FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

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FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by dennisthemenace » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:05 pm

Let's just hope this crap just goes away.

https://cigar-coop.com/2017/07/cigar-ne ... -2021.html
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Rusty » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:42 am

dennisthemenace wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:05 pm
Let's just hope this crap just goes away.

https://cigar-coop.com/2017/07/cigar-ne ... -2021.html
I think it won't go away. That would suppose that the US is entirely separate from the world-wide war on tobacco use. I really doubt it.

The delay is worth cheering and it may have an affect on what the industry does. It appears that industry can introduce new products in this interval (Aug 8, 2016 - Aug 8, 2021) provided they submit an ingredient list to the FDA for cursory approval. So we may see many more new products. I haven't looked at what the US States are doing with their tobacco taxation so I don't know what they will do with the extension. But we should be watching for industry changes. For example, we might see more small company acquisitions.

The demarcation date for grandfathered vs. new products hasn't changed from Feb 15, 2007. That date is pretty close to the min. in products that existed after years of a shrinking market. It wasn't until about 2010 that industry picked up and really began reintroducing old discontinued products and a lot of new products. Following that there were new companies entering the market too. All of the expanded product set will still be lost without a more economical way to get an equivalent to existing product to remain on the market. So that's still an outstanding problem to be solved. That problem exists for cigars too.

The FDA going after nicotine levels in cigarettes suggests that this is not over by a long shot. One of the potential side-effects of that is more people going to cigars and pipes. That will encourage the FDA to do likewise with pipe tobaccos and cigars.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by A_Morley » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:51 am

For any delay I say Callooh! Callay!
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by FredS » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:38 pm

I agree with Rusty - this isn't going away. The trend towards banning the sale of tobacco products has perhaps slowed for a while, but will pick up steam when Democrats inevitably return to power. Aside from repealing the absolute prohibition on alcohol and granting women and blacks the power to vote and equal access to public education, I can't think of a time the government has relaxed controls on individual liberties.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Rusty » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:42 pm

Interesting comment. We've just seen an about-face on e-cigs out of the FDA. And renewed attack on burning tobacco use. First and foremost on cigs. Going after cig nicotine levels to reduce demand & addiction is accelerating the harm reduction plan and it's a radical move. It's not just focused on the children either. It's harm reduction for all. Everyone has sort of taken it for granted that Trump's folks are good for biz. Gottlieb just pointed a gun at Big Tobacco and they all took a big hit on stock price. Most of them have been diversifying into e-cigs too but they still took a hit. If he succeeds at this Europe will follow. I'm not sure where pipes & pipes tobaccos are in any of this. Our tobaccos are mostly tied to cigs.

I think Gottlieb is forcing the previously hostile-to-ecigs FDA to go back and look again at e-cigs. Gottlieb is looking at e-cigs as part of the harm reduction strategy. That's not where the FDA was before Gottlieb arrived. The rest of OTP is sort of shackled to e-cigs so it's going along for the ride in this extension. I haven't seen any evidence that the admin is putting off the OTP reg into the next term for any political reason. Given the attack on cigs / Big Tobacco the view that they're managing it into somebody else's hands doesn't make sense. This is revectoring their plan but it's also accelerating the harm reduction. They're going to push the limits of what is allowed under the original legislation. Under the Dems the FDA wasn't this aggressive. It's not friendly to tobacco biz. It's going to be an interesting time.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by sweetandsour » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:20 am

At least this saved me some money, theoretically; getting stocked up on favorites that were targeted, before potential price hikes. Also got some favorite blends before the Syrian ran out, as an added plus. I'm curious now, if McC will produce any further Christmas Cheer blends.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Joshoowah » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:20 am

sweetandsour wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:20 am
At least this saved me some money, theoretically; getting stocked up on favorites that were targeted, before potential price hikes. Also got some favorite blends before the Syrian ran out, as an added plus. I'm curious now, if McC will produce any further Christmas Cheer blends.
+1

I bought quite a bit the past two years. Silver lining and all.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by durangopipe » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:56 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:20 am
sweetandsour wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:20 am
At least this saved me some money, theoretically; getting stocked up on favorites that were targeted, before potential price hikes. Also got some favorite blends before the Syrian ran out, as an added plus. I'm curious now, if McC will produce any further Christmas Cheer blends.
+1

I bought quite a bit the past two years. Silver lining and all.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by joegoat » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:29 am

So have "tobacco consumption devices" been removed from the pending rules? In the beginning it looked like the artisan pipe makers would become law breakers by continuing to make one of a kind pipes. The original verbiage would deal a crushing blow to our hobby as we know it today. I pray the libs never see power again. In my opinion, they need one heck of an attitude change to ever have a majority again. I see another party forming in the near future, even if it is just a reengineered democrat party. The conservatives are just as prone to tighten regulations, but they normally go about it much slower and are a bit more reasonable.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:58 pm

joegoat wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:29 am
So have "tobacco consumption devices" been removed from the pending rules? In the beginning it looked like the artisan pipe makers would become law breakers by continuing to make one of a kind pipes. The original verbiage would deal a crushing blow to our hobby as we know it today. I pray the libs never see power again. In my opinion, they need one heck of an attitude change to ever have a majority again. I see another party forming in the near future, even if it is just a reengineered democrat party. The conservatives are just as prone to tighten regulations, but they normally go about it much slower and are a bit more reasonable.
After the debacle that is the Democratic and Republican parties, I suspect we'll see two new parties in the coming years. Both are jokes at present.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Rusty » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:25 pm

The trend is that tobacco control goes beyond partisan party politics. It certainly has in Canada. Here it is virtually impossible to find any difference in the stance of established parties wrt tobacco. That Gottlieb surprised Big Tobacco with the FDA announcement (no consultation), that they're going after nicotine in cigs, and that the stock prices took a hit tells us that. This isn't tobacco friendly and it's not friendly to Philip Morris, who many suspected of being party to the FDA rules to their own benefit. That Gottlieb appears to be the author of a turnabout policy on e-cigs is tough to categorize as either republican or democrat. The FDA was pursuing a total abstinence policy so the e-cigs would exit the market with the grandfather date in place under that policy. It was a handy stick. The policy appears to have changed. Total abstinence has been replaced. And I think that change is the reason for the extension on the deeming rule. I suspect that it's going to be rewritten. It's no secret that the major motivation for the deeming rule was elimination of e-cigs. I wonder whether the deeming rule even intended for smoking pipes to be entangled in the device rules that were included with tobacco. It certainly makes sense with vaping.

Gottlieb was an appointee to the FDA under GW Bush too, but not as commissioner.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:34 pm

Well, the scuttlebutt is the original deeming regs came about because the cigarette manufacturers wanted to wipe out the e-cig and minor pipe tobacco producers in a lovely bit of evil, twisted Macchiavellianism. E-Cigs are deadly, pipe tobacco is untestable--the only safe thing we really have is cigarettes, where we can test the nicotine and tars and etc. The much maligned cigarette is the health trend. Competitors nicely wiped out.

Except e-Cigs and pipes are probably pretty good methods of harm reduction. I'm kind of hoping, absent all evidence, that this is a sign of a sea change in the short term thinking. Wipe out the cigarette in favor of harm reduction, not look at cigarettes as the most regulable of products.

Now longterm, we're still all boned. All tobacco is still on the chopping block. I think we're just changing who goes to the headsman first.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by FredS » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:56 pm

Does anyone see a more sensible attitude towards tobacco ahead? A century ago, we prohibited alcohol because it was agreed that abuse caused harm to families and 'society'. Shortly, however, saner minds realized the cure was worse than the disease and prohibition was lifted, but very restrictive laws were put in place to regulate the sale and consumption of hooch.

I've not studied the subject, but it seems that tobacco consuming cultures have seen benefits in it's use until perhaps 60 years ago. It's no secret that many of us benefit from moderate self-medicating with nicotine. Perhaps our grandchildren will swing back at processed cigarettes as we are doing right now with processed foods and 'natural' tobacco use will find a foothold.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by hugodrax » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:39 pm

FredS wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:56 pm
Does anyone see a more sensible attitude towards tobacco ahead? A century ago, we prohibited alcohol because it was agreed that abuse caused harm to families and 'society'. Shortly, however, saner minds realized the cure was worse than the disease and prohibition was lifted, but very restrictive laws were put in place to regulate the sale and consumption of hooch.

I've not studied the subject, but it seems that tobacco consuming cultures have seen benefits in it's use until perhaps 60 years ago. It's no secret that many of us benefit from moderate self-medicating with nicotine. Perhaps our grandchildren will swing back at processed cigarettes as we are doing right now with processed foods and 'natural' tobacco use will find a foothold.
Fred,

Interesting perspective. I'm not going to say it isn't well thought out or plausible, but I don't see it. To the younger generation, tobacco use is inherently sinful. It's pure poison. They've been conditioned from youth and the WHO is on the warpath.

The truly noble nature unwinds with cannabis. It's practically a mark of moral superiority.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Rusty » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:52 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:39 pm
FredS wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:56 pm
Does anyone see a more sensible attitude towards tobacco ahead? A century ago, we prohibited alcohol because it was agreed that abuse caused harm to families and 'society'. Shortly, however, saner minds realized the cure was worse than the disease and prohibition was lifted, but very restrictive laws were put in place to regulate the sale and consumption of hooch.

I've not studied the subject, but it seems that tobacco consuming cultures have seen benefits in it's use until perhaps 60 years ago. It's no secret that many of us benefit from moderate self-medicating with nicotine. Perhaps our grandchildren will swing back at processed cigarettes as we are doing right now with processed foods and 'natural' tobacco use will find a foothold.
Fred,

Interesting perspective. I'm not going to say it isn't well thought out or plausible, but I don't see it. To the younger generation, tobacco use is inherently sinful. It's pure poison. They've been conditioned from youth and the WHO is on the warpath.

The truly noble nature unwinds with cannabis. It's practically a mark of moral superiority.
It is pure poison. Burning an organic material produces a cascade of carcinogens. It's almost certainly true of burning marijuana too. Decriminalizing marijuana use is one thing but allowing it to become a generally available commercial product is hypocritical given the experience with tobacco. Their short-term horizon may create a similar problem.

This is the problem with using most forms of tobacco, ie burning it. It's the carcinogens. All the chemicals are inherent in the material; they're not additives. I think the authorities will ride it into the ground as a generally available commercial offering. Then they will make it a controlled product, which it should be, and finally they will prohibit general commercial sales altogether. They won't ban use of the product but it will be expensive and hard to acquire. There will be possession limits. Smuggling will always be a problem. think of the way marijuana is now. Some folks will grow their own. But some nations will prohibit even that. Australia is a good example.

The pendulum has further to go yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSiJbhoA8zw

Second hand smoke....
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Last edited by Rusty on Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by durangopipe » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:08 pm

Regarding the "younger generation" and tobacco use:

I'm not sure what generation we're talking about, but my son is 41. He sees pipe smoking as a healthy alternative to cigarettes, and although he isn't into "hip," a lot of his hip colleagues are pipe smokers, and so are many in the generation younger than his.

They just might have the political clout to save fine tobacco, pipes and even cigars from extinction. As far as I'm concerned, the best thing that can happen would be for lack of demand, not regulation and taxation, to drive cigarettes and vaping to extinction in the US. Time will tell.

I choose to see the extension before imposition of the deeming regs as a glass half full.

Meanwhile, I'll keep stocking my cellar and bequeath the unsmoked leaf to my son.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Del » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:07 pm

Whom do we thank for this decision to delay the unnecessary regulation?
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Rusty » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:24 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:07 pm
Whom do we thank for this decision to delay the unnecessary regulation?
Scott Gottlieb. They're likely rewriting it.
Feeling oddly Catholic or Evangelical? Wanna lapse into a rant about Planned Parenthood? Maybe you just crave smoke. Try Vaping.
Somebody cue Vape_babe aka Child_of_God, Shriar_Bell, and Shell-Briar. Come forth! Yoooo hooo.... all is forgiven.

Wave nicely, Del.
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Del » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:43 pm

Rusty wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:24 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:07 pm
Whom do we thank for this decision to delay the unnecessary regulation?
Scott Gottlieb. They're likely rewriting it.
Feeling oddly Catholic or Evangelical? Wanna lapse into a rant about Planned Parenthood? Maybe you just crave smoke. Try Vaping.
Somebody cue Vape_babe aka Child_of_God, Shriar_Bell, and Shell-Briar. Come forth! Yoooo hooo.... all is forgiven.

Wave nicely, Del.
:wavey:
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Re: FDA postpones cigar and pipe tobacco rules

Post by Joshoowah » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:57 am

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:08 pm
Regarding the "younger generation" and tobacco use:

I'm not sure what generation we're talking about, but my son is 41. He sees pipe smoking as a healthy alternative to cigarettes, and although he isn't into "hip," a lot of his hip colleagues are pipe smokers, and so are many in the generation younger than his.

They just might have the political clout to save fine tobacco, pipes and even cigars from extinction. As far as I'm concerned, the best thing that can happen would be for lack of demand, not regulation and taxation, to drive cigarettes and vaping to extinction in the US. Time will tell.

I choose to see the extension before imposition of the deeming regs as a glass half full.

Meanwhile, I'll keep stocking my cellar and bequeath the unsmoked leaf to my son.
I'm 31 and nearly everyone around my age thinks it's the worst thing the world has ever seen. People of my generation have been conditioned to view anything tobacco related negatively.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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