him now. We don't believe we are now like we will be in heaven because the Bible says we will be different in heaven. We also believe Jesus wants us to have the fullness of Truth. This is why he sent the Spirit and his Word. We also believe this has guided us for 2000 years. We also believe we are part of the Kingdom of God and church participation for believers.
Perhaps it helps to look at salvation as a process.
- The first step of salvation is some decision of will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
- The ongoing process of salvation is to live obediently to His commands, and enter into all of these things -- which Christ has given us -- that draw us closer to Him.
- The final end of salvation is death, judgment, and hopefully eternity with Him.
-With our differences I can agree on your first point as one who receives a saving faith will make a proclamation they accept that Christ is Lord.
-The ongoing process of sanctification allows us to see the holiness of God more each day in contrast to our sin filled life which gets bigger everyday. This reminding us daily of the cross and what Christ freely saved us from and imputed his righteousness to us.
+There is no end to this salvation, there is no death and we can have full assurance that we have inherited an eternal relationship with Christ.
I don't put any concern into that "paid for our sin" stuff.

Forgiveness is in proportion to our repentance. We decide how much we want to be forgiven. If we ask for forgiveness but still cling to our sins, we set the limits.

And relationship is in proportion to our desire to let Christ be part of our lives. If we are lukewarm, then Jesus told us how He feels about that... in Scripture, so you know it's true.

Salvation is not "flat." There are great saints -- and there are souls who are barely saved. Our personal goal as Christians is to become saints before we die.

I have a long way to go, but I am (literally) eternally grateful that I have Christ's Church and all of Her gifts to guide and help me. I wish all Christians would reach out and take everything in Christ's Church (in addition to the Church's Scripture).
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:34 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:37 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 am


Sin is "that which separates us from God."
Agree

Salvation is forgiveness of that sin. Salvation is "that which restores our relationship with God."
Agree, though this contradicts a bit of what you say near the end. This almost sounds like an incomplete forgiveness. A conditional forgiveness upon our merit and not on what Christ freely bestows upon us. Not even to end upon our death but also our actions into purgatory. Kind of a way to pay for our forgiveness though Christ paid it all.
One can have a saving relationship with God and still just barely know Him. Perhaps one has read about Jesus in the Scripture, and even prayed a sincere prayer of offering oneself to Jesus. This is adequate for salvation, but Jesus wants more for us.
We are not in full agreement with how Christ saves but I agree that Christ wants us to know him more and there are some who don't know him well.
He wants us to know His friends, His family, His Mother and for us to have relationships with them now, as we will in Heaven.

Jesus wants us to receive the reality of His body and blood, and not just as a spiritual thing. He wants to part of us now, as He will be in heaven.

Jesus also wants us to have the fullness of Truth, the truth that sets us free. He wants us to know the Scriptures, and he wants us to know what the Apostles knew as they wrote the Scriptures. Indeed He expects us to understand more deeply than the Apostles did, as His Holy Spirit has been guiding us for 2000 years.

Collectively, the truth of divine teaching, the conduits of sanctifying grace, and the fellowship of all Christians (on earth and in heaven) is known to us as Christ's "Church." Jesus also spoke of it often as the "Kingdom of God." It is the Way, the Truth, and the Life that Jesus spoke of.... His Church is the means for us to participate in Him. It is no surprise that the Church in Acts 2 referred to themselves as "The Way."
I only see two reasons as to why you would write this
1. You don't believe Protestants agree with this.
2. You believe only the RCC has access to answers for this information.

Prots believe we have an active family relationship with all believers. We have our differences in Trans/Consubstantiation but that doesn't mean we don't believe we are part of him now. We don't believe we are now like we will be in heaven because the Bible says we will be different in heaven. We also believe Jesus wants us to have the fullness of Truth. This is why he sent the Spirit and his Word. We also believe this has guided us for 2000 years. We also believe we are part of the Kingdom of God and church participation for believers.
Perhaps it helps to look at salvation as a process.
- The first step of salvation is some decision of will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
- The ongoing process of salvation is to live obediently to His commands, and enter into all of these things -- which Christ has given us -- that draw us closer to Him.
- The final end of salvation is death, judgment, and hopefully eternity with Him.
-With our differences I can agree on your first point as one who receives a saving faith will make a proclamation they accept that Christ is Lord.
-The ongoing process of sanctification allows us to see the holiness of God more each day in contrast to our sin filled life which gets bigger everyday. This reminding us daily of the cross and what Christ freely saved us from and imputed his righteousness to us.
+There is no end to this salvation, there is no death and we can have full assurance that we have inherited an eternal relationship with Christ.
I don't put any concern into that "paid for our sin" stuff.

Forgiveness is in proportion to our repentance. We decide how much we want to be forgiven. If we ask for forgiveness but still cling to our sins, we set the limits.

And relationship is in proportion to our desire to let Christ be part of our lives. If we are lukewarm, then Jesus told us how He feels about that... in Scripture, so you know it's true.

Salvation is not "flat." There are great saints -- and there are souls who are barely saved. Our personal goal as Christians is to become saints before we die.

I have a long way to go, but I am (literally) eternally grateful that I have Christ's Church and all of Her gifts to guide and help me. I wish all Christians would reach out and take everything in Christ's Church (in addition to the Church's Scripture).
I disagree with your redemptive view of forgiveness. We are either completely forgiven by Christ at the moment of salvation or we are damned to Hell for eternity. God demands perfection and Christ imputed it to us on the cross. Christians are Saints at the moment of conversion because we are covered in the blood of the lamb. 2 Corinthians 5:21- "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:57 pm

Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:34 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:37 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 am


Sin is "that which separates us from God."
Agree

Salvation is forgiveness of that sin. Salvation is "that which restores our relationship with God."
Agree, though this contradicts a bit of what you say near the end. This almost sounds like an incomplete forgiveness. A conditional forgiveness upon our merit and not on what Christ freely bestows upon us. Not even to end upon our death but also our actions into purgatory. Kind of a way to pay for our forgiveness though Christ paid it all.
One can have a saving relationship with God and still just barely know Him. Perhaps one has read about Jesus in the Scripture, and even prayed a sincere prayer of offering oneself to Jesus. This is adequate for salvation, but Jesus wants more for us.
We are not in full agreement with how Christ saves but I agree that Christ wants us to know him more and there are some who don't know him well.
He wants us to know His friends, His family, His Mother and for us to have relationships with them now, as we will in Heaven.

Jesus wants us to receive the reality of His body and blood, and not just as a spiritual thing. He wants to part of us now, as He will be in heaven.

Jesus also wants us to have the fullness of Truth, the truth that sets us free. He wants us to know the Scriptures, and he wants us to know what the Apostles knew as they wrote the Scriptures. Indeed He expects us to understand more deeply than the Apostles did, as His Holy Spirit has been guiding us for 2000 years.

Collectively, the truth of divine teaching, the conduits of sanctifying grace, and the fellowship of all Christians (on earth and in heaven) is known to us as Christ's "Church." Jesus also spoke of it often as the "Kingdom of God." It is the Way, the Truth, and the Life that Jesus spoke of.... His Church is the means for us to participate in Him. It is no surprise that the Church in Acts 2 referred to themselves as "The Way."
I only see two reasons as to why you would write this
1. You don't believe Protestants agree with this.
2. You believe only the RCC has access to answers for this information.

Prots believe we have an active family relationship with all believers. We have our differences in Trans/Consubstantiation but that doesn't mean we don't believe we are part of him now. We don't believe we are now like we will be in heaven because the Bible says we will be different in heaven. We also believe Jesus wants us to have the fullness of Truth. This is why he sent the Spirit and his Word. We also believe this has guided us for 2000 years. We also believe we are part of the Kingdom of God and church participation for believers.
Perhaps it helps to look at salvation as a process.
- The first step of salvation is some decision of will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
- The ongoing process of salvation is to live obediently to His commands, and enter into all of these things -- which Christ has given us -- that draw us closer to Him.
- The final end of salvation is death, judgment, and hopefully eternity with Him.
-With our differences I can agree on your first point as one who receives a saving faith will make a proclamation they accept that Christ is Lord.
-The ongoing process of sanctification allows us to see the holiness of God more each day in contrast to our sin filled life which gets bigger everyday. This reminding us daily of the cross and what Christ freely saved us from and imputed his righteousness to us.
+There is no end to this salvation, there is no death and we can have full assurance that we have inherited an eternal relationship with Christ.
I don't put any concern into that "paid for our sin" stuff.

Forgiveness is in proportion to our repentance. We decide how much we want to be forgiven. If we ask for forgiveness but still cling to our sins, we set the limits.

And relationship is in proportion to our desire to let Christ be part of our lives. If we are lukewarm, then Jesus told us how He feels about that... in Scripture, so you know it's true.

Salvation is not "flat." There are great saints -- and there are souls who are barely saved. Our personal goal as Christians is to become saints before we die.

I have a long way to go, but I am (literally) eternally grateful that I have Christ's Church and all of Her gifts to guide and help me. I wish all Christians would reach out and take everything in Christ's Church (in addition to the Church's Scripture).
I disagree with your redemptive view of forgiveness. We are either completely forgiven by Christ at the moment of salvation or we are damned to Hell for eternity. God demands perfection and Christ imputed it to us on the cross. Christians are Saints at the moment of conversion because we are covered in the blood of the lamb. 2 Corinthians 5:21- "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
We are getting to the doctrinal tipping point of the Reformation.

I want to interject for a moment. Though you all know where I land on this, I want to at least put forward that it is possible within Protestantism (and more and more I'm becoming a greater proponent of this), the essential factor is that Christ saved us through his death and resurrection, yet we can disagree about How Christ saved us through his death and resurrection. Not that we ought or should disagree...it would be fab if we jived that way...but that we ought to recognize that the event happened and was effectual regardless of our Theory of How. And (to tie this in with the thread) we can believe Christ is really present in the Supper, yet we can disagree about HOW Christ is really present in the Supper. We (protestants) are able to do both things, we can simultaneously lock arms with other Protestants of differing denominations (and, shocker, even Catholic/Orthodox...if they'll reciprocate) being united in faith in Christ and still disagree over the How. Because our faith doesn't reside in the How. It resides in Christ.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:21 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:57 pm
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:34 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:37 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 am


Sin is "that which separates us from God."
Agree

Salvation is forgiveness of that sin. Salvation is "that which restores our relationship with God."
Agree, though this contradicts a bit of what you say near the end. This almost sounds like an incomplete forgiveness. A conditional forgiveness upon our merit and not on what Christ freely bestows upon us. Not even to end upon our death but also our actions into purgatory. Kind of a way to pay for our forgiveness though Christ paid it all.
One can have a saving relationship with God and still just barely know Him. Perhaps one has read about Jesus in the Scripture, and even prayed a sincere prayer of offering oneself to Jesus. This is adequate for salvation, but Jesus wants more for us.
We are not in full agreement with how Christ saves but I agree that Christ wants us to know him more and there are some who don't know him well.
He wants us to know His friends, His family, His Mother and for us to have relationships with them now, as we will in Heaven.

Jesus wants us to receive the reality of His body and blood, and not just as a spiritual thing. He wants to part of us now, as He will be in heaven.

Jesus also wants us to have the fullness of Truth, the truth that sets us free. He wants us to know the Scriptures, and he wants us to know what the Apostles knew as they wrote the Scriptures. Indeed He expects us to understand more deeply than the Apostles did, as His Holy Spirit has been guiding us for 2000 years.

Collectively, the truth of divine teaching, the conduits of sanctifying grace, and the fellowship of all Christians (on earth and in heaven) is known to us as Christ's "Church." Jesus also spoke of it often as the "Kingdom of God." It is the Way, the Truth, and the Life that Jesus spoke of.... His Church is the means for us to participate in Him. It is no surprise that the Church in Acts 2 referred to themselves as "The Way."
I only see two reasons as to why you would write this
1. You don't believe Protestants agree with this.
2. You believe only the RCC has access to answers for this information.

Prots believe we have an active family relationship with all believers. We have our differences in Trans/Consubstantiation but that doesn't mean we don't believe we are part of him now. We don't believe we are now like we will be in heaven because the Bible says we will be different in heaven. We also believe Jesus wants us to have the fullness of Truth. This is why he sent the Spirit and his Word. We also believe this has guided us for 2000 years. We also believe we are part of the Kingdom of God and church participation for believers.
Perhaps it helps to look at salvation as a process.
- The first step of salvation is some decision of will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
- The ongoing process of salvation is to live obediently to His commands, and enter into all of these things -- which Christ has given us -- that draw us closer to Him.
- The final end of salvation is death, judgment, and hopefully eternity with Him.
-With our differences I can agree on your first point as one who receives a saving faith will make a proclamation they accept that Christ is Lord.
-The ongoing process of sanctification allows us to see the holiness of God more each day in contrast to our sin filled life which gets bigger everyday. This reminding us daily of the cross and what Christ freely saved us from and imputed his righteousness to us.
+There is no end to this salvation, there is no death and we can have full assurance that we have inherited an eternal relationship with Christ.
I don't put any concern into that "paid for our sin" stuff.

Forgiveness is in proportion to our repentance. We decide how much we want to be forgiven. If we ask for forgiveness but still cling to our sins, we set the limits.

And relationship is in proportion to our desire to let Christ be part of our lives. If we are lukewarm, then Jesus told us how He feels about that... in Scripture, so you know it's true.

Salvation is not "flat." There are great saints -- and there are souls who are barely saved. Our personal goal as Christians is to become saints before we die.

I have a long way to go, but I am (literally) eternally grateful that I have Christ's Church and all of Her gifts to guide and help me. I wish all Christians would reach out and take everything in Christ's Church (in addition to the Church's Scripture).
I disagree with your redemptive view of forgiveness. We are either completely forgiven by Christ at the moment of salvation or we are damned to Hell for eternity. God demands perfection and Christ imputed it to us on the cross. Christians are Saints at the moment of conversion because we are covered in the blood of the lamb. 2 Corinthians 5:21- "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
We are getting to the doctrinal tipping point of the Reformation.

I want to interject for a moment. Though you all know where I land on this, I want to at least put forward that it is possible within Protestantism (and more and more I'm becoming a greater proponent of this), the essential factor is that Christ saved us through his death and resurrection, yet we can disagree about How Christ saved us through his death and resurrection. Not that we ought or should disagree...it would be fab if we jived that way...but that we ought to recognize that the event happened and was effectual regardless of our Theory of How. And (to tie this in with the thread) we can believe Christ is really present in the Supper, yet we can disagree about HOW Christ is really present in the Supper. We (protestants) are able to do both things, we can simultaneously lock arms with other Protestants of differing denominations (and, shocker, even Catholic/Orthodox...if they'll reciprocate) being united in faith in Christ and still disagree over the How. Because our faith doesn't reside in the How. It resides in Christ.
As much as I would like to imagine a quantum leap from sinner to saint, that is just not the lived experience of most Christians. Even St. Paul, whose words are twisted to mean these things, admits that he was himself prone to thorns and actions that did not conform to Christ's will in him. And of course, those ornery Christians in Corinth could never seem to get their sanctity on. Paul warned them about the dangers of receiving Christ "unworthily" (1 Cor 11).

I still wish that you two could embrace the fact that Jesus choose the Passover to be the model of His New Covenant, and not Yom Kippur.

Christ's death was not primarily about atonement (although that is certainly an important part).

The most important part of the Cross is that Jesus is the unblemished Lamb of God, Who offers Himself to us as food for our journey. He invites us to come to His altar and receive Him as our Savior in the Lord's Supper.

Catholic Christians say that the Eucharist is the "Source and Summit" of our Faith. Receiving Christ is the beginning of our salvation, the renewal of our promise, and the final goal of being joined in Christ. It's where we start, and where we end, and how we get along the way.

We have many things, such as Scripture, that help us point to Christ. The Eucharist is Christ. This is the biblical faith of the Apostles.... and if Calvin had not hated priests so darned much, it would be the faith of Protestants too.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:57 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:21 pm

As much as I would like to imagine a quantum leap from sinner to saint, that is just not the lived experience of most Christians. Even St. Paul, whose words are twisted to mean these things, admits that he was himself prone to thorns and actions that did not conform to Christ's will in him. And of course, those ornery Christians in Corinth could never seem to get their sanctity on. Paul warned them about the dangers of receiving Christ "unworthily" (1 Cor 11).
I know you wrote more but this is a good example of where we have the same word and different definitions. Saints in your mind have actually achieved some saving perfection by their own merit. Saints in my mind are sinners saved by grace but still in the flesh. You can't imagine sinner to saint because you are trying to imagine someone becoming sinless at the moment of salvation. I can imagine sinner to saint because I know that God see's me as his son at the moment of salvation. Christ's atonement was it man, it's finished. There is no, "do more, try harder" for salvation and then...
Del wrote:hopefully eternity with Him.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Winton » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:47 pm

Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:53 am
Off Topic
All this because Winton decided to hand out the wine first. See what can happen when you do communion wrong!
Technically, Mike, the elder, picked up the wine first. The rest of us followed his lead.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:02 pm

Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:57 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:21 pm

As much as I would like to imagine a quantum leap from sinner to saint, that is just not the lived experience of most Christians. Even St. Paul, whose words are twisted to mean these things, admits that he was himself prone to thorns and actions that did not conform to Christ's will in him. And of course, those ornery Christians in Corinth could never seem to get their sanctity on. Paul warned them about the dangers of receiving Christ "unworthily" (1 Cor 11).
I know you wrote more but this is a good example of where we have the same word and different definitions. Saints in your mind have actually achieved some saving perfection by their own merit. Saints in my mind are sinners saved by grace but still in the flesh. You can't imagine sinner to saint because you are trying to imagine someone becoming sinless at the moment of salvation. I can imagine sinner to saint because I know that God see's me as his son at the moment of salvation. Christ's atonement was it man, it's finished. There is no, "do more, try harder" for salvation and then...
Del wrote:hopefully eternity with Him.
I can't imagine that a sinner is a saint because "sin" is the thing that separates us from God, destroying our salvation.

And Hope is one of the three eternal virtues, according to St. Paul... "in the Bible."

Hope is a consequence of justification. Without being righteous, we cannot hope for salvation. But having been justified by Christ, we can live in hope for final salvation.

There are two sins against the virtue of Hope:
- Presumption, in which we assume that we have already got our ticket punched, and heaven is our destiny.
- Despair, in which we assume that our sins cannot be forgiven, and hell is our destiny.

In between, we live in hope of heaven.... as we "strive for that holiness without which no one can see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

I don't know what you mean by "saving perfection by their own merit." That's not the way we talk, or think. I don't know why Protestants and Evangelicals say that.

All we [Apostolic Christians] know is that salvation = relationship with Christ. And like any relationship, we get out of it what we put into it. We have no theology teaching us to fear any efforts or trying hard to be more like Christ, or grow closer to Christ, or live out obedience to our call from Christ. When we read the Bible, we see constant reminders and commands to keep do this work. We do it out of obedience, because it is good for us. We aren't even thinking about "salvation" as we strive to become holy.

We just do the best we can... and we imitate the great Saints who have already run the race and won the prize. We ask for their help. They are great coaches and mentors!
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:04 pm

Winton wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:47 pm
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:53 am
Off Topic
All this because Winton decided to hand out the wine first. See what can happen when you do communion wrong!
Technically, Mike, the elder, picked up the wine first. The rest of us followed his lead.
I know some celiac sufferers who go straight for the Precious Blood and abstain from receiving the Sacred Host altogether.

I wouldn't call that "wrong," though.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:13 am

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:02 pm
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:57 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:21 pm

As much as I would like to imagine a quantum leap from sinner to saint, that is just not the lived experience of most Christians. Even St. Paul, whose words are twisted to mean these things, admits that he was himself prone to thorns and actions that did not conform to Christ's will in him. And of course, those ornery Christians in Corinth could never seem to get their sanctity on. Paul warned them about the dangers of receiving Christ "unworthily" (1 Cor 11).
I know you wrote more but this is a good example of where we have the same word and different definitions. Saints in your mind have actually achieved some saving perfection by their own merit. Saints in my mind are sinners saved by grace but still in the flesh. You can't imagine sinner to saint because you are trying to imagine someone becoming sinless at the moment of salvation. I can imagine sinner to saint because I know that God see's me as his son at the moment of salvation. Christ's atonement was it man, it's finished. There is no, "do more, try harder" for salvation and then...
Del wrote:hopefully eternity with Him.
I can't imagine that a sinner is a saint because "sin" is the thing that separates us from God, destroying our salvation.

And Hope is one of the three eternal virtues, according to St. Paul... "in the Bible."

Hope is a consequence of justification. Without being righteous, we cannot hope for salvation. But having been justified by Christ, we can live in hope for final salvation.

There are two sins against the virtue of Hope:
- Presumption, in which we assume that we have already got our ticket punched, and heaven is our destiny.
- Despair, in which we assume that our sins cannot be forgiven, and hell is our destiny.

In between, we live in hope of heaven.... as we "strive for that holiness without which no one can see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

I don't know what you mean by "saving perfection by their own merit." That's not the way we talk, or think. I don't know why Protestants and Evangelicals say that.

All we [Apostolic Christians] know is that salvation = relationship with Christ. And like any relationship, we get out of it what we put into it. We have no theology teaching us to fear any efforts or trying hard to be more like Christ, or grow closer to Christ, or live out obedience to our call from Christ. When we read the Bible, we see constant reminders and commands to keep do this work. We do it out of obedience, because it is good for us. We aren't even thinking about "salvation" as we strive to become holy.

We just do the best we can... and we imitate the great Saints who have already run the race and won the prize. We ask for their help. They are great coaches and mentors!
Sin does separate us from God. Christ took all of our sin on the cross, past and future, destroying the hostility. We agree on the separation that sin creates. We disagree on the Gospel that saves us.

You may not say the exact words "saving perfection by their own merit." or you may not think these exact words. The logical conclusion, and you already agree with me on this, is that Jesus + something else = Salvation. That something else is not something that Christ does but it is something you must do. If you don't do it then Christ's death was not enough, then your salvation becomes perfected by your own merit. If you don't like the term I will try and use another but it is essentially going to mean the same thing.

Now when you speak of hope, you speak of it as Prots don't have hope and replaced hope with presumption. In defining this explanation you actually showed your view is Jesus + steps to get ticket punched = Salvation. Prots look at this a different way entirely. Jesus didn't give everyone an individual ticket and expect them to verify it and have it get punched. No, he gave us his already punched ticket. His ticket. Paul explains in Ephesians that those who believe in Christ are SEALED with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it. He goes on to say a few verses later that our hope is in this inheritance!
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:35 am

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:02 pm
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:57 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:21 pm

As much as I would like to imagine a quantum leap from sinner to saint, that is just not the lived experience of most Christians. Even St. Paul, whose words are twisted to mean these things, admits that he was himself prone to thorns and actions that did not conform to Christ's will in him. And of course, those ornery Christians in Corinth could never seem to get their sanctity on. Paul warned them about the dangers of receiving Christ "unworthily" (1 Cor 11).
I know you wrote more but this is a good example of where we have the same word and different definitions. Saints in your mind have actually achieved some saving perfection by their own merit. Saints in my mind are sinners saved by grace but still in the flesh. You can't imagine sinner to saint because you are trying to imagine someone becoming sinless at the moment of salvation. I can imagine sinner to saint because I know that God see's me as his son at the moment of salvation. Christ's atonement was it man, it's finished. There is no, "do more, try harder" for salvation and then...
Del wrote:hopefully eternity with Him.
I can't imagine that a sinner is a saint because "sin" is the thing that separates us from God, destroying our salvation.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Del wrote:And Hope is one of the three eternal virtues, according to St. Paul... "in the Bible."

Hope is a consequence of justification. Without being righteous, we cannot hope for salvation. But having been justified by Christ, we can live in hope for final salvation.

There are two sins against the virtue of Hope:
- Presumption, in which we assume that we have already got our ticket punched, and heaven is our destiny.
- Despair, in which we assume that our sins cannot be forgiven, and hell is our destiny.

In between, we live in hope of heaven.... as we "strive for that holiness without which no one can see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

I don't know what you mean by "saving perfection by their own merit." That's not the way we talk, or think. I don't know why Protestants and Evangelicals say that.
By 'saving perfection by their own merit' he means exactly what you wrote saying 'without being righteous, we cannot hope for salvation'.

This is the crux of Paul's argument in the early chapters of Romans. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. He didn't accomplish friendship with God by following a righteous law. And by extention, the true children of Abraham do not accomplish their salvation by their own righteousness. Neither salvation nor righteousness comes by working for either. The righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus.

'Therefore, says Paul, 'since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.' Justified by faith, and not by our own merit. Not even mingled merit.
Del wrote:All we [Apostolic Christians] know is that salvation = relationship with Christ. And like any relationship, we get out of it what we put into it. We have no theology teaching us to fear any efforts or trying hard to be more like Christ, or grow closer to Christ, or live out obedience to our call from Christ. When we read the Bible, we see constant reminders and commands to keep do this work. We do it out of obedience, because it is good for us. We aren't even thinking about "salvation" as we strive to become holy.

We just do the best we can... and we imitate the great Saints who have already run the race and won the prize. We ask for their help. They are great coaches and mentors!
I have no real beef with this viewpoint, other than the idea that "We aren't even thinking about salvation as we strive to become holy". I would contend that very, very few people who do not believe their salvation is already accomplished would think this way. Again, what you write is desirable, and for you perhaps it is a gift that you've been given to rest easy on your journey of sanctification, never thinking about the possibility of your salvation slipping through the cracks. But most of the world, Christian and non Christian, protestant and catholic, etc, look to justify theirselves by the work they do. Their default question, if they do indeed seek it, is "Am I good enough for X"? But the gospel does away with that thinking. Forget dour Puritans saying that no one is good, therefore no one is good enough. The Scriptures tell us that all of your work, good or bad...doesn't even matter. Only one thing saves, redeems, gives life. The blood of Christ. So how do we get in on this if our good works don't even get us over th hump? Paul again, "Through him [Jesus] we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand".

It is by faith. That's why we say faith alone is what grants us access into the grace in which we stand. It is from this point that we go and work and strive for holiness. Not because we're looking to achieve anything, or to remain in God's good graces, but because we are looking to please a Father like a child with a refrigerator-worthy crayon drawing. And in a real sense, it is now a part of who we are. Faith, like a seed, has been watered by the Word and the fruits of the Spirit start to spring up. Only at this point does what you say above start to make sense in the protestant paradigm. Like a marriage, once the vows are said, we're married. From that point on we are no longer seeking to become married, but we desire to life and grown and find the fruits of marriage year after year.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:44 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:35 am
Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. He didn't accomplish friendship with God by following a righteous law.
One of the issues here — from the POV of the dogmatic problematics it creates — is that, in order to get the results you want (i.e. imputed justice, rather than inherent justice), you have to have make Jesus into a case of special-pleading, with he, himself, "accomplishing friendship with God by following a righteous law". You have to make Jesus the perfect legalist. The perfect Pelagian.

When Paul says that "Salvation doesn't come through the Law", that's meant tout court. It's not meant as "for everybody but Jesus".




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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:30 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:44 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:35 am
Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. He didn't accomplish friendship with God by following a righteous law.
One of the issues here — from the POV of the dogmatic problematics it creates — is that, in order to get the results you want (i.e. imputed justice, rather than inherent justice), you have to have make Jesus into a case of special-pleading, with he, himself, "accomplishing friendship with God by following a righteous law". You have to make Jesus the perfect legalist. The perfect Pelagian.

When Paul says that "Salvation doesn't come through the Law", that's meant tout court. It's not meant as "for everybody but Jesus".
First thing. I'm speaking of imputed righteousness. So long as your usage of the word 'justice' is hitting the same gong, we're good.

Second thing. The above quotation, certainly written by me, is very much not my idea, nor even my own phrasing. So it's not the results I want. Abraham being justified by faith is specifically written in Genesis 15:6 and expounded upon in Romans 4.

Third thing. Jesus did not accomplish friendship with God. He is the only begotten Son of God, with whom, by the way, God is well pleased. Conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary. Something no Pelagian-mother's son has ever had the right to claim. And I, in no way, have to make Jesus the perfect legalist not only because he was without sin, but because legalism is abandoning the Spirit in order to adhere the letter of the law.

(Edit: I failed to tangle with your last line)

Fourth thing. Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law. He also said that "the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath". You are right, if you agree with Paul, that Salvation doesn't come through the Law. But your argument gets sticky when you try to point out that it's not meant as "for everybody but Jesus" because Jesus is (again) the fulfiller and the lord of the Law and was never in need of saving (see "Third thing"). I'm not sure what you are trying to shoehorn in here, but it seems a tough go whatever it is.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:06 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:44 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:35 am
Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. He didn't accomplish friendship with God by following a righteous law.
One of the issues here — from the POV of the dogmatic problematics it creates — is that, in order to get the results you want (i.e. imputed justice, rather than inherent justice), you have to have make Jesus into a case of special-pleading, with he, himself, "accomplishing friendship with God by following a righteous law". You have to make Jesus the perfect legalist. The perfect Pelagian.

When Paul says that "Salvation doesn't come through the Law", that's meant tout court. It's not meant as "for everybody but Jesus".
First thing. I'm speaking of imputed righteousness. So long as your usage of the word 'justice' is hitting the same gong, we're good.

Second thing. The above quotation, certainly written by me, is very much not my idea, nor even my own phrasing. So it's not the results I want. Abraham being justified by faith is specifically written in Genesis 15:6 and expounded upon in Romans 4.

Third thing. Jesus did not accomplish friendship with God. He is the only begotten Son of God, with whom, by the way, God is well pleased. Conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary. Something no Pelagian-mother's son has ever had the right to claim. And I, in no way, have to make Jesus the perfect legalist not only because he was without sin, but because legalism is abandoning the Spirit in order to adhere the letter of the law.
I'm not only going by the soteriology followed by Reformed/Calvinistic theologians. I'm going by what Jester said earlier in this thread:
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:34 pm
God demands perfection and Christ imputed it to us on the cross.
God demands perfection and this court-docket of legal perfection (a spotless record) which is accomplished by Jesus is transferred (imputed) to our ledger.


But now, you are saying that Jesus didn't have to accomplish anything? Because God doesn't demand anything? He doesn't demand "perfection"?




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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:35 am

Image

BTW, kudos to all for keeping this the calmest and most logical P v. C discussion we've had here. Del came close on a couple posts, but Wos, Jester, Tuttle? Well. Done. You.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:37 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:06 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:44 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:35 am
Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. He didn't accomplish friendship with God by following a righteous law.
One of the issues here — from the POV of the dogmatic problematics it creates — is that, in order to get the results you want (i.e. imputed justice, rather than inherent justice), you have to have make Jesus into a case of special-pleading, with he, himself, "accomplishing friendship with God by following a righteous law". You have to make Jesus the perfect legalist. The perfect Pelagian.

When Paul says that "Salvation doesn't come through the Law", that's meant tout court. It's not meant as "for everybody but Jesus".
First thing. I'm speaking of imputed righteousness. So long as your usage of the word 'justice' is hitting the same gong, we're good.

Second thing. The above quotation, certainly written by me, is very much not my idea, nor even my own phrasing. So it's not the results I want. Abraham being justified by faith is specifically written in Genesis 15:6 and expounded upon in Romans 4.

Third thing. Jesus did not accomplish friendship with God. He is the only begotten Son of God, with whom, by the way, God is well pleased. Conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary. Something no Pelagian-mother's son has ever had the right to claim. And I, in no way, have to make Jesus the perfect legalist not only because he was without sin, but because legalism is abandoning the Spirit in order to adhere the letter of the law.
I'm not only going by the soteriology followed by Reformed/Calvinistic theologians. I'm going by what Jester said earlier in this thread:
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:34 pm
God demands perfection and Christ imputed it to us on the cross.
God demands perfection and this court-docket of legal perfection (a spotless record) which is accomplished by Jesus is transferred (imputed) to our ledger.


But now, you are saying that Jesus didn't have to accomplish anything? Because God doesn't demand anything? He doesn't demand "perfection"?
I touched more on the law in my "Fourth thing" that was edited in just after I wrote my first three things. In that you'll see that I said Jesus fulfills the law. And he is also the Lord of the law. I didn't say Jesus didn't have to accomplish anything. I said he didn't accomplish friendship with God because he is the Son of God.

Here's the other thing. Jesus didn't derive his righteousness by way of the Law. That righteousness which is imputed to us wasn't a righteousness that was filled, little by little, as Jesus chucked good work after good work into the righteousness bucket until it reached the tippy-top. Righteousness is not gained through the law. The Law was given that sin might increase. The purpose of the Law was to reveal our sin. So I ask, in what way did the Law reveal the sin of Jesus? It didn't because he is the fulfiller and the lord of it.

Jesus accomplished everything. But not by way of the Law, as we see above, but by way of his Death and Resurrection. God's demands of perfection (holiness) have been satisfied in the death and resurrection of his Son. As Paul points out, "If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

It's all there in Galatians 3:

"Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit."
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by gaining_age » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:41 am

Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:35 am
Image

BTW, kudos to all for keeping this the calmest and most logical P v. C discussion we've had here. Del came close on a couple posts, but Wos, Jester, Tuttle? Well. Done. You.
+1. Good theology discussion going on worth reading here.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:07 am

gaining_age wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:41 am
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:35 am
Image

BTW, kudos to all for keeping this the calmest and most logical P v. C discussion we've had here. Del came close on a couple posts, but Wos, Jester, Tuttle? Well. Done. You.
+1. Good theology discussion going on worth reading here.
Del: You're wrong. How can you not see that you're wrong!?
Wos: You know I think you're wrong, but I'm trying to understand why you think the way you do.

Del, take notes.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:12 am

Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:07 am
gaining_age wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:41 am
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:35 am
Image

BTW, kudos to all for keeping this the calmest and most logical P v. C discussion we've had here. Del came close on a couple posts, but Wos, Jester, Tuttle? Well. Done. You.
+1. Good theology discussion going on worth reading here.
Del: You're wrong. How can you not see that you're wrong!?
Wos: You know I think you're wrong, but I'm trying to understand why you think the way you do.

Del, take notes.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:14 am

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:12 am
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:07 am
gaining_age wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:41 am
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:35 am
Image

BTW, kudos to all for keeping this the calmest and most logical P v. C discussion we've had here. Del came close on a couple posts, but Wos, Jester, Tuttle? Well. Done. You.
+1. Good theology discussion going on worth reading here.
Del: You're wrong. How can you not see that you're wrong!?
Wos: You know I think you're wrong, but I'm trying to understand why you think the way you do.

Del, take notes.
You don't want to know what I'm thinking as I sharpen this pencil.
Remember, I've received death threats on this board, so bring it on.

(And I pray for you and - I hope - you for me, so we've got that going for us...)
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