FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:04 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Rusty wrote:
hugodrax wrote:
Rusty wrote:
hugodrax wrote:
JudgeRusty wrote:Should we start a CPS fund to send Hugo to this conference?

http://www.fdli.org/conferences/tobacco-conference-2016
I'm game. To be honest, I'm every bit as interested in what's going to happen to pipes. My tobacconist seems to think it will be the death of hand carved pipes. We might see a real resurgence in factory pipes, if she's right.
I'm back to the position that regulation doesn't include smoking pipes or waterpipes. It does include e-pipes.
I've been digging through their deeming reg and there is a lot that is vague, for example at some points they says cigars and pipes, when they should be saying cigars and pipe tobaccos. In all of their summaries they do not include smoking pipes and waterpipes.

So what do you have that says otherwise?
Absolutely nothing but the scuttlebutt at the tobacconists. She seems to think from her "sources" that tobacco pipes are going to be standardized, i.e., a sample sent for measurement and "testing." Two billiards from the same maker would, under her theory, be as close as possible mirror images.
LOL! That constitutes rumour and, forgive me, but I assumed that a lawyer would be as demanding as me and sit down to read the deeming regulation with a bowl of tobacco.

Pipes are not going to be standardized and there is nothing like that in the deeming regulation. If there is any testing being done the manufacturers are going to have it done. But as I say part o0f the problem is that the deeming regs say nothing about attributes of pipes being regulated except for the e-pipes. You can replace smoking pipes with water pipes and come to the same conclusion.

So... get off your duff; I need an opponent to argue this out complete with doc. references. We should be able to get to the bottom of this. The game is afoot.
Rusty,

You have taken as read two things without any seeming reason to do so: first, that I believe her; and second, that I haven't read the regs. I don't believe her. I dont see freehands or hand carvwd pipes being banned. But I am at the stage where I don't necessarily reject what she's saying out of hand. I've read the regs and am not terribly impressed that they say much of anything at all. But it does strike me as odd that the FDA gave itself power to regulate pipes without really defining what a "pipe" is.

It seems like the first thing they're going to have to do is define what exactly a "pipe" is and do so in great detail. Not being smokers themselves, that's probably not the easiest thing in the world to do. In order to regulate that which is standard vs that requiring additional testing, they're going to have to define what constitutes a traditional pipe. It's going to be interesting to watch them do that. I don't see dimensions being the issue so much as materials and manufacturer registration. It may be unlikely we'll ever see a Venturi pipe again.

If the ultimate goal is stamping out smoking, then there are two ways of doing it. The first is to make pipe tobacco incredibly hard to produce. Looks like they are well on their way for that one. The second is to make pipes unobtainable in themselves. I'm curious how they're going to go about that one.
I don't know whether you believe her or not. I also don't know whether you've read the regs. I'm just trying to goad you into a discussion where we get to the bottom of the question - Is the FDA planning to regulate smoking pipes, by this deeming reg, in any way, including registration, and if so what exactly are they planning to do?
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:35 pm

FDA infographic - what is regulated?

Image
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Jocose » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:41 pm

Y'all shoulda stocked up when I told ya to.

Nobody listened to me tho.

I'm good.

I'll be blowing smoke rings while most of you will be panicking.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:54 pm

Jocose wrote:Y'all shoulda stocked up when I told ya to.

Nobody listened to me tho.

I'm good.

I'll be blowing smoke rings while most of you will be panicking.
I did.
Still am. :pipe:
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:01 am

Jocose wrote:Y'all shoulda stocked up when I told ya to.

Nobody listened to me tho.

I'm good.

I'll be blowing smoke rings while most of you will be panicking.
Eh, I'm assuming we still got at least 2 years before a lot of those blends we love leave the market. I have 25 lbs of tobacco that will last me a good long while, but I still plan on making an order for the Pease and Seattle Pipe Club stuff I love. After that, I'm done.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Fainn » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:10 am

2 blends from Casey Jones and 2 blends from GL Pease have been introduced recently. Are they exempt somehow?
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by hugodrax » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:48 am

Rusty wrote:FDA infographic - what is regulated?

Image
You should look at other info graphics on the same site. Conflicting information.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:23 am

hugodrax wrote:
Rusty wrote:FDA infographic - what is regulated?

Image
You should look at other info graphics on the same site. Conflicting information.
Yeah, I think it's all confusing and there appears to be conflicting info too.
There are some statements that they see pipes as components that will be regulated. For example here - http://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Labe ... 482580.htm
“Components” or “parts” include, among other things, software or an assembly of materials intended or reasonably expected to alter or affect the tobacco product’s performance, composition, constituents, or characteristics; or to be used with or for the human consumption of a tobacco product. Accessories of newly-regulated tobacco products are not regulated.
They see accessories as lighters. I suspect they're unaware of pipe tools.

The pipe makers here are staying pretty quiet so the question - how might they interpret any of this?
There are some very scared posters on the pipe makers forum ... and esp. their "so now what" threads
http://www.pipemakersforum.com/forum/vi ... 15&t=11165
http://www.pipemakersforum.com/forum/vi ... 15&t=11173

Apparently a pipe show (Nashville) sched. for Sep. has been cancelled. The sponsors have cold feet and it's understandable.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:29 am

Fainn wrote:2 blends from Casey Jones and 2 blends from GL Pease have been introduced recently. Are they exempt somehow?
No, but they will continue to be available (subject only to the manufacturer) until at least 2018. No new blends at all will be introduced after the new deeming rule goes live (August 8th 2016 AFAIK) unless the FDA approves them for the market. So we have what we have.

All blends introduced after Feb. 15, 2007 are considered "new" and approval from the FDA must be obtained or they are pulled from the market by 2018, latest. And the FDA's progress in addressing new product approval so far is pitiful. The FDA is supposed to rule within 90 days. But all of this is out in the future.

Next week is the IPCPR retailers show and that is traditionally the show when McClelland launches this year's Christmas Cheer tobacco and takes orders. So we'll see if it appears and it will be one of the last. All of the limited edition tobaccos may be a real problem or impossible with the existing FDA deeming rule and so possibly this is the last of them. Aug. 8th is the beginning of a new era for OTP generally, unless something changes. There are a lot of unknowns.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Sir Moose » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:44 pm

Sir Moose wrote:I realize that it's just spitting in the wind, but I sent an email to FDA (with CC to my senators and rep) that said:
FDA,

On your website, you say that "in 2016, FDA finalized a rule extending our regulatory authority to cover all tobacco products, including pipe tobacco." How does it make sense that you get to extend your own authority? You aren't the Marine Corps that gets to storm beaches and conquer territory. Your authority gets assigned to you - you not get to define it yourself. How about I just give myself authority over you and then assign your employees to more useful tasks, like making paper swans to decorate the waters of the Potomac? It makes as much sense as your power grab.

Surprise, surprise - they responded. For your 'edification':
FDA wrote: Dear Mr. Sir Moose,

Thank you for contacting the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regarding its recently finalized rule, "Deeming Tobacco Products to be Subject to the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, as Amended by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act" (Deeming rule).

You may be interested to know that the FDA Center for Tobacco Products is responsible for carrying out the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, which Congress passed in 2009. This law-commonly called the Tobacco Control Act-gives us broad authority to regulate the manufacturing, distribution, and marketing of tobacco products. The FDA's mandate is to protect Americans from tobacco-related disease and death. Ultimately, we hope that regulating all tobacco products will have a positive impact on public health. That is the motivation for finalizing the rule.

We understand that consumers, manufacturers, retailers and related businesses will be impacted by this rule in some way. Given your interest in the rule, I want to share some additional information about it in case you would like to read more.

Final Rule Addresses Public Health Concerns Focusing on Youth
The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (TCA), passed by Congress on a bipartisan basis and signed by the President in 2009, gave the FDA tools to protect the public from the harms of tobacco use. Since June 2009, the FDA has regulated cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, roll-your-own tobacco, and smokeless tobacco products under its tobacco control authority. The law also gave the FDA the ability, through rulemaking, to regulate additional products that meet the legal definition of a tobacco product.

This new rule brings all tobacco products under FDA oversight, including e-cigarettes, cigars, hookah tobacco and pipe tobacco, among others. This historic step will help improve public health and protect future generations from the risks of tobacco use by putting additional restrictions in place that make it illegal to sell tobacco products to minors.

Before this rule, there was no federal law prohibiting stores and websites from selling e-cigarettes, hookah tobacco, and cigars to minors. The new rule aims to deter youth initiation through restricting youth access to these products by:

* Not allowing products to be sold to persons under the age of 18 years;
* Requiring age verification by photo ID;
* Not allowing the selling of tobacco products in vending machines (unless in an adult-only facility); and
* Not allowing the distribution of free samples.

The rule also serves as the foundation for future FDA actions related to tobacco, including where scientific data supports regulatory action, addressing flavors in combustible products.

Extending the FDA's Authority is a Milestone in Public Health and Consumer Protection
Going forward, the FDA will be able to review all new tobacco products not yet on the market. The actions being taken also will help the FDA prevent misleading claims and provide consumers with better information about the risks of tobacco use. The rule also will allow the FDA to evaluate the ingredients of tobacco products, how those products are made, and their potential dangers.

The rule will subject all manufacturers, importers and/or retailers of newly-regulated tobacco products to any applicable provisions, bringing them in line with other tobacco products the FDA has regulated under the TCA since 2009.

These requirements include:
* Registering manufacturing establishments and providing product listings to the FDA;
* Reporting ingredients, and harmful and potentially harmful constituents;
* Requiring premarket review and authorization of new tobacco products by the FDA;
* Placing health warnings on product packages and advertisements; and
* Not selling modified risk tobacco products (including those described as "light," "low," or "mild") unless authorized by the FDA.

Manufacturers of newly-regulated products must show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. The review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA does not intend to enforce the premarket review requirements for up to three years while manufacturers submit - and the FDA reviews - a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise the product will be subject to enforcement.
For More Information

To assist the newly-regulated tobacco industry in complying with the requirements, the FDA is also publishing several other regulatory documents that provide additional clarity, instructions and/or the FDA's current thinking on issues specific to the newly-regulated products.

For more information:
* Final Rule: https://federalregister.gov/a/2016-10685
* Deeming - Extending Authorities to All Tobacco Products, Including E-Cigarettes, Cigars, and Hookah: http://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Labe ... 388395.htm
* FDA takes significant steps to protect Americans from dangers of tobacco through new regulation: http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/ ... 499234.htm

We respect your opinion and value all of the comments that we receive. We appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
____________________
Center for Tobacco Products
Food and Drug Administration
CTP Call Center: 1-877-CTP-1373
www.fda.gov/tobaccoproducts
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:28 am

Thanks, Moose.

There's actually quite a bit of clarification there.
The phrase "current thinking" was a bit discomforting. I wonder how often new thinking will expand regulation?

Regardless, I'm buying favorite tobaccos to cellar.
I just hope this doesn't turn into a situation like we had with .22 LR ammunition the past few years.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:09 am

durangopipe wrote:The phrase "current thinking" was a bit discomforting. I wonder how often new thinking will expand regulation.
The FDA may be in for an education on some of this and it may change what they do.

I'll give you a specific example. Smoking pipes for use with tobacco. They say they're going to regulate them.

They've been very vague about what they mean by "regulate components" by which they mean smoking pipes and who they expect to regulate, specifically.
For example we buy and sell not just new pipes but estate pipes that may or may not be used and from periods that span the 2nd half of the 19th C. through to modern new manufactured pipes of a wide variety of materials. Are they really going to regulate all smoking pipes from whatever era? There are also services that repair, refinish, and replace components on pipes of all ages. And the activity ranges from individuals refurbing old pipes for sale (not registered as companies) through to small companies making new pipes. Many (if not most) do not manufacture, import, distribute, or retail any tobacco product whatsoever. So the FDA's user fee structure does not apply to them. I suspect that not one of the various pipe making enterprises through history right through to today has ever done any sort of health study concerning the various materials used in pipes historical and today. The FDA's statements suggest that they may not have clue what it means to regulate tobacco pipes..

Who are they regulating in these various enterprises? And who should step up and register with the FDA?
What fees, if any, are those that register expected to cough up to the FDA? And based upon what?
What reporting & administrative overhead will the FDA expect in dealing with them?
Do new artisan pipes, repaired pipes, estate collectible pipes, like new tobacco products, need FDA authorization before being sold?
There is also a huge range of channels for selling new and estate pipes eg pipe shows, forums, individual websites, eBay, retailers etc. What is the impact of FDA regulation on each of these various channels?
Americans are also free to buy estate and used pipes from foreign countries. Are they regulating those too?

I think we ought to ask the FDA what they have in mind for 'regulating components' with smoking pipes.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:38 am

Clearly, we need:

1) Universal background checks for those buying pipes (existing medical conditions, etc.)
2) A ban on large bowl pipes. Nobody needs to smoke more than 10 grams of tobacco in order to accomplish their intentions. If they need more than that, they should learn how to smoke.
3) Close the pipe show loophole!

Clearly, when the Constitution guaranteed us the right to pursue happiness, it meant that in the context of a "well regulated" happiness.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:50 am

I'm sorry for all the posts, but this madness has got to stop.
People are dying.

I saw an article in the weekend magazine of the NY Times last week (July 16, 2027) about a paranoid whacko out in Colorado who has dozens of pipes. Dozens! And in his basement dozens of tins of tabacco, with even more stored in glass jars!

What is wrong with these people??
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

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Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

Roderick Haig-Brown

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:08 pm

durangopipe wrote:I'm sorry for all the posts, but this madness has got to stop.
People are dying.

I saw an article in the weekend magazine of the NY Times last week (July 16, 2027) about a paranoid whacko out in Colorado who has dozens of pipes. Dozens! And in his basement dozens of tins of tabacco, with even more stored in glass jars!

What is wrong with these people??
You mean that nut in Colorado is still alive?

More seriously it's very easy to lapse into fear and despair. The FDA may or may not be trying to kill the industry. We can certainly indulge the paranoia but other than the sheer exuberant joy in rage it accomplishes absolutely nothing. It's all over the web too. So I'd prefer that we assume that they're not trying to kill the entire industry for now. I might be wrong but why not explore their actual plans for a while and see what we can ferret out of the details. It's complex and may be half baked. Also there is always a benefit in understanding the opponent.

Pipes are not a controlled commodity as tobacco is so I think they have relatively limited scope. Try and remember that a much larger group of smokers has enjoyed illegal leaf and bongs for many years with virtually no dent by a determined law enforcement. They outnumber us at least 10 times over. We're knee deep in pipes, the web is the wild west, and we can do what we want. Ultimately it's our choice.

I think we should ask them questions about their plans. Pretend they're the enemy and we're spying on them. You might be surprised at how satisfying it is to spy on our enemy. :D
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by JimVH » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:49 pm

durangopipe wrote:Clearly, we need:

1) Universal background checks for those buying pipes (existing medical conditions, etc.)
2) A ban on large bowl pipes. Nobody needs to smoke more than 10 grams of tobacco in order to accomplish their intentions. If they need more than that, they should learn how to smoke.
3) Close the pipe show loophole!

Clearly, when the Constitution guaranteed us the right to pursue happiness, it meant that in the context of a "well regulated" happiness.
Don't forget the second-hand pipe issue. Smokers use quaint, disalarming terms like 'estate pipe' to mask the fact that they are recycling death machines over and over again.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:11 pm

Don't forget the second-hand pipe issue. Smokers use quaint, disalarming terms like 'estate pipe' to mask the fact that they are recycling death machines over and over again.
Those sneaky SOBs!
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:36 pm

Details are beginning to leak out.

A pro-pipe-smoking mole at the FDA, working from his mother's basement, managed to get his hands on this official document and post it on his blog:

Image

That guy's a regular Edward Snowden, I tell ya.
He's blowing the lid off this whole thing!
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

J.R.R. Tolkien



Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

Roderick Haig-Brown

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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by Rusty » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:29 pm

durangopipe wrote:Details are beginning to leak out.

A pro-pipe-smoking mole at the FDA, working from his mother's basement, managed to get his hands on this official document and post it on his blog:

Image

That guy's a regular Edward Snowden, I tell ya.
He's blowing the lid off this whole thing!
That looks like the kind of thing a pipe smoker would come up with.

Want to hear about the much worse FDA vision?

New Tobacco Components, previously known anachronistically as pipes, that were not on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007 require a PMTA (FDA authorization) before they can be offered for sale as a new tobacco product offering. The policy target for deciding upon a PMTA is 90 days and depends upon a variety of factors, eg attractiveness to youth and others. However, the FDA does not commit to meet the 90 day target. You may never hear from them again.
Last edited by Rusty on Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:35 pm

eg attractiveness to youth and others
"And others" is pretty vague.
So the new regs are going to require pipes to be ugly?

I'm trying to keep laughing here, Rusty.
You're making that harder to do.
The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.

J.R.R. Tolkien



Wherever we go in the world we find other men speaking the same language...dreaming the same dreams. And one of the big four - brownie, or brookie, cutthroat or rainbow - is the cause of it all.

Roderick Haig-Brown

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