We did communion wrong today.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:33 am





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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by sweetandsour » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:55 am

We're leaving in a few mins, to go to our evangelical church for worship and Bible study. AFAIK, there will be no Communion. No Lord's Supper, if you will. I sure wish we were, though.
As thus we sat in darkness
Each one busy with his prayers,
"We are lost!" the captain shouted,
As he staggered down the stairs.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by sweetandsour » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:14 am

sweetandsour wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:55 am
We're leaving in a few mins, to go to our evangelical church for worship and Bible study. AFAIK, there will be no Communion. No Lord's Supper, if you will. I sure wish we were, though.
Edit:. But three teenagers were baptised this mrng, and another came forward and asked to be baptised. Also, it was announced, Lord's Supper next Sunday mrng. A good day to be in church.
As thus we sat in darkness
Each one busy with his prayers,
"We are lost!" the captain shouted,
As he staggered down the stairs.

O love the Lord, all ye His saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful. Psalm 31:23

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.




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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:06 am

tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
Yes. If salvation were the only thing that Jesus wants us to have from him for our happiness, then it wouldn't matter.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
I believe he is trying to say that the Bible is content/context-free unless it is interpreted by the priesthood of the RCC. Of course, this denies all Scripture references that point out that Scripture is interpreted by the Spirit in a believer. This Scripture must be rejected by the RCC because it makes all believers part of the priesthood.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:16 am

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:06 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
Yes. If salvation were the only thing that Jesus wants us to have from him for our happiness, then it wouldn't matter.
Then what wouldn't matter? The system?

Also, salvation isn't just a coda. It's not just a tag on. It's the whole shebang. It is life and life abundant. A person is unable to experience the happiness Jesus has in store for him if he is dead.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:23 am

+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
I believe he is trying to say that the Bible is content/context-free unless it is interpreted by the priesthood of the RCC. Of course, this denies all Scripture references that point out that Scripture is interpreted by the Spirit in a believer. This Scripture must be rejected by the RCC because it makes all believers part of the priesthood.
But the rejection of this Scripture is just part of the "Romish system" upon which God's grace does not depend. Rejecting this Scripture certainly doesn't disqualify Catholics from being "part of the forest".

Right?




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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:37 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:23 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
I believe he is trying to say that the Bible is content/context-free unless it is interpreted by the priesthood of the RCC. Of course, this denies all Scripture references that point out that Scripture is interpreted by the Spirit in a believer. This Scripture must be rejected by the RCC because it makes all believers part of the priesthood.
But the rejection of this Scripture is just part of the "Romish system" upon which God's grace does not depend. Rejecting this Scripture certainly doesn't disqualify Catholics from being "part of the forest".

Right?
To keep with the illustration, and to be fair, when I made it I did say (in order to stay on topic) I wasn't going to mention the health of that part of the forest, but since we're broaching that here, it would be reasonable to conclude that while Protestants ought to recognize the Roman church as part of the forest, and even the part of the forest that seeded Protestantism, that we also view that part of the forest as no longer flourishing, and even quite twisted in some parts. Rejecting what Protestants are advocating doesn't disqualify Catholics from being part of the forest, but it does disqualify them as being Protestant (obvious) and from the Prot pov, the rejection, or the restricting itself from the essential source of life, has caused that portion of the wood to be unhealthy.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:46 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:37 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:23 am
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
I believe he is trying to say that the Bible is content/context-free unless it is interpreted by the priesthood of the RCC. Of course, this denies all Scripture references that point out that Scripture is interpreted by the Spirit in a believer. This Scripture must be rejected by the RCC because it makes all believers part of the priesthood.
But the rejection of this Scripture is just part of the "Romish system" upon which God's grace does not depend. Rejecting this Scripture certainly doesn't disqualify Catholics from being "part of the forest".

Right?
To keep with the illustration, and to be fair, when I made it I did say (in order to stay on topic) I wasn't going to mention the health of that part of the forest, but since we're broaching that here, it would be reasonable to conclude that while Protestants ought to recognize the Roman church as part of the forest, and even the part of the forest that seeded Protestantism, that we also view that part of the forest as no longer flourishing, and even quite twisted in some parts. Rejecting what Protestants are advocating doesn't disqualify Catholics from being part of the forest, but it does disqualify them as being Protestant (obvious) and from the Prot pov, the rejection, or the restricting itself from the essential source of life, has caused that portion of the wood to be unhealthy.
Does this mean that we can take it as established that — following Jester's lingo — "rejecting Scripture" is not enough to disqualify one from being "part of the forest"?




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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:47 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:23 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
I believe he is trying to say that the Bible is content/context-free unless it is interpreted by the priesthood of the RCC. Of course, this denies all Scripture references that point out that Scripture is interpreted by the Spirit in a believer. This Scripture must be rejected by the RCC because it makes all believers part of the priesthood.
But the rejection of this Scripture is just part of the "Romish system" upon which God's grace does not depend. Rejecting this Scripture certainly doesn't disqualify Catholics from being "part of the forest".

Right?
I believe Tuttle pointed out above that both systems are not perfect in following scripture. The RCC, on that note, has a scapegoat that says RCC trumps Scripture or can add to things that are not in Scripture.

We are all saved by grace alone through faith alone if we understand how we are saved or not. With that truth all denominations are in the same forest. My point was missed if you thought I was disqualifying Catholics. In fact my point was showing that Catholics are disqualifying everyone else. Catholics say that everyone else is "content/context-free" because only the priests of the Catholic church can interpret Scripture. Protestants say that all believers are priests and the Holy Spirit in them is able to interpret Scripture... Catholics who are not part of "the priesthood" included.
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When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

Every morning get alone with God and preach his Word into your mind until your heart sings with confidence that you are new and cared for. -John Piper

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:49 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:37 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:23 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
I believe he is trying to say that the Bible is content/context-free unless it is interpreted by the priesthood of the RCC. Of course, this denies all Scripture references that point out that Scripture is interpreted by the Spirit in a believer. This Scripture must be rejected by the RCC because it makes all believers part of the priesthood.
But the rejection of this Scripture is just part of the "Romish system" upon which God's grace does not depend. Rejecting this Scripture certainly doesn't disqualify Catholics from being "part of the forest".

Right?
To keep with the illustration, and to be fair, when I made it I did say (in order to stay on topic) I wasn't going to mention the health of that part of the forest, but since we're broaching that here, it would be reasonable to conclude that while Protestants ought to recognize the Roman church as part of the forest, and even the part of the forest that seeded Protestantism, that we also view that part of the forest as no longer flourishing, and even quite twisted in some parts. Rejecting what Protestants are advocating doesn't disqualify Catholics from being part of the forest, but it does disqualify them as being Protestant (obvious) and from the Prot pov, the rejection, or the restricting itself from the essential source of life, has caused that portion of the wood to be unhealthy.
Anybody know how to edit 2 more babies into that conversation of CodeMonkey's?
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:53 am

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All this because Winton decided to hand out the wine first. See what can happen when you do communion wrong!
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:56 am

Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:53 am
Off Topic
All this because Winton decided to hand out the wine first. See what can happen when you do communion wrong!
It's ok. It's been enlightening. I now know the Pater was quite right about Protestants.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:59 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:56 am
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:53 am
Off Topic
All this because Winton decided to hand out the wine first. See what can happen when you do communion wrong!
It's ok. It's been enlightening. I now know the Pater was quite right about Protestants.
I am not familiar with his opinion.
Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

Every morning get alone with God and preach his Word into your mind until your heart sings with confidence that you are new and cared for. -John Piper

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:02 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:46 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:37 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:23 am
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:49 am
This seems to track right back to what I'd said in the "Five Solas" thread about Protestantism being a "content-free" faith, in which Sola Scriptura functions as nothing more than a limit-concept — a cipher.

Now, my evaluation in that thread was something which Jester had seemed to contest, but in contrast, your line of thought certainly seems to be heading in the direction I'd indicated.
Would you mind explaining your thoughts about this a little more? I'm not sure which direction you are indicating. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Protestantism being a 'content-free' faith.
I believe he is trying to say that the Bible is content/context-free unless it is interpreted by the priesthood of the RCC. Of course, this denies all Scripture references that point out that Scripture is interpreted by the Spirit in a believer. This Scripture must be rejected by the RCC because it makes all believers part of the priesthood.
But the rejection of this Scripture is just part of the "Romish system" upon which God's grace does not depend. Rejecting this Scripture certainly doesn't disqualify Catholics from being "part of the forest".

Right?
To keep with the illustration, and to be fair, when I made it I did say (in order to stay on topic) I wasn't going to mention the health of that part of the forest, but since we're broaching that here, it would be reasonable to conclude that while Protestants ought to recognize the Roman church as part of the forest, and even the part of the forest that seeded Protestantism, that we also view that part of the forest as no longer flourishing, and even quite twisted in some parts. Rejecting what Protestants are advocating doesn't disqualify Catholics from being part of the forest, but it does disqualify them as being Protestant (obvious) and from the Prot pov, the rejection, or the restricting itself from the essential source of life, has caused that portion of the wood to be unhealthy.
Does this mean that we can take it as established that — following Jester's lingo — "rejecting Scripture" is not enough to disqualify one from being "part of the forest"?
I guess it depends on what you mean by disqualifying some group from being part of the forest... I don't know if the analogy is able to go that far. Parts of the forest might die. If that is a disqualification, I'd say that Protestants aren't the ones claiming they've disqualified Catholics. I don't know what specifically Jester is getting at, but generally he's right in the fact that Protestants aren't the ones doing the disqualifying. Besides, I thought that was one of the arguments Catholics had against Protestants.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:11 am

Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:59 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:56 am
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:53 am
Off Topic
All this because Winton decided to hand out the wine first. See what can happen when you do communion wrong!
It's ok. It's been enlightening. I now know the Pater was quite right about Protestants.
I am not familiar with his opinion.
You wouldn't like it. I think his best line is that a Protestant and a Catholic can never be truly friends because they each know the other is a fool whose judgment cannot be trusted. Or a Protestant would if he could keep thinking the same thing long enough. :lol:
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:54 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:16 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:06 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:28 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".
I don't resort to the qualification, but lean on exactly what I said. Christ forgives sinners lock, stock, and barrel without any catch. It is an astounding grace. If you want to word it like that, yes. Jesus saves Catholics despite their membership in the Romish system. But he also saves Baptists despite their Fundamentalist system. Because his grace doesn't depend upon a system.
Yes. If salvation were the only thing that Jesus wants us to have from him for our happiness, then it wouldn't matter.
Then what wouldn't matter? The system?

Also, salvation isn't just a coda. It's not just a tag on. It's the whole shebang. It is life and life abundant. A person is unable to experience the happiness Jesus has in store for him if he is dead.
Sin is "that which separates us from God."

Salvation is forgiveness of that sin. Salvation is "that which restores our relationship with God."

One can have a saving relationship with God and still just barely know Him. Perhaps one has read about Jesus in the Scripture, and even prayed a sincere prayer of offering oneself to Jesus. This is adequate for salvation, but Jesus wants more for us.

He wants us to know His friends, His family, His Mother and for us to have relationships with them now, as we will in Heaven.

Jesus wants us to receive the reality of His body and blood, and not just as a spiritual thing. He wants to part of us now, as He will be in heaven.

Jesus also wants us to have the fullness of Truth, the truth that sets us free. He wants us to know the Scriptures, and he wants us to know what the Apostles knew as they wrote the Scriptures. Indeed He expects us to understand more deeply than the Apostles did, as His Holy Spirit has been guiding us for 2000 years.

Collectively, the truth of divine teaching, the conduits of sanctifying grace, and the fellowship of all Christians (on earth and in heaven) is known to us as Christ's "Church." Jesus also spoke of it often as the "Kingdom of God." It is the Way, the Truth, and the Life that Jesus spoke of.... His Church is the means for us to participate in Him. It is no surprise that the Church in Acts 2 referred to themselves as "The Way."

Perhaps it helps to look at salvation as a process.
- The first step of salvation is some decision of will to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
- The ongoing process of salvation is to live obediently to His commands, and enter into all of these things -- which Christ has given us -- that draw us closer to Him.
- The final end of salvation is death, judgment, and hopefully eternity with Him.
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