FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

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Rusty
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:23 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:FDA Loses Lawsuit Over Tobacco Labeling Changes

It is interesting they lost that part of the litigation. In any case, the more important litigations are what I'm watching for.
The FDA lose a lot of them. This suggests that they are intentionally aggressive and encouraged to be so to the point that it goes to court.

"substantial equivalence, a process of FDA approval that is expected to cost upwards of $20,000 per individual cigar due to legal and testing fees"

Substantial equivalence applies to all of the PT blends introduced or reintroduced after Feb. 2007, and the costs cited will mean that we will likely lose most of them. I rather doubt that the PT market & the companies are large enough to accept those per product costs. Of course if the suit brought by the IPCPR and others is won then it may change things. We can only hope.

The other gray area unknown today by us is the overhead imposed by the FDA and its affects on retail product cost and product packaging. So for example bulk may no longer exist at the price points with the packaging it has today. That kind of thing may tip the market back into a long decline because it's no longer affordable by many so the market begins shrinking. It's all speculative today but one only has to look at the state of the market in other countries with much higher taxes/prices.
I found the $20,000 estimate above the be better than the hundreds of thousands we've heard thus far. It's still a very high number, yes, but it is at least somewhat more manageable than $200,000. Who knows what the actual cost will be at this point though.
Well there is a way to defeat all this. But the FDA probably won't go along. They have 2 years to fight with them and visit court.
The problem with all the product specific SE's is that it limits the number of products, increases costs, and there is likely terrific duplication. It prevents new products. Even at $20K per product with 10 products it's $200K and that ends up being a cost applied across the product line which inflates costs across the board.

Imagine instead that the industry gets together and funds and submits one SE for a generic tobacco that is the superset of all pipe tobaccos with all permissible casings and all permissible toppings. Then every specific product from any manufacturer is a trivial subset of the generic superset and can be approved with an SE exception short form that refers to the the big SE.

Tm = T1, T2, T3, ....Tn; are all tobaccos in all forms in any linear combination to form a product
Tc = T1*c1+T2*c2....+Tn*cn; any combination of permitted casings subject to concentration rules
Tf = {f1,f2,f3,f4,...fn} x Tc; any combination of permitted toppings subject to concentration rules
Ln = any combination of alpha numerics as product name, and the FDA can exclude strings they don't like
Pn = allowed packaging options.

Every manufacturer's product is a trivial subset of the generic superset which has an SE and therefore it's a paper check to obtain and SE exemption for any manufacturer's product. The manufacturers all contribute money to fund the SE. There is only one SE.

It's equivalent to an approved additive list with rules of concentration applied to any combination of tobaccos, as for example the Brits have. New product introduction again becomes realistic.

Done.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by wsblevins » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:48 am

Welcome to Communist America.


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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by hugodrax » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:29 pm

I've never been to the Ozarks.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by JimVH » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:14 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:29 pm
I've never been to the Ozarks.
I heart the Ozarks. It's where I'd live if I had to leave Texas.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by JMG » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:29 pm

JimVH wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:29 pm
I've never been to the Ozarks.
I heart the Ozarks. It's where I'd live if I had to leave Texas.
I used to live in the Ozarks when I was training with our organization...Roach, MO. Much prettier than it sounds.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by UncleBob » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:02 pm

JimVH wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:29 pm
I've never been to the Ozarks.
I heart the Ozarks. It's where I'd live if I had to leave Texas.
Yep
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by wsblevins » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:08 pm

Well, tonight we're under another ice storm warning, so it has its negative elements.


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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Fainn » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:27 pm

Legislation introduced to change the deeming date for cigars to August 8, 2016http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatu ... date-19243
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:30 am

Fainn wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:27 pm
Legislation introduced to change the deeming date for cigars to August 8, 2016http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatu ... date-19243
The language, as always, is very ambiguous as to what would be included within the bill. Just cigars, or are vape liquids, pipe tobacco, and the like included?
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:14 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:30 am
Fainn wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:27 pm
Legislation introduced to change the deeming date for cigars to August 8, 2016http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatu ... date-19243
The language, as always, is very ambiguous as to what would be included within the bill. Just cigars, or are vape liquids, pipe tobacco, and the like included?
When the language is available the following link will have it... (there is no text for the bill yet).

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-con ... /1136/text

Just as speculation I would guess that it includes all tobacco products that were covered in the deeming rule ie all OTP. The vaping stuff is a big bugaboo for the FDA. They've already been battling that industry for quite a while. Theoretically it could almost go away altogether under the current rules. The lobbyists for all of those companies are doin' the two-step as fast as they can.

It's a very good idea if they can pass it. It means that a lot of our goodies would be saved. And it is likely the only place that the date can be changed.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by calvinistanglican » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:06 pm

So clicking on that link I see that it must pass through President Trump...he's a bit of a wild card....think he could veto this thing?

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Del » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:31 pm

wsblevins wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:08 pm
Well, tonight we're under another ice storm warning, so it has its negative elements.
Ice storms.... How we tell the difference between Heaven and the Ozarks.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:30 pm

calvinistanglican wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:06 pm
So clicking on that link I see that it must pass through President Trump...he's a bit of a wild card....think he could veto this thing?
Most bills die in the technical committees of congress. And if it gets through that then it has to pass with a majority in Congress and maybe the Senate too. If it can be pitched as anti-Mexican, anti-Muslim, and pro the disaffected in America then I'm sure Trump will sign it. Otherwise I think he's unpredictable. But it may never get that far. Keep making that list. 19 months to go.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:38 pm

Rusty wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:30 pm
calvinistanglican wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:06 pm
So clicking on that link I see that it must pass through President Trump...he's a bit of a wild card....think he could veto this thing?
Most bills die in the technical committees of congress. And if it gets through that then it has to pass with a majority in Congress and maybe the Senate too. If it can be pitched as anti-Mexican, anti-Muslim, and pro the disaffected in America then I'm sure Trump will sign it. Otherwise I think he's unpredictable. But it may never get that far. Keep making that list. 19 months to go.
I've only got a few more blends to buy and then my list is complete.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by mustangii » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:41 pm

JMG wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:29 pm
JimVH wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:29 pm
I've never been to the Ozarks.
I heart the Ozarks. It's where I'd live if I had to leave Texas.
I used to live in the Ozarks when I was training with our organization...Roach, MO. Much prettier than it sounds.
Windermere? New Tribes Mission? I Graduated from Camdenton HS and Lived about 6 Miles From there after Judy and I were Married. That was in the late 70s though.

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