FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:41 pm

durangopipe wrote:
eg attractiveness to youth and others
"And others" is pretty vague.
So the new regs are going to require pipes to be ugly?

I'm trying to keep laughing here, Rusty.
You're making that harder to do.
You think it's funny? They require that new tobacco products a) benefit the health of Americans and b) not be attractive to youth. And in any case require the authorization of the FDA to go to market.
I've got a) covered, we can find a volunteer to smoke it and so keep it away from all Americans. b) is tougher.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:51 pm

Rusty wrote:
durangopipe wrote:
eg attractiveness to youth and others
"And others" is pretty vague.
So the new regs are going to require pipes to be ugly?

I'm trying to keep laughing here, Rusty.
You're making that harder to do.
You think it's funny? They require that new tobacco products a) benefit the health of Americans and b) not be attractive to youth. And in any case require the authorization of the FDA to go to market.
I've got a) covered, we can find a volunteer to smoke it and so keep it away from all Americans. b) is tougher.
Buyin' pipes and 'baccy!
(Two recent purchases in the mock document.)
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

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Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by coco » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:11 pm

durangopipe wrote:So the new regs are going to require pipes to be ugly?...
Yep. Cobs only.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Fainn » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:23 pm

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:22 pm

coco wrote:
durangopipe wrote:So the new regs are going to require pipes to be ugly?...
Yep. Cobs only.
Must be part of the ethanol lobby.
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

J.R.R. Tolkien



Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

Roderick Haig-Brown

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by hugodrax » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:21 pm

durangopipe wrote:
coco wrote:
durangopipe wrote:So the new regs are going to require pipes to be ugly?...
Yep. Cobs only.
Must be part of the ethanol lobby.
Careful, those boys are scary stupid.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:12 pm

Straight from The Standard Tobacco Company of Pennsylvania's Facebook:
Buy It While You Can

With the FDA Deeming Regulations poised to take effect in about two weeks, I have some sobering news for our friends. Unless something changes, there will not be another production run on the 5 original Standard Tobacco Co. of PA blends. Once the current inventory of War Horse, Bengal Slices and John Cotton's is sold, there will be no more. Ever.
I've held off making this announcement until I was certain that the end is near. August 8, 2018 is the cut-off date for selling post 2007 blends such as ours without an FDA Substantial Equivalence (SE) approval. Since it now appears highly unlikely that we will get an SE, and since our distributor does not want to get stuck with product that they can not sell, their plan is to sell out existing stock and not re-order.
Caveat: If we sell out of everything quickly, the distributor might change their mind and do another run, but that is doubtful given the glut of new, last ditch blends clogging up production and warehouse space. Also, if the FDA is forced by congress to change the grandfather date to include post 2007 blends such as ours, then we are free to continue production. That, however, is exceedingly unlikely at this point in time.
I can't tell you how sad and disappointed I am to have to tell you this. It's not where we wanted to be at this point in time, but I wanted to give you all the opportunity to order your favorites before it's too late.
-Dan
This was posted elsewhere:
Dear friends of Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania,

There has been much discussion on various forums about the future of Standard Tobacco and its blends. To paraphrase Mark Twain, the news of our impending demise is premature.

I want to empathetically say that Standard Tobacco fully intends to soldier on through these uncertain times and we look forward to bringing new and exciting blends to market in the coming weeks. There are new blends under the Dobie’s and Murray’s names now available for pre-order on the P&C website (type in the names in their search engine). Dobie’s and Murray’s have been in the planning process for several months. Also, we will be seeing the finished War Horse Bar and War Horse Green this week in anticipation of putting them on the P&C site before August 8.

Regarding the existing Standard Tobacco blends, we remain committed to the John Cotton, Bengal Slices and War Horse Ready Rubbed blends. However, at the end of the day this is a business for all concerned parties. Sales of our John Cotton blends have not been as robust as we had hoped so there are inventories yet to be drawn down. Nothing insures continuance like a full order book. That being said our partners at P&C remain supportive and committed to the success of the Standard Tobacco lines.

Navigating the labyrinth of the new FDA Deeming regulations is daunting to say the least and no one can say with absolute certainty what the final outcome will be. So, we will continue with our business as usual while hoping that some positive changes for our industry will be resolved in the near future.

Finally, to our customers and friends in the pipe community, we want to thank you for your overwhelming support and kindness. Standard Tobacco was born from a dream and a “what if we did this” conversation. Much hard work went into faithfully re-creating the blends we have today. This work came from a love of the hobby and a willingness to share with others. We intend to stay true to those principles and continue to fight for rights of all pipe smokers to make informed decisions about their personal lives.

John Fruhmann
CEO-Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:35 pm

Joshoowah wrote:Straight from The Standard Tobacco Company of Pennsylvania's Facebook:
Buy It While You Can

With the FDA Deeming Regulations poised to take effect in about two weeks, I have some sobering news for our friends. Unless something changes, there will not be another production run on the 5 original Standard Tobacco Co. of PA blends. Once the current inventory of War Horse, Bengal Slices and John Cotton's is sold, there will be no more. Ever.
I've held off making this announcement until I was certain that the end is near. August 8, 2018 is the cut-off date for selling post 2007 blends such as ours without an FDA Substantial Equivalence (SE) approval. Since it now appears highly unlikely that we will get an SE, and since our distributor does not want to get stuck with product that they can not sell, their plan is to sell out existing stock and not re-order.
Caveat: If we sell out of everything quickly, the distributor might change their mind and do another run, but that is doubtful given the glut of new, last ditch blends clogging up production and warehouse space. Also, if the FDA is forced by congress to change the grandfather date to include post 2007 blends such as ours, then we are free to continue production. That, however, is exceedingly unlikely at this point in time.
I can't tell you how sad and disappointed I am to have to tell you this. It's not where we wanted to be at this point in time, but I wanted to give you all the opportunity to order your favorites before it's too late.
-Dan
This was posted elsewhere:
Dear friends of Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania,

There has been much discussion on various forums about the future of Standard Tobacco and its blends. To paraphrase Mark Twain, the news of our impending demise is premature.

I want to empathetically say that Standard Tobacco fully intends to soldier on through these uncertain times and we look forward to bringing new and exciting blends to market in the coming weeks. There are new blends under the Dobie’s and Murray’s names now available for pre-order on the P&C website (type in the names in their search engine). Dobie’s and Murray’s have been in the planning process for several months. Also, we will be seeing the finished War Horse Bar and War Horse Green this week in anticipation of putting them on the P&C site before August 8.

Regarding the existing Standard Tobacco blends, we remain committed to the John Cotton, Bengal Slices and War Horse Ready Rubbed blends. However, at the end of the day this is a business for all concerned parties. Sales of our John Cotton blends have not been as robust as we had hoped so there are inventories yet to be drawn down. Nothing insures continuance like a full order book. That being said our partners at P&C remain supportive and committed to the success of the Standard Tobacco lines.

Navigating the labyrinth of the new FDA Deeming regulations is daunting to say the least and no one can say with absolute certainty what the final outcome will be. So, we will continue with our business as usual while hoping that some positive changes for our industry will be resolved in the near future.

Finally, to our customers and friends in the pipe community, we want to thank you for your overwhelming support and kindness. Standard Tobacco was born from a dream and a “what if we did this” conversation. Much hard work went into faithfully re-creating the blends we have today. This work came from a love of the hobby and a willingness to share with others. We intend to stay true to those principles and continue to fight for rights of all pipe smokers to make informed decisions about their personal lives.

John Fruhmann
CEO-Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania
That interpretation ("Buy it while you can" - "August 8, 2018 is the cut-off date for selling post 2007 blends such as ours without an FDA Substantial Equivalence (SE) approval") is NOT consistent with the FDA deeming regulation.
Companies cannot introduce new blends to market after Aug. 8th without approval but all blends introduced before the deeming rule came into force, and after Feb. 15, 2007, have 24 months from the deeming rule coming into force for seeking FDA SE approval (or whatever) and they remain on the market for the entire 24 mos. The FDA is expecting that some of the approvals will go through multiple tries and they're not enforcing any product exits from the market for the full 24 mos. So what are the pirates doing? El Crappo rises again only to threaten suicide. We're not impressed. Who is their distributor; let me guess... STG?

Where is Les?
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:41 pm

Rusty wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:Straight from The Standard Tobacco Company of Pennsylvania's Facebook:
Buy It While You Can

With the FDA Deeming Regulations poised to take effect in about two weeks, I have some sobering news for our friends. Unless something changes, there will not be another production run on the 5 original Standard Tobacco Co. of PA blends. Once the current inventory of War Horse, Bengal Slices and John Cotton's is sold, there will be no more. Ever.
I've held off making this announcement until I was certain that the end is near. August 8, 2018 is the cut-off date for selling post 2007 blends such as ours without an FDA Substantial Equivalence (SE) approval. Since it now appears highly unlikely that we will get an SE, and since our distributor does not want to get stuck with product that they can not sell, their plan is to sell out existing stock and not re-order.
Caveat: If we sell out of everything quickly, the distributor might change their mind and do another run, but that is doubtful given the glut of new, last ditch blends clogging up production and warehouse space. Also, if the FDA is forced by congress to change the grandfather date to include post 2007 blends such as ours, then we are free to continue production. That, however, is exceedingly unlikely at this point in time.
I can't tell you how sad and disappointed I am to have to tell you this. It's not where we wanted to be at this point in time, but I wanted to give you all the opportunity to order your favorites before it's too late.
-Dan
This was posted elsewhere:
Dear friends of Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania,

There has been much discussion on various forums about the future of Standard Tobacco and its blends. To paraphrase Mark Twain, the news of our impending demise is premature.

I want to empathetically say that Standard Tobacco fully intends to soldier on through these uncertain times and we look forward to bringing new and exciting blends to market in the coming weeks. There are new blends under the Dobie’s and Murray’s names now available for pre-order on the P&C website (type in the names in their search engine). Dobie’s and Murray’s have been in the planning process for several months. Also, we will be seeing the finished War Horse Bar and War Horse Green this week in anticipation of putting them on the P&C site before August 8.

Regarding the existing Standard Tobacco blends, we remain committed to the John Cotton, Bengal Slices and War Horse Ready Rubbed blends. However, at the end of the day this is a business for all concerned parties. Sales of our John Cotton blends have not been as robust as we had hoped so there are inventories yet to be drawn down. Nothing insures continuance like a full order book. That being said our partners at P&C remain supportive and committed to the success of the Standard Tobacco lines.

Navigating the labyrinth of the new FDA Deeming regulations is daunting to say the least and no one can say with absolute certainty what the final outcome will be. So, we will continue with our business as usual while hoping that some positive changes for our industry will be resolved in the near future.

Finally, to our customers and friends in the pipe community, we want to thank you for your overwhelming support and kindness. Standard Tobacco was born from a dream and a “what if we did this” conversation. Much hard work went into faithfully re-creating the blends we have today. This work came from a love of the hobby and a willingness to share with others. We intend to stay true to those principles and continue to fight for rights of all pipe smokers to make informed decisions about their personal lives.

John Fruhmann
CEO-Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania
That interpretation ("Buy it while you can" - "August 8, 2018 is the cut-off date for selling post 2007 blends such as ours without an FDA Substantial Equivalence (SE) approval") is NOT consistent with the FDA deeming regulation.
Companies cannot introduce new blends to market after Aug. 8th without approval but all blends introduced before the deeming rule came into force, and after Feb. 15, 2007, have 24 months from the deeming rule coming into force for seeking FDA SE approval (or whatever) and they remain on the market for the entire 24 mos. The FDA is expecting that some of the approvals will go through multiple tries and they're not enforcing any product exits from the market for the full 24 mos. So what are the pirates doing? El Crappo rises again only to threaten suicide. We're not impressed. Who is their distributor; let me guess... STG?

Where is Les?
Yeah, I just posted them for edification. It's confusing to me, as, like you, I was under the impression there was a 2-year grace period. The issue, at least to me, is the problem of them having no one to sell it. I'm guessing P&C has told them they'll stop selling it, with perhaps Smokingpipes doing the same. P&C has been sending out notes in their newsletters and their e-mails about removing a lot of their blends from the market by December. Perhaps these guys know something we don't just yet.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:09 pm

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How much more of this will we tolerate before we've had enough? Pipes, religion, guns and you name it, they are domesticating us in their zoo.

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:20 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:Straight from The Standard Tobacco Company of Pennsylvania's Facebook:
Buy It While You Can

With the FDA Deeming Regulations poised to take effect in about two weeks, I have some sobering news for our friends. Unless something changes, there will not be another production run on the 5 original Standard Tobacco Co. of PA blends. Once the current inventory of War Horse, Bengal Slices and John Cotton's is sold, there will be no more. Ever.
I've held off making this announcement until I was certain that the end is near. August 8, 2018 is the cut-off date for selling post 2007 blends such as ours without an FDA Substantial Equivalence (SE) approval. Since it now appears highly unlikely that we will get an SE, and since our distributor does not want to get stuck with product that they can not sell, their plan is to sell out existing stock and not re-order.
Caveat: If we sell out of everything quickly, the distributor might change their mind and do another run, but that is doubtful given the glut of new, last ditch blends clogging up production and warehouse space. Also, if the FDA is forced by congress to change the grandfather date to include post 2007 blends such as ours, then we are free to continue production. That, however, is exceedingly unlikely at this point in time.
I can't tell you how sad and disappointed I am to have to tell you this. It's not where we wanted to be at this point in time, but I wanted to give you all the opportunity to order your favorites before it's too late.
-Dan
This was posted elsewhere:
Dear friends of Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania,

There has been much discussion on various forums about the future of Standard Tobacco and its blends. To paraphrase Mark Twain, the news of our impending demise is premature.

I want to empathetically say that Standard Tobacco fully intends to soldier on through these uncertain times and we look forward to bringing new and exciting blends to market in the coming weeks. There are new blends under the Dobie’s and Murray’s names now available for pre-order on the P&C website (type in the names in their search engine). Dobie’s and Murray’s have been in the planning process for several months. Also, we will be seeing the finished War Horse Bar and War Horse Green this week in anticipation of putting them on the P&C site before August 8.

Regarding the existing Standard Tobacco blends, we remain committed to the John Cotton, Bengal Slices and War Horse Ready Rubbed blends. However, at the end of the day this is a business for all concerned parties. Sales of our John Cotton blends have not been as robust as we had hoped so there are inventories yet to be drawn down. Nothing insures continuance like a full order book. That being said our partners at P&C remain supportive and committed to the success of the Standard Tobacco lines.

Navigating the labyrinth of the new FDA Deeming regulations is daunting to say the least and no one can say with absolute certainty what the final outcome will be. So, we will continue with our business as usual while hoping that some positive changes for our industry will be resolved in the near future.

Finally, to our customers and friends in the pipe community, we want to thank you for your overwhelming support and kindness. Standard Tobacco was born from a dream and a “what if we did this” conversation. Much hard work went into faithfully re-creating the blends we have today. This work came from a love of the hobby and a willingness to share with others. We intend to stay true to those principles and continue to fight for rights of all pipe smokers to make informed decisions about their personal lives.

John Fruhmann
CEO-Standard Tobacco of Pennsylvania
That interpretation ("Buy it while you can" - "August 8, 2018 is the cut-off date for selling post 2007 blends such as ours without an FDA Substantial Equivalence (SE) approval") is NOT consistent with the FDA deeming regulation.
Companies cannot introduce new blends to market after Aug. 8th without approval but all blends introduced before the deeming rule came into force, and after Feb. 15, 2007, have 24 months from the deeming rule coming into force for seeking FDA SE approval (or whatever) and they remain on the market for the entire 24 mos. The FDA is expecting that some of the approvals will go through multiple tries and they're not enforcing any product exits from the market for the full 24 mos. So what are the pirates doing? El Crappo rises again only to threaten suicide. We're not impressed. Who is their distributor; let me guess... STG?

Where is Les?
Yeah, I just posted them for edification. It's confusing to me, as, like you, I was under the impression there was a 2-year grace period. The issue, at least to me, is the problem of them having no one to sell it. I'm guessing P&C has told them they'll stop selling it, with perhaps Smokingpipes doing the same. P&C has been sending out notes in their newsletters and their e-mails about removing a lot of their blends from the market by December. Perhaps these guys know something we don't just yet.
We have only the vaguest idea of how much effort is involved in dealing with the FDA even without requesting SE status for every product that they cannot show was available before Feb. 15, 2007. It may be that they're looking at the effort/cost vs. sales across all of their sku's (it's another significant sku cost) and deciding to cut back early. This is an entirely new situation and the costs and overheads are going to change. It may be that their biz model will not support those costs. In which case we may see massive loss this year. But the vendors do not have any obligation to be open and honest with us. And we're seeing that. The FDA isn't enforcing any cease marketing and sales on any newly deemed pipe tobacco product this year. However, the vendors may feel that they have to adjust their product offerings since there will be new costs and they may have to adjust their lines to adapt. There were relatively low per sku costs previously and we saw a growing proliferation of product in accordance with that. This is not so different from products discontinued because the sales volume fell below a threshold. We've seen a lot of that and the vendors and manufacturers are very cagey about answering questions about that. BTW the FDA used P&C's website as a product reference to calculate effort required in reporting quarterly to them by manufacturers, importers, distributors etc. for pipes and pipe tobacco and said as much in the deeming rule. I chuckled at that.

Vendors that lie to us do not deserve our business. And in interpreting the deeming rule the way they did they are lying. It may be that the FDA provoked them to make changes but then it isn't the FDA market approval that is responsible. The vendors are taking initiative. We should keep track of product availability changes and ask vendors to honestly account for it.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:34 am

Thunktank wrote:
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How much more of this will we tolerate before we've had enough? Pipes, religion, guns and you name it, they are domesticating us in their zoo.
It's not prohibition. Compared to the rest of the world you guys have enjoyed a free ride. The US is very late to tobacco control, as the rest of us have experienced it. Go out and compare tobacco costs or tobacco tax levels. Go look at the gun restrictions in countries outside the US. We're not so polarized on religion; it's very quiet.

The US did NOT ratify the WHO FCTC but instead went their own way and now we have the FDA. As much as Europe went a little off the deep end with detailed lists of permitted tobacco additives in specific max. concentrations this FDA thing looks worse and I think we haven't seen the real effects yet. But I have been pointing out the number of nations that ratified the FCTC.

We outside the US have all suffered these nanny issues. Did you really think you were completely exempt? I told you guys that you have nowhere to go that isn't worse. The FDA worried me much more than your taxation stuff. It was going to be many many years until the US reached tobacco tax parity with anyone else.

Pain is conserved. Welcome to our lot. When you are no longer willing to tolerate it what will you do? Tobacco isn't a partisan issue.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:45 pm

An article for your perusing: http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/pipe-news ... dont-know/

In it, it discusses some of what the regulations entail, including each individual pipe having to go through an approval process.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:58 pm

Joshoowah wrote:An article for your perusing: http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/pipe-news ... dont-know/

In it, it discusses some of what the regulations entail, including each individual pipe having to go through an approval process.
LOL! This was my worst case interpretation of the FDA's approach to regulating pipes. I'm not sure how I feel about someone else reading it that way. What a nightmare.

It's not just about new pipes either. Today there are many who alter the material makeup of a pipe - pipe repair service people, hobbyists who refurb and sell used pipes, etc. Then there are all channels to market. Today they include tobacco retailers, a huge variety of informal sales channels eg forums like this one, artisan pipe e-commerce sites, pipe shows, etc. There is a huge estate market for used pipes. It's not at all clear what happens to any of this in the future.

Most pipe makers, repair crafts people, individuals w/o incorporation that refurb & sell pipes, etc are not tobacco makers, importers, distributors, nor retailers. So what happens to the status of pipes generally and the channels to market that exist today? Pipes, new and used, today are not a controlled commodity as tobacco is. But the FDA is saying that the components (eg pipes) are tobacco products. They might seek to restrict the sales through a licensed tobacco retailer.
Last edited by Rusty on Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:02 pm

Rusty wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:An article for your perusing: http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/pipe-news ... dont-know/

In it, it discusses some of what the regulations entail, including each individual pipe having to go through an approval process.
LOL! This was my worst case interpretation of the FDA's approach to regulating pipes. I'm not sure how I feel about someone else reading it that way. What a nightmare.
Yeah, it's odd.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by hugodrax » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:29 am

Rusty wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:An article for your perusing: http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/pipe-news ... dont-know/

In it, it discusses some of what the regulations entail, including each individual pipe having to go through an approval process.
LOL! This was my worst case interpretation of the FDA's approach to regulating pipes. I'm not sure how I feel about someone else reading it that way. What a nightmare.

It's not just about new pipes either. Today there are many who alter the material makeup of a pipe - pipe repair service people, hobbyists who refurb and sell used pipes, etc. Then there are all channels to market. Today they include tobacco retailers, a huge variety of informal sales channels eg forums like this one, artisan pipe e-commerce sites, pipe shows, etc. There is a huge estate market for used pipes. It's not at all clear what happens to any of this in the future.

Most pipe makers, repair crafts people, individuals w/o incorporation that refurb & sell pipes, etc are not tobacco makers, importers, distributors, nor retailers. So what happens to the status of pipes generally and the channels to market that exist today? Pipes, new and used, today are not a controlled commodity as tobacco is. But the FDA is saying that the components (eg pipes) are tobacco products. They might seek to restrict the sales through a licensed tobacco retailer.
I can tell you how you felt about me interpreting it that way: you made fun of my interpretive skills as an attorney and suggested I might be relying on insufficient sources bease the deeming regs didnt make my theory clear. Turns out our different interpretations were based on a fundamentally different assumption. You must have been looking at the pipe as an accessory, whereas I looked at it as a tobacco product because a pipe is completely and totally necessary as a vessel to hold the burning pipe tobacco, whereas a tamper, lighter, pouch, etc., is not. On a basic level, if a product is called "pipe tobacco" then the "pipe" is not truly separable from the "tobacco."

Also, when dealing with legislation, the legislative intent is often as important as the language. Since the intent is stated as essentially making the product safe, and we know that can't be done, then the intent must really be to protect the public by stamping out the practice. Since "pipe" and "pipe tobacco" are inseperable beasts, then they must both be in the sights and the goal must be stringent regulation of both.

And it turns out that my tobacconist was correct, which I find not entirely surprising. A policy wonk is just that, a wallah that reads up on the subject without any other knowledge but what he gleans through the papers he reads. He's not going to know about Teipens or Bang. He's going to have read about Dr. Ggrabow. The big guys who turn out thousands. Pipes with shape numbers and predetermined sizes being churned out of nice safe factories, charming to his mathematical little heart. You can trust a factory. Guys like Teipen, if he's heard of them at all, are going to be as dangerous as the dude tinkering with a vape. No standards. God knows what they're going to be doing to the health of he consumer.

And so the wonk comes up with a way to fairly deal with the factory and not the individual carver. Turn in a sample of all of your shapes and models for testing and filing. The handmade guy would, necessarily, have to turn in each individual masterpiece to prove he isn't doing anything stupid. And frazed pipes are the rule of the day.

Now for my question. Do we think this could possibly last? Every pipe, even factory pipes, are different and require much handwork in the internals. Personally, I'm expecting the tobacco part of the proposed rules to stand up to court action. Nobody has a fundamental right to bring a tobacco to market, at least not one that trumps the state's right not to poison it's citizens. But I think the stamping out of artisan pipe makers, and the crazy regulations coming on what constitutes a pipe, are unlikely to pass because they aren't narrowly tailored to the stated goal of the regs, that is, a safe product, especially since there's no definition of what an unsafe pipe would be.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:59 pm

FDA Loses Lawsuit Over Tobacco Labeling Changes

It is interesting they lost that part of the litigation. In any case, the more important litigations are what I'm watching for.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Fainn » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:09 pm

Joshoowah wrote:FDA Loses Lawsuit Over Tobacco Labeling Changes

It is interesting they lost that part of the litigation. In any case, the more important litigations are what I'm watching for.
Keep us updated
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:18 am

Joshoowah wrote:FDA Loses Lawsuit Over Tobacco Labeling Changes

It is interesting they lost that part of the litigation. In any case, the more important litigations are what I'm watching for.
The FDA lose a lot of them. This suggests that they are intentionally aggressive and encouraged to be so to the point that it goes to court.

"substantial equivalence, a process of FDA approval that is expected to cost upwards of $20,000 per individual cigar due to legal and testing fees"

Substantial equivalence applies to all of the PT blends introduced or reintroduced after Feb. 2007, and the costs cited will mean that we will likely lose most of them. I rather doubt that the PT market & the companies are large enough to accept those per product costs. Of course if the suit brought by the IPCPR and others is won then it may change things. We can only hope.

The other gray area unknown today by us is the overhead imposed by the FDA and its affects on retail product cost and product packaging. So for example bulk may no longer exist at the price points with the packaging it has today. That kind of thing may tip the market back into a long decline because it's no longer affordable by many so the market begins shrinking. It's all speculative today but one only has to look at the state of the market in other countries with much higher taxes/prices.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:40 am

Rusty wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:FDA Loses Lawsuit Over Tobacco Labeling Changes

It is interesting they lost that part of the litigation. In any case, the more important litigations are what I'm watching for.
The FDA lose a lot of them. This suggests that they are intentionally aggressive and encouraged to be so to the point that it goes to court.

"substantial equivalence, a process of FDA approval that is expected to cost upwards of $20,000 per individual cigar due to legal and testing fees"

Substantial equivalence applies to all of the PT blends introduced or reintroduced after Feb. 2007, and the costs cited will mean that we will likely lose most of them. I rather doubt that the PT market & the companies are large enough to accept those per product costs. Of course if the suit brought by the IPCPR and others is won then it may change things. We can only hope.

The other gray area unknown today by us is the overhead imposed by the FDA and its affects on retail product cost and product packaging. So for example bulk may no longer exist at the price points with the packaging it has today. That kind of thing may tip the market back into a long decline because it's no longer affordable by many so the market begins shrinking. It's all speculative today but one only has to look at the state of the market in other countries with much higher taxes/prices.
I found the $20,000 estimate above the be better than the hundreds of thousands we've heard thus far. It's still a very high number, yes, but it is at least somewhat more manageable than $200,000. Who knows what the actual cost will be at this point though.
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