Our Lady of Guadalupe

[ATexanLostinVirginia]

I certainly wouldn't argue against the use of any and all imagery! I'm not positive I'd argue against the use of imagery at all... I am still very uncomfortable with praying to images, statues, etc... as I see that as a step more quickly leading to their worship, rather than just employing images as symbols, etc...

For one thing please understand that we don't ever use the words "praying to" in regards to the icons themselves. We always say "praying with icons" while remembering that the image itself (or the wood it is on) is not what we are venerating or praying to but rather the person it depicts.

I understand that - and I thank-you for restating it and clarifying.

My personal problem with that (at this point in my journey) is that rather than simply using icons, symbols, imagery to illustrate and help depict Christianity - this practice incorporates them into the actual worship of God - which makes it much more difficult not to fall into worhsip the icons, states, etc.. themselves rather than God.

If we have access to the Father, why go through an icon, or incorporate an icon into our worship of Him?

I actually love the imagery of the Catholic and Orthodox churches, but being raised as a baptist - it is still very hard for me to personally accept/incorporate iconography into my personal worship of God. It feels very "wrong" and unfocused on God to me.

I would not challenge your use of them - just explaining my background...

[Del]

I certainly wouldn't argue against the use of any and all imagery! I'm not positive I'd argue against the use of imagery at all... I am still very uncomfortable with praying to images, statues, etc... as I see that as a step more quickly leading to their worship, rather than just employing images as symbols, etc...

For one thing please understand that we don't ever use the words "praying to" in regards to the icons themselves. We always say "praying with icons" while remembering that the image itself (or the wood it is on) is not what we are venerating or praying to but rather the person it depicts.

And this is worth mentioning again: Praying to a saint, in conversation with another Christian, is not to be confused with the worship that we give to God alone.

Jesus is the only one who died for me and rose from the dead. Jesus is the only one who makes Himself present on the altar, and lets me receive Him into my heart.

Once I have that special relationship with Christ, I can safely "talk" with anyone I want -- even the Blessed Virgin/Theotokos -- and not get confused about who God is!

[ATexanLostinVirginia]

I certainly wouldn't argue against the use of any and all imagery! I'm not positive I'd argue against the use of imagery at all... I am still very uncomfortable with praying to images, statues, etc... as I see that as a step more quickly leading to their worship, rather than just employing images as symbols, etc...

For one thing please understand that we don't ever use the words "praying to" in regards to the icons themselves. We always say "praying with icons" while remembering that the image itself (or the wood it is on) is not what we are venerating or praying to but rather the person it depicts.

And this is worth mentioning again: Praying to a saint, in conversation with another Christian, is not to be confused with the worship that we give to God alone.

Jesus is the only one who died for me and rose from the dead. Jesus is the only one who makes Himself present on the altar, and lets me receive Him into my heart.

Once I have that special relationship with Christ, I can safely "talk" with anyone I want -- even the Blessed Virgin/Theotokos -- and not get confused about who God is!

I understand. Thanks for the clarification though.

[wosbald]

+JMJ+

Praise God for the Lady of Guadalupe, because many see the one true God in her and through her.

Now there's a simpering, weak-kneed, spongey, wavering, indecisive, watery, flaccid, dilute, tepid, vacillating, milquetoast, insipid liberal platitude, right there.

Do you agree with my statement?

I'm ambivalent.

[ATexanLostinVirginia]

I'm going to bed!

[Thunktank]

I certainly wouldn't argue against the use of any and all imagery! I'm not positive I'd argue against the use of imagery at all... I am still very uncomfortable with praying to images, statues, etc... as I see that as a step more quickly leading to their worship, rather than just employing images as symbols, etc...

For one thing please understand that we don't ever use the words "praying to" in regards to the icons themselves. We always say "praying with icons" while remembering that the image itself (or the wood it is on) is not what we are venerating or praying to but rather the person it depicts.

I understand that - and I thank-you for restating it and clarifying.

My personal problem with that (at this point in my journey) is that rather than simply using icons, symbols, imagery to illustrate and help depict Christianity - this practice incorporates them into the actual worship of God - which makes it much more difficult not to fall into worhsip the icons, states, etc.. themselves rather than God.

If we have access to the Father, why go through an icon, or incorporate an icon into our worship of Him?

I actually love the imagery of the Catholic and Orthodox churches, but being raised as a baptist - it is still very hard for me to personally accept/incorporate iconography into my personal worship of God. It feels very "wrong" and unfocused on God to me.

I would not challenge your use of them - just explaining my background...

I understand. I was raised a Baptist too. It was something I struggled with for some time, I really do understand what your saying here. That is why I often encourage these threads. In time, I hope we develope, with God's grace a proper compass in this regard. This issue alone keeps many other aspects of our faith from being heard.

Think of it this way. Baptists often pray the Psalms with the Bible on their lap. Obviously, they aren't praying to the Bible but to the God the words focus on. It's the same in regards to icons for the Orthodox. The other hard part for most Baptists is the asking for prayers by the saints that fell asleep (physically died). This is why I pointed out earlier in another post the Bible verse that states "God is God of the living, not the dead".

[TNLawPiper]

+JMJ+

Praise God for the Lady of Guadalupe, because many see the one true God in her and through her.

Now there's a simpering, weak-kneed, spongey, wavering, indecisive, watery, flaccid, dilute, tepid, vacillating, milquetoast, insipid liberal platitude, right there.

Do you agree with my statement?

I'm ambivalent.

[Thunktank]

+JMJ+

Praise God for the Lady of Guadalupe, because many see the one true God in her and through her.

Now there's a simpering, weak-kneed, spongey, wavering, indecisive, watery, flaccid, dilute, tepid, vacillating, milquetoast, insipid liberal platitude, right there.

Do you agree with my statement?

I'm ambivalent.

You see folks, Wos is a genius all day, but after 10 pm he has the social aptitude of a cuddly grizzly bear to go with it!

[John-Boy]

We've got a great guadalupe recipe. The trick is to use fresh avagadros.

[Skip]

Have you started again?

[John-Boy]

Horray!

[ATexanLostinVirginia]

I certainly wouldn't argue against the use of any and all imagery! I'm not positive I'd argue against the use of imagery at all... I am still very uncomfortable with praying to images, statues, etc... as I see that as a step more quickly leading to their worship, rather than just employing images as symbols, etc...

For one thing please understand that we don't ever use the words "praying to" in regards to the icons themselves. We always say "praying with icons" while remembering that the image itself (or the wood it is on) is not what we are venerating or praying to but rather the person it depicts.

I understand that - and I thank-you for restating it and clarifying.

My personal problem with that (at this point in my journey) is that rather than simply using icons, symbols, imagery to illustrate and help depict Christianity - this practice incorporates them into the actual worship of God - which makes it much more difficult not to fall into worhsip the icons, states, etc.. themselves rather than God.

If we have access to the Father, why go through an icon, or incorporate an icon into our worship of Him?

I actually love the imagery of the Catholic and Orthodox churches, but being raised as a baptist - it is still very hard for me to personally accept/incorporate iconography into my personal worship of God. It feels very "wrong" and unfocused on God to me.

I would not challenge your use of them - just explaining my background...

I understand. I was raised a Baptist too. It was something I struggled with for some time, I really do understand what your saying here. That is why I often encourage these threads. In time, I hope we develope, with God's grace a proper compass in this regard. This issue alone keeps many other aspects of our faith from being heard.

Think of it this way. Baptists often pray the Psalms with the Bible on their lap. Obviously, they aren't praying to the Bible but to the God the words focus on. It's the same in regards to icons for the Orthodox. The other hard part for most Baptists is the asking for prayers by the saints that fell asleep (physically died). This is why I pointed out earlier in another post the Bible verse that states "God is God of the living, not the dead".

Thanks for the extra clarification.

I really enjoy these threads and learning about the different beliefs of other Christians as well...

That's a fair analogy - I'm still not sure that it does it for me - but I see where you're coming from. I certainly wouldn't condemn the use of icons, or question the faith of those who use them - I'm just saying that I can see where more problems would arise from using them in such a way - than from not using them. In other words, if I were to go plant a church today - I might not have an empty "undecorated" sanctuary, but I'm not going to encourage anyone to pray with icons, etc...

[Del]

Back to Our Lady of Gaudalupe:

Popular Catholic blogger, Fr. Z, dug up a recent news article (Catholic News Agency) that talks about some of the miracles and mysteries related to the tilma of Juan Diego.

Short and interesting

[Thunktank]

Idol worshippers

I feel mute and inarticulate, my Luxurious Lord, when I want to express Your stability and all Your fullness. Therefore, I beseech the entire universe to kneel down with me and speak in my stead, since I am incapable and inarticulate.

I build stone altars for You, O stone Foundation of my hope. And the arrogant sons of the world, who pretend to be nearer neighbors to You than Your saints, ridicule me: "Look at the pagan, who would rather worship stone than the Lord!"

Truly, I am not worshiping stone, but rather I, together with stone, am worshiping the Living Lord. For stone is also distant from the Lord and is in need of salvation. Sin has made me more impure than stone before the face of Heaven. May the stone be saved together with me, and may it, as a symbol of stability help my feeble words to express the stability of God's justice. Therefore, I embrace stone as a companion in the Fall and as a companion in prayer and salvation.

I light oil and wax on the stone altar, O Inextinguishable Light. And the arrogant puff themselves up and exclaim:

"Look at the superstitious man, who does not know that God is spirit!"

Your servant, O Lord, knows that You are spirit, but he also knows of Your mercy towards all flesh. And so when I see the radiant oil and fragrant wax, I say to myself: "How are you better than oil or wax? Oil and wax at midnight, like the sun at noon, represent the glory of the Lord more clearly than your tongue. Let them be your help in prayer. Let them be your companions in prayer and salvation."

I adorn Your altar with wooden icons, golden crosses, silver seraphim, silk brocades, and books of salvation bound in leather. And I prostrate myself before Your embellished altars. But the arrogant laugh at me and say: "Look at the idol-worshiper, who does not worship the Lord but mute objects!"

Nevertheless, You know, my only Idol, that I am worshiping You alone. But so that arrogance may not engulf my heart and delay my salvation, I call upon tree and plant, resins and animals, to cry out together with me to You, each in its own language. Indeed, all creatures and all creation are in need of salvation, therefore, all also need to join in prayer with man, who led creation into sin and leads it to salvation.

I consecrate bread and wine on Your altar, and I nourish my soul with them. Let the arrogant ridicule me to the end of time, and I shall not be ashamed of my desire to have You for my food and drink, O my Life-giving Nourishment.

I worship before an altar of stone, so that I may learn to consider the entire universe the altar of the Most High.

I nourish myself with consecrated bread and wine at Your altar, so that I may learn to consider everything I eat to be Your holy body, and everything I drink to be Your holy blood.

I pray with all creation and for all creation, so that I may learn humility before You, and so that I may express all the mystery of my love for You, O all-embracing Love.

Whoa.