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Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:11 am
by saltedplug
Tobacco use was all but mandatory in the US in the first half of the 1900s. Everybody smoked, and they smoked where they pleased. But in the 60s those pesky health concerns started to surface, and the evidence amassed that tobacco kills, and despite the power and money of Big Tobacco, a negative opinion became a condemnatory opinion. Now only those who love tobacco support it, all of which is to say that anyone who thinks that the foot is not going to fall, or if it does fall, fall lightly, are, I think, at best misguided. Those who make the rules regard supporting tobacco as a sign of illness and in need of strict regulation.

Hard times are coming for those without a substantial cellar. Look at the way the Brits have to scrounge for something to smoke. It's hard to believe but that's coming, all from the attitude and actions of shall we say the highly dubious, morally compromised, thieves that go by the name of politicians. Their attitude must be enacted.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:41 pm
by Rusty
A little bit of news is available but not a draft of the deeming regulation, yet. These guys are like molasses on a cold day.

Earlier this year they summarized all the responses they received from the proposed deeming rule last year. Remember?

Deeming – Extending Authorities to Additional Tobacco Products

On that page they provide a bunch of other info and among them is a pdf summary of the written responses provided from industry, consumers etc. It's in the following PDF...

Summary of Write-in Campaigns to Docket FDA-2014-N-0189 - 15pg pdf

Re:

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:38 pm
by Kerdy
Kerderated...

Re:

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:39 pm
by Kerdy
Kerderated...

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 10:04 am
by bean_counter
New rules issued today. Pipe tobacco mentioned once, in the agency saying it is "extending its authority" to a list of items

Big things I see after a cursory glance:

- free samples banned
- premarket review and authorization of new products

Link included to make this post UncleBob compliant

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/ ... 499234.htm

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 6:37 pm
by Rusty
bean_counter wrote:New rules issued today. Pipe tobacco mentioned once, in the agency saying it is "extending its authority" to a list of items

Big things I see after a cursory glance:

- free samples banned
- premarket review and authorization of new products

Link included to make this post UncleBob compliant

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/ ... 499234.htm
Yup, they finally did it. And the actual regulation, all 499 pgs of it, is at the following in PDF form.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspect ... -10685.pdf

That's actually a pre-release. On May 10, 2016 it will be published in the federal register. 90 days after that (early August 2016) it's active law.

The cigar smokers did not get a free pass, which if you remember was one of the options that the FDA considered. I gather it was rejected.

The premarket review and authorization to market new products appears to apply, as expected, to all blends introduced after Feb. 15, 2007. This is a lot of blends in the pipe tobacco market and it appears that it's no cakewalk to get approval. Have a gander at the actual regulation starting on pg 64 which addresses new product approval.
Today’s rule also requires manufacturers of all newly-regulated products, to show that the products meet the applicable public health standard set forth in the law and receive marketing authorization from the FDA, unless the product was on the market as of Feb. 15, 2007. [R:This was the date provided in the original legislation.] The tobacco product review process gives the agency the ability to evaluate important factors such as ingredients, product design and health risks, as well as their appeal to youth and non-users.

Under staggered timelines, the FDA expects that manufacturers will continue selling their products for up to two years while they submit – and an additional year while the FDA reviews – a new tobacco product application. The FDA will issue an order granting marketing authorization where appropriate; otherwise, the product will face FDA enforcement.
Plus the manufacturers and importers will paying fees to the FDA now.. http://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Labe ... 499344.htm

I think this is based upon market share. The question is which market? Anyway the product price will likely go up.

This is a very significant change to the American pipe tobacco market anyway. There are lots of things eg limited edition blends, and user designed blends eg Jeffersonian Mix, things like the Sobranie bakeoff at the Chicago show that are likely no longer possible after this becomes the law. And I see no guarantee that all the blends we have now will still be marketed 3 years from now after dealing with the FDA approval process.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:17 pm
by pilgrim
This is concerning. I am in China and don't have a way to build up a cellar in the States, a place where I foresee going back to within the next few years. How much should we expect prices to go up?

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:57 pm
by Jocose
I happened upon a smoke shop the other day and there was a shelf of RYO cig tobacco labeled "Pipe tobacco" I should have snapped a pic.

Everyone knows it is RYO.

THIS IS WHATS PUTTING THE HURT ON PIPE SMOKERS IMO

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:09 am
by Rusty
Jocose wrote:I happened upon a smoke shop the other day and there was a shelf of RYO cig tobacco labeled "Pipe tobacco" I should have snapped a pic.

Everyone knows it is RYO.

THIS IS WHATS PUTTING THE HURT ON PIPE SMOKERS IMO
This has nothing to do with tobacco taxation. And the RYO labeling was about taxation.

For once, you're not to blame either. :lol:

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:14 am
by Rusty
pilgrim wrote:This is concerning. I am in China and don't have a way to build up a cellar in the States, a place where I foresee going back to within the next few years. How much should we expect prices to go up?
No way to know today because the importers and manufacturers haven't been assessed any fees nor had any experience dealing with the FDA. This is not taxation, but rather increased cost of doing biz. We'll have to wait and see. It might be very minor.

If the market includes the re-labeled RYO then actual pipe tobacco is probably still a smaller proportion so our dear importers and manufacturers of actual pipe tobacco will be assessed lower fees. Maybe.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:29 am
by bean_counter
I work in manufacturing; we make an FDA regulated OTC product. As a cost accountant I see the effects of regulatory changes. If the FDA makes something time consuming and onerous, that translates straight to bottom line profit $. Time is money when you have to pay chemists to perform tests and fill out endless documentation. Audits and inspections are even more expensive. The decision has to be made - are we actually making enough profit to bother with this product/ process?

My fear is that this is an incremental approach to make pipe tobacco manufacture and import just not worth the hassle.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 9:09 am
by John-Boy
Jocose wrote:I happened upon a smoke shop the other day and there was a shelf of RYO cig tobacco labeled "Pipe tobacco" I should have snapped a pic.

Everyone knows it is RYO.

THIS IS WHATS PUTTING THE HURT ON PIPE SMOKERS IMO
JM Boswell was talking about that last time we were up there. He said something like you can't really disguise roll yer own as pipe tobacco because the moisture content is totally different... or at least the feds will catch them. RYO has to be significantly drier to burn than we like out pipe tobacco... something like that. I was focused on snapping pictures of Thoth and only half listening.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 9:21 am
by UncleBob
John-Boy wrote:
Jocose wrote:I happened upon a smoke shop the other day and there was a shelf of RYO cig tobacco labeled "Pipe tobacco" I should have snapped a pic.

Everyone knows it is RYO.

THIS IS WHATS PUTTING THE HURT ON PIPE SMOKERS IMO
JM Boswell was talking about that last time we were up there. He said something like you can't really disguise roll yer own as pipe tobacco because the moisture content is totally different... or at least the feds will catch them. RYO has to be significantly drier to burn than we like out pipe tobacco... something like that. I was focused on snapping pictures of Thoth and only half listening.
Who's that bald guy behind Thoth?

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 9:52 am
by John-Boy
UncleBob wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Jocose wrote:I happened upon a smoke shop the other day and there was a shelf of RYO cig tobacco labeled "Pipe tobacco" I should have snapped a pic.

Everyone knows it is RYO.

THIS IS WHATS PUTTING THE HURT ON PIPE SMOKERS IMO
JM Boswell was talking about that last time we were up there. He said something like you can't really disguise roll yer own as pipe tobacco because the moisture content is totally different... or at least the feds will catch them. RYO has to be significantly drier to burn than we like out pipe tobacco... something like that. I was focused on snapping pictures of Thoth and only half listening.
Who's that bald guy behind Thoth?
He was sitting there when we came in. We tried to make him feel uncomfortable so that he would move... didn't work.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 10:36 am
by Jocose
John-Boy wrote:
Jocose wrote:I happened upon a smoke shop the other day and there was a shelf of RYO cig tobacco labeled "Pipe tobacco" I should have snapped a pic.

Everyone knows it is RYO.

THIS IS WHATS PUTTING THE HURT ON PIPE SMOKERS IMO
JM Boswell was talking about that last time we were up there. He said something like you can't really disguise roll yer own as pipe tobacco because the moisture content is totally different... or at least the feds will catch them. RYO has to be significantly drier to burn than we like out pipe tobacco... something like that. I was focused on snapping pictures of Thoth and only half listening.
RYO is disquieted as pipe tobacco here. I'm not sure what moisture level legally describes the difference between RYO and PT but it's got me curious.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 11:40 am
by DAN
I am starting my plans for next spring's backyard tobacco plot. I will grow the stuff even if I never smoke a bit of it (though I'm sure gonna try) just because they POed me.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 12:38 pm
by Rusty
Jocose wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Jocose wrote:I happened upon a smoke shop the other day and there was a shelf of RYO cig tobacco labeled "Pipe tobacco" I should have snapped a pic.

Everyone knows it is RYO.

THIS IS WHATS PUTTING THE HURT ON PIPE SMOKERS IMO
JM Boswell was talking about that last time we were up there. He said something like you can't really disguise roll yer own as pipe tobacco because the moisture content is totally different... or at least the feds will catch them. RYO has to be significantly drier to burn than we like out pipe tobacco... something like that. I was focused on snapping pictures of Thoth and only half listening.
RYO is disquieted as pipe tobacco here. I'm not sure what moisture level legally describes the difference between RYO and PT but it's got me curious.
RYO is never disquieted. It doesn't get mad, it doesn't experience joy, nor vindictiveness. Worrying is beyond the capacity of RYO. And this whole issue of RYO is irrelevant to the FDA activities. There is some history here that is interesting but it's all about taxation - that's a diff. dept. And the Gov has done very little to combat the remaining tax avoidance in relabeling (they did go after the cig making machines). It also avoided the PACT act and that's interesting. The RYO makers, who label it as pipe tobacco, will also get caught up in this FDA regulation and it will be interesting to see what they do. Maybe they'll relabel it as candy. LOL! Because the FDA has got to be interested in the diff. between pipe tobacco and RYO. Pipe smokers do smoke RYO in pipes but by virtue of the market size diff. they don't matter. With OTP under their belt the FDA inherits a curious form of tobacco control that distinguishes tobacco by form. I'm curious how they deal with this.

I'm curious about your idea of the damage that any of this relabeling has done to pipe tobaccos or pipe smokers. We saw at least three bills advanced in Congress to equalize the RYO & Pipe tobacco tax rates but the bills died with no consequence. The Federal excise tax rates haven't been touched despite opportunity and even scheduling reviews of the rates. Nor would the bills have dealt with avoiding the PACT act in 2010 which is the other 'benefit' of relabeling. Pipe tobacco manufacturers submitted details that would distinguish one from another on invitation. Nothing was done with that either. Nothing happened. Meanwhile the relabelers have had a price advantage in the RYO market and their products continued to be used by some pipe smokers.
DAN wrote:I am starting my plans for next spring's backyard tobacco plot. I will grow the stuff even if I never smoke a bit of it (though I'm sure gonna try) just because they POed me.
Don't let it get you down or make you mad. That's not good for you. Try to remember how slow these folks are. It's a steamroller but a very slow one. I think growing tobacco is a good response. I take a peculiar interest in what they're doing; it's like spying on the enemy.

Most tobacco control is focused on consumers and consumer behaviour. The FDA is going after product and its sources. I think this is potentially worse than taxation, but it depends what happens. There are also FDA rules that affect retail selling, labeling, etc. I'm still waiting to see what the FDA does, if anything, about online remote tobacco sales. They took an interest in this but so far nothing has happened.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 11:51 am
by Joshoowah
I can't help but think about all the blends that came out after 2007. Gosh, a lot of good tobaccos would cease to exist, including quite a few of my favorites. Oh well, I guess. I can't buy tons of tobacco to save for a later date. This sucks.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 7:10 pm
by Rusty
Joshoowah wrote:I can't help but think about all the blends that came out after 2007. Gosh, a lot of good tobaccos would cease to exist, including quite a few of my favorites. Oh well, I guess. I can't buy tons of tobacco to save for a later date. This sucks.
Don't give in to despair. Nothing is gone. And we don't know enough to say in any case. It's simply that all blends introduced to market after Feb 15, 2007 have another hurdle to leap. It might be that many are so similar in content to blends already on the market that the hurdle is not a stopper.

Also nothing is going away because of the FDA anytime soon. The FDA is incredibly slow and usually late. We expected this ruling in 2015 after their draft and request for comments in 2014. They're a year late. And we expected the draft back in 2012 or 2013 so really they're three years late. We may all have lived and died if the FDA continues with their molasses-in-January cruising speed. It's 90 days until the ruling is in force and two years after that, of dealing with the FDA over new blends intro'd after 2007, and then sometime in the third year any that have not been approved would be removed from the market. Provided the FDA doesn't extend the deadline. I'll bet they haven't seen anything like the number of new products that the pipe tobacco market has generated in the last 8 years or so. And it's not just pipe tobacco. The whole OTP class has been quite active introducing new products.

Stay frosty.

Re: FDA's case for regulating pipe tobacco - trouble coming

Posted: Mon May 09, 2016 11:43 am
by Joshoowah
Rusty wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:I can't help but think about all the blends that came out after 2007. Gosh, a lot of good tobaccos would cease to exist, including quite a few of my favorites. Oh well, I guess. I can't buy tons of tobacco to save for a later date. This sucks.
Don't give in to despair. Nothing is gone. And we don't know enough to say in any case. It's simply that all blends introduced to market after Feb 15, 2007 have another hurdle to leap. It might be that many are so similar in content to blends already on the market that the hurdle is not a stopper.

Also nothing is going away because of the FDA anytime soon. The FDA is incredibly slow and usually late. We expected this ruling in 2015 after their draft and request for comments in 2014. They're a year late. And we expected the draft back in 2012 or 2013 so really they're three years late. We may all have lived and died if the FDA continues with their molasses-in-January cruising speed. It's 90 days until the ruling is in force and two years after that, of dealing with the FDA over new blends intro'd after 2007, and then sometime in the third year any that have not been approved would be removed from the market. Provided the FDA doesn't extend the deadline. I'll bet they haven't seen anything like the number of new products that the pipe tobacco market has generated in the last 8 years or so. And it's not just pipe tobacco. The whole OTP class has been quite active introducing new products.

Stay frosty.
Well, I just experimented by adding my favorites to cart and seeing what it cost. If these blends come to end, I'll have to do without most likely. Can't be spending that kind of money.