FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

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FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:29 am

The FDA issued their case for regulating OTP in April. Pipe tobacco is included because it belongs to the OTP class. This is not the regulations so nothing has changed. You have time to consider what you will do.

Pipe tobacco does NOT fare well in this FDA publication.

I think it's enough that the case for cellaring some tobaccos is quite reasonable and you should look at it. You have some time to do this. We're at least a year away from actual regulation in place and products that may possibly be in trouble are likely a little further out. And just to be clear, the types of PT that I think may be threatened are:

1) Flavoured & significantly sweetened Pipe tobaccos
2) Products introduced or reintroduced to sales after Feb 15, 2007.

This applies to domestic as well as imports.

What is the FDA's case?

1) Harmful
They assert that pipe smoking is harmful, even at low levels less than 3 bowls per day. They cite references to support the claim. Pipe tobacco is more harmful than cigar smoking according to the FDA. After reading it they're effectively suggesting that it's second to cigarettes in harm.

2) Growing Fast
They claim that pipe smoking has increased 482% between 2000 & 2011. It's the fastest growing smoking tobacco cigarette alternative according to them.

3) Attracts the Young to smoking
In the FDA's case pipe tobacco is grouped with small cigars and hookah tobacco and attracts the 18-24 year old new smokers because of the sweet flavoured tobaccos. They actually have survey results that back this up.

The three claims together suggest that pipe tobacco may not get a pass this time as just a minor hobbyist's interest. However, they may be exaggerating their case since this is about justifying FDA regulation of each of OTP class. But I think there is good reason to consider protecting what you have.

Last, there is onerous manufacturer & importer overhead in dealing with the FDA. This is spelled out in the document. Nobody regulated can introduce a new tobacco product for sale in the US without getting FDA authorization to do so. That doesn't just affect products new next year. That affects every new pipe tobacco product introduced or reintroduced after Feb. 15, 2007. In addition to whatever else the manufacturers & importers have to do, it is proposed that they will have 24 mo. after the FDA regulation is active to get FDA approval to market & sell products introduced after Feb. 15, 2007. Otherwise the products are no longer authorized for distribution & sales.

So where is the FDA document?

The announcement is from an FDA Blog in April -

http://blogs.fda.gov/fdavoice/index.php ... authority/

And the FDA proposal to regulate went into the Federal Register (at 280 pages!). Here is a PDF ref, for the FDA proposal soliciting feedback from interested stakeholders.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspect ... -09491.pdf

While it is a big doc. you might at least search for & read around the 60 or so statements about pipe tobacco, pipe tobacco manufacturers & importers. Search for pipe in your PDF reader.

I haven't asked any of the usual manufacturers for their opinion yet. They're probably still digesting the document and trying to assess it. This is likely the first warning to pipe smokers. We may see more from pipes magazine in the future.
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Post by coco » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:12 pm

Could a REAL mod please sticky this?

REAL Mod: Sure!
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Post by revspipes » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:33 pm

well as long as I can still get my medical marijuana delivered to my home I am happy

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Post by FredS » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:45 pm

Rev brings up an interesting point. Though the sale and use of marijuana is technically illegal (but not really enforced) by federal law, many states are passing laws to legalize it locally. I doubt that any state would do it, but I suppose they could enact similar laws for tobacco sale & use should it be banned by the feds. That's not to say that any of the states laws could pass muster in federal court if they were adjudicated, but it's interesting to think about.
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Post by Rusty » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:03 pm

While I don't object to making it a sticky thread. People really should look at the big document. This is really the end game for the FDA and they capture all tobacco in this effort. ....Except, maybe, premium cigars.

There is some interesting politics evident already. The IPCPR (RTDA successor) have been working with the FDA and they've built in two options which the FDA is presenting in the document. One regulates everything. The other option excludes premium cigars from regulation. Neither does anything for pipe tobacco. I think their understanding of pipe smoking and pipe tobaccos is incorrect.

Here is a quote that you really need to see:
on pg 38-39, the FDA wrote:The International Premium Cigar and Pipe Retailers Association (IPCPRA), in its citizen petition seeking to exempt large and premium cigars from FDA regulation, acknowledged that a premium, hand-rolled cigar may be a "tobacco product" under the Act, but "there is no evidence to suggest that it carries anywhere near the public health risks of a cigarette." (FDA-2011-P-0623). Therefore, they claim that premium cigarsare not a public health problem requiring FDA regulation.

To support this argument, the IPCPRA notesthat NCI has remarked about the dose response relationship between the numbers of cigars smoked and the risk of disease, stating that "as many as three-quarters of cigar smokers smoke only occasionally … [and t]his difference in frequency of exposure translates into lower disease]." (id.). In addition, they note that the health risk tables in NCI's Monograph No. 9 refer to those who smoke 1-2 cigars per day and, therefore, the NCI Monograph does not even provide health risk data for the 75 percent majority of smokers who NCI identifies as "occasional" cigar smokers. They also state that "smokers of 1-2 cigars per day are at no greater risk statistically… for risk of numerous cancers, coronary heart disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), and cerebrovascular disease."
How is pipe smoking different and why isn't the IPCPR asserting the same argument for pipe smokers & pipe tobacco? The FDA shows that they do not understand (or are willfully ignorant) that three bowls per day isn't the light end of pipe smoking. A few bowls per month is the light end. And the CDC figures for the 482% growth did not even ack that RYO was being labeled as pipe tobacco. So that figure is highly suspect too. The 'quit' rate with pipes is likely much higher than with cigars. pipes have always had a high attrition among new pipe smokers. And the market trend before 2008 has been well documented. So a lot of people quit. There's a story here that is not being told.

This does not bode well for pipe tobacco. I was angry after I read the whole thing. It looks like pipe tobacco is being sacrificed.
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Post by Kerdy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:11 pm

At some point the American people really need to poke a thumb in the eye of Big Brother, tell them to get bent and stay out of areas they should not be engaged. Then, America goes and does what needs to be done ignoring the over inflated, arrogance of Big Brother. If we as a nation ever did this, we could solve our debt problems, our employment problems, and a lot of other problems.

There are, after all, more of us than there are of them. Hey, federal gubment, do what the Constitution states you are supposed to do, nothing else, nothing more, nothing less, and get off our backs. Eventually, the playground bully gets the crap beat out of him by the rest of the kids. Keep that in mind.
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Post by SlowToke » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:21 pm

With the government having a bigger hand in healthcare you can expect much worse. Brace yourselves folks. A storms a comin'.
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Post by FredS » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:11 pm

SlowToke wrote:With the government having a bigger hand in healthcare you can expect much worse. Brace yourselves folks. A storms a comin'.
Yes, of course. Tobacco is a low hanging fruit because most Americans think it's a universally bad (deadly even) product. Trans fat will probably be next (we've already seen some early attempts at prohibition). Then other food items which increase 'bad' cholesterol. My only hope is that I die before Taco Johns bean burritos are outlawed.
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Post by DAN » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:27 pm

So help me..! :evil:
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Post by Rusty » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:33 pm

This place should be called ChristianSocialCommentary.net. Everything is worth social commentary at least. But it's like a million other comments.

But what are you going to do?

Wake up. It's early on this one. Nothing is done & nothing has happened yet. The submission period is open for comments on that proposal. There is lots of warning. We have yet to talk to the manufacturers (as a sanity check at least) to see what they make of it and who is doing what to whom. Plus we really should burn somebody.

It's not really social commentary time until you've lost. Nothing is lost yet. The fat lady is still a child taking singing lessons. Are you planning on whining until it's too late?

The FDA is very slow but very thorough. They're like steamroller. One can alter their path... maybe. And they've been given tobacco by legislation. So any misrepresentations that encourage going after a small market product really needs correction.
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Post by Kerdy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:00 pm

If they relabel it as medicinal/recreational marijuana (but keep it pipe tobacco) the government will provide money and campaign for its use. They don't really research MJ anyway so it would be decades before they realized its just pipe tobacco. Just an idea.

Maybe I'll buy a few acres and start cultivating it for tobacco and turning it into Latakia American tobacco. Keep what I want, "give the rest away" so it's not being "sold".
Last edited by Kerdy on Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gravel » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:06 pm

Thank you for bringing this to our attention Rusty. I'll check out the linked document.

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Post by Kirk1701 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:28 am

I have my concerns that anyone can change the FDA's mind about tobacco. If something can potentially kill you, then it's automatically bad for you and must be banned. They are a black and white organization. All doctor's associations are, really. Of course they're endgame is to ban tobacco completely. It pisses me off too.

The question for me is, how to you make a case for allowing something that's only "sorta harmful?" There is no degree of harm for doctors.
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Post by Kerdy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:53 pm

Kirk1701 wrote:I have my concerns that anyone can change the FDA's mind about tobacco. If something can potentially kill you, then it's automatically bad for you and must be banned. They are a black and white organization. All doctor's associations are, really. Of course they're endgame is to ban tobacco completely. It pisses me off too.

The question for me is, how to you make a case for allowing something that's only "sorta harmful?" There is no degree of harm for doctors.
The problem is, everything can potentially kill you. Are they going to ban food because some people eat too much, become really super fat and die from heart attacks? Are they going to ban water because it could be contaminated or someone may drink too much, or pools because people drown? That's it, let's make the ocean illegal. What about heat and cold? They can do terrible things to a persons health. Oh, and old age. People die from being old all the time. Let’s make old age and weather changes illegal. They are already working on weather changes and blaming stuff we can’t control on us, just make it illegal. Then we can all go to prison. Oh, but prison is bad for the psyche and may cause someone to hurt themselves or someone may get shanked in prison, so those are illegal as well. I got it, okay, it took me a minute, but I figured it out. Follow the story line of the movie Noah. People are the problem. Let's get rid of people.

What is really taking place is politics, nothing more, nothing less. When "smoking kills", but smoking pot is encouraged, there is something wrong and until the latter is appropriately labeled, I honestly don't care what the "intellectuals" have to say about tobacco. Our nation is run by halfwits at best and evil manipulators at worst. I suppose this is what modern education results in...people who believe anything other than what makes sense. Until things make sense, smoke, drink, talk openly about Jesus, call sin a sin, speak truth and worry not what comes from the mouths of the clouded minds.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by SmokinGordon » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:21 pm

When I grow up, I want to look like Mrs. Coco's grandpa. :D
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by serapion » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:30 pm

There's a link there to comment to the FDA on your opinion of the proposed regulation.
I went ahead and commented.
Maybe you should too.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by SmokinGordon » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:57 pm

serapion wrote:
There's a link there to comment to the FDA on your opinion of the proposed regulation.
I went ahead and commented.
Maybe you should too.
I have done so. Just leaving the link here for others to use.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by JudgeRusty » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:11 pm

SmokinGordon wrote:
serapion wrote:
There's a link there to comment to the FDA on your opinion of the proposed regulation.
I went ahead and commented.
Maybe you should too.
I have done so. Just leaving the link here for others to use.
Done. I edited their suggested language a bit (lawyer in me).
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by DAN » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:30 pm

I commented there. I commented on Facebook. I'll soon be writing my elected representatives.

And in the meantime, since I by golly have enough pipes, I'm going to try to order a pound of tobacco for cellaring every six weeks, or more often if I get the OT.

And I'll order tobacco seeds for planting next spring. Not that I expect the tobacco to be all that great, but the whole thing just irks my soul so bad, I'll cover the whole back yard in tobacco plants just to make a point.

I get sick of this. The more I learn about tobacco and disease, the more I'm convinced that while smoking those FOULIN' cigarettes can't POSSIBLY be good for you, at least if inhaled, moderate cigar and/or pipe smoking has a chance of hurting you so low that in most people, it simply isn't worth worrying about.

And who has the opportunity to smoke immoderately these days? How? in my case, I cannot smoke in the house (asthmatic wife); I cannot smoke at work; I cannot smoke in my work vehicle; God knows I cannot smoke whilst shopping at Wal-Mart.

I mean, really: where the shale am I supposed to find the time to smoke enough to do myself some harm? I have a hard time getting through more than a bowl and a half (if that) every day.

I read something--I believe it was on JR Cigars website--saying that the cigar industry estimated that the average cigar smoker smoked 1-3 cigars a week. And judging from what I've read of most of you, precious few of you smoke more than four bowls a day and a lot of you don't come close to smoking that much.

It's just foulin' ridiculous, just an excuse to jack up taxes and put thumbs in the eyes of people who aren't doing anyone any harm.

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Del » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:04 pm

If my cellar of pipe tobacco suddenly increases in value by a factor of 10.... I'll quit smoking and turn to peddling.
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