Our Lady of Guadalupe

We never get tired of hearing these tales.
User avatar
Skip
Everything in Moderatoration
Everything in Moderatoration
Posts: 24048
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:00 pm
Location: Slightly East of Pepik
Contact:

Post by Skip » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:24 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Del wrote:
AFRS wrote:Idol worshippers <redacted_emoji>
Iconoclasts. :evil:
Iconoclastic -- doesn't DuPont have the patent on that?
Perhaps you're thinking of Super Elastic Bubble Plastic™.
:wink:

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 35995
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:33 pm

Skip wrote:
Del wrote:
AFRS wrote:Idol worshippers <redacted_emoji>
Iconoclasts. :evil:
Iconoclastic -- doesn't DuPont have the patent on that?
Hmphf.

Monsanto has some moldable product for sacred statuary -- IconoPlaster.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

User avatar
Skip
Everything in Moderatoration
Everything in Moderatoration
Posts: 24048
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:00 pm
Location: Slightly East of Pepik
Contact:

Post by Skip » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:38 pm

Del wrote:
Skip wrote:
Del wrote:
AFRS wrote:Idol worshippers <redacted_emoji>
Iconoclasts. :evil:
Iconoclastic -- doesn't DuPont have the patent on that?
Hmphf.

Monsanto has some moldable product for sacred statuary -- IconoPlaster.
WOOT! ROTFL!

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 20904
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Ad Orientem

Post by Thunktank » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:58 pm

Speaking of Holy Women. Last night, we celebrated the memory of the saint of lights, Saint Lucia. Did anyone else?

This is a picture of the celebration from another parish in a different year:

Image
It’s almost believable, but I love it most of the time whether it’s true or not.

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 35995
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:12 pm

St. Lucy is patron of the blind. In Western iconography, she is portrayed holding her eyes on a platter. I don't know her hagiography exactly.... I believe her eyes were put out, as part of her martyrdom. Perhaps some stories say she was cured of this torture.

One of Pipeson's highschool classmates is a lovely young lady who is blind. Her class shared a devotion to St. Lucy.

The Orthodox celebration of the young virgin martyr looks joyful and beautiful! Thanks, Thunk!
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

User avatar
TheImpudent
Congregation
Congregation
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:00 pm

Post by TheImpudent » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:55 pm

AFRS wrote:Idol worshippers

I feel mute and inarticulate, my Luxurious Lord, when I want to express Your stability and all Your fullness. Therefore, I beseech the entire universe to kneel down with me and speak in my stead, since I am incapable and inarticulate.

I build stone altars for You, O stone Foundation of my hope. And the arrogant sons of the world, who pretend to be nearer neighbors to You than Your saints, ridicule me: "Look at the pagan, who would rather worship stone than the Lord!"

Truly, I am not worshiping stone, but rather I, together with stone, am worshiping the Living Lord. For stone is also distant from the Lord and is in need of salvation. Sin has made me more impure than stone before the face of Heaven. May the stone be saved together with me, and may it, as a symbol of stability help my feeble words to express the stability of God's justice. Therefore, I embrace stone as a companion in the Fall and as a companion in prayer and salvation.

I light oil and wax on the stone altar, O Inextinguishable Light. And the arrogant puff themselves up and exclaim:

"Look at the superstitious man, who does not know that God is spirit!"

Your servant, O Lord, knows that You are spirit, but he also knows of Your mercy towards all flesh. And so when I see the radiant oil and fragrant wax, I say to myself: "How are you better than oil or wax? Oil and wax at midnight, like the sun at noon, represent the glory of the Lord more clearly than your tongue. Let them be your help in prayer. Let them be your companions in prayer and salvation."

I adorn Your altar with wooden icons, golden crosses, silver seraphim, silk brocades, and books of salvation bound in leather. And I prostrate myself before Your embellished altars. But the arrogant laugh at me and say: "Look at the idol-worshiper, who does not worship the Lord but mute objects!"

Nevertheless, You know, my only Idol, that I am worshiping You alone. But so that arrogance may not engulf my heart and delay my salvation, I call upon tree and plant, resins and animals, to cry out together with me to You, each in its own language. Indeed, all creatures and all creation are in need of salvation, therefore, all also need to join in prayer with man, who led creation into sin and leads it to salvation.

I consecrate bread and wine on Your altar, and I nourish my soul with them. Let the arrogant ridicule me to the end of time, and I shall not be ashamed of my desire to have You for my food and drink, O my Life-giving Nourishment.

I worship before an altar of stone, so that I may learn to consider the entire universe the altar of the Most High.

I nourish myself with consecrated bread and wine at Your altar, so that I may learn to consider everything I eat to be Your holy body, and everything I drink to be Your holy blood.

I pray with all creation and for all creation, so that I may learn humility before You, and so that I may express all the mystery of my love for You, O all-embracing Love.

User avatar
ATexanLostinVirginia
i will pee on you
i will pee on you
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX

Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:28 pm

TheImpudent wrote:
AFRS wrote:Idol worshippers

I feel mute and inarticulate, my Luxurious Lord, when I want to express Your stability and all Your fullness. Therefore, I beseech the entire universe to kneel down with me and speak in my stead, since I am incapable and inarticulate.

I build stone altars for You, O stone Foundation of my hope. And the arrogant sons of the world, who pretend to be nearer neighbors to You than Your saints, ridicule me: "Look at the pagan, who would rather worship stone than the Lord!"

Truly, I am not worshiping stone, but rather I, together with stone, am worshiping the Living Lord. For stone is also distant from the Lord and is in need of salvation. Sin has made me more impure than stone before the face of Heaven. May the stone be saved together with me, and may it, as a symbol of stability help my feeble words to express the stability of God's justice. Therefore, I embrace stone as a companion in the Fall and as a companion in prayer and salvation.

I light oil and wax on the stone altar, O Inextinguishable Light. And the arrogant puff themselves up and exclaim:

"Look at the superstitious man, who does not know that God is spirit!"

Your servant, O Lord, knows that You are spirit, but he also knows of Your mercy towards all flesh. And so when I see the radiant oil and fragrant wax, I say to myself: "How are you better than oil or wax? Oil and wax at midnight, like the sun at noon, represent the glory of the Lord more clearly than your tongue. Let them be your help in prayer. Let them be your companions in prayer and salvation."

I adorn Your altar with wooden icons, golden crosses, silver seraphim, silk brocades, and books of salvation bound in leather. And I prostrate myself before Your embellished altars. But the arrogant laugh at me and say: "Look at the idol-worshiper, who does not worship the Lord but mute objects!"

Nevertheless, You know, my only Idol, that I am worshiping You alone. But so that arrogance may not engulf my heart and delay my salvation, I call upon tree and plant, resins and animals, to cry out together with me to You, each in its own language. Indeed, all creatures and all creation are in need of salvation, therefore, all also need to join in prayer with man, who led creation into sin and leads it to salvation.

I consecrate bread and wine on Your altar, and I nourish my soul with them. Let the arrogant ridicule me to the end of time, and I shall not be ashamed of my desire to have You for my food and drink, O my Life-giving Nourishment.

I worship before an altar of stone, so that I may learn to consider the entire universe the altar of the Most High.

I nourish myself with consecrated bread and wine at Your altar, so that I may learn to consider everything I eat to be Your holy body, and everything I drink to be Your holy blood.

I pray with all creation and for all creation, so that I may learn humility before You, and so that I may express all the mystery of my love for You, O all-embracing Love.
The Hebrews tried to worship God in this way, and He strictly forbade it.

The use of material objects to depict God and aid in our worship of Him may seem innocent, but Humanity always tends toward the worship of the material representations, rather than the True God.

Aaron and the Israelites did not create a Golden Calf to worship some new God, they created the Golden Calf to represent Yahweh, the True God who split the sea and delivered them from the Egyptians; Yet, they were judged very harshly by God for created the calf and directly diobeying his commandment to form no graven images.

I think you line of reasoning is good, and that your argument makes perfect sense, it even seems right and proper - a righteous way to honor our Creator and God. However, God has forbade it and condemned it.

**This speaks to the post by "TheImpudent" and is not intended as commentary on the issue of Mary or Icons in the Catholic Church.
+1836+

"On land, on sea, at home abroad
I smoke my pipe and worship God."
-Johann Sebastian Bach

http://www.tobaccocellar.org/tinlist.php?cellar=1024

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 35995
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:58 pm

You're a very humble Impudent!
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

User avatar
Bigwill
Near! Far!
Near! Far!
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Woodstock, IL
Contact:

Post by Bigwill » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:34 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:The Hebrews tried to worship God in this way, and He strictly forbade it.

The use of material objects to depict God and aid in our worship of Him may seem innocent, but Humanity always tends toward the worship of the material representations, rather than the True God.

Aaron and the Israelites did not create a Golden Calf to worship some new God, they created the Golden Calf to represent Yahweh, the True God who split the sea and delivered them from the Egyptians; Yet, they were judged very harshly by God for created the calf and directly diobeying his commandment to form no graven images.

I think you line of reasoning is good, and that your argument makes perfect sense, it even seems right and proper - a righteous way to honor our Creator and God. However, God has forbade it and condemned it.

**This speaks to the post by "TheImpudent" and is not intended as commentary on the issue of Mary or Icons in the Catholic Church.
On what do you base your assumption that the Hebrews were trying to worship God by making the golden calf? By all accounts that I've ever come across, the thinking is that they were borrowing pagan worship from the Egyptians by whom they had been enslaved. The calf (or bull) was a sign of strength and verility--and the pagan religions always divinized the notions of wealth, power, and sexuality (kind of like a certain 21st century American culture that I am a part of).

One of the primary reasons that I disagree with your (simplistic--and I don't mean to use that term pejoratively) reading of "graven images" is that if God meant what you interpret him to mean, then he would be commanding mortal sin when he provided the instructions for the Ark of the Covenant. It would be contrary to God's nature for him to command sin. It is not the making of graven images per se that is sinful, but rather the worship of them.
And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good? Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

User avatar
Bigwill
Near! Far!
Near! Far!
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Woodstock, IL
Contact:

Post by Bigwill » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:36 pm

AFRS wrote:Idol worshippers <redacted_emoji>
Judge not lest ye be judged . . . I think I've heard that somewhere before . . .

(This is not only a false allegation, but is also extremely uncharitable. If your goal is to evangelize and to bring Catholics out of sin, then there is a much more Christian--not to mention more effective--way to accomplish it. If your goal is to demean, then it's completely inappropriate. <redacted_emoji> indeed.)
And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good? Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 20904
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Ad Orientem

Post by Thunktank » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:40 pm

Del wrote:You're a very humble Impudent!
Just don't get him started on grammar use around here. :lol:

But that was a nice post Impudent.

This is a very sensitive subject and I know how strong feelings about this can run on both sides. Personally, and to no surprise I'm sure, I get quite angry at those men in the past that rejected the Orthodox faith and deprived their followers of the great blessings the veneration of Saints provide.

It is good to know that we are able to be transformed by the co-operation with the grace of God that brings us enough dignity that our Father in heaven would bestow such a privilege to those who run the race well. To think that he is willing to share His inheritance with us!

Spend enough time among the Orthodox churches, anyone will be touched in some special, other worldly way, often associated with the veneration of saints. Not just Mary, but of many saints, even saints who have yet to fall asleep in the Lord.

Literally, those icons we love to have around so much are windows into heaven. That "cloud of witnesses" is very real, I cannot tell you all times these saints have touched those I know in very real miraculous ways. They are there, they are aware of us, praying for us and ministering to us according to the will of God.

Of course God is to be the primary center of our worship. In Orthodoxy, we have our Prayers to the saints but each of them point to the Savior. The prayer our Tradition encourages as the prayer to have with us always is the "Jesus Prayer." Those who learn it to the fullest extent (which I have not) pray it constantly, even when saying something else. It becomes a life of prayer without ceasing and it comes from the depths of the heart.

Because we can live life in Christ we are blessed in so many ways. The saints are one of those great blessings we receive at the hands of our Father.

God is God of the living, not of the dead. And those saints who have fallen asleep in Christ are not dead! Believe me, they are very much alive!
It’s almost believable, but I love it most of the time whether it’s true or not.

TNLawPiper
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
Posts: 16961
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:27 pm

Can't we all just say "different strokes for different folks" and get along with it? Perhaps I say that only because I'm liberal.

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 20904
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Ad Orientem

Post by Thunktank » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:32 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:Can't we all just say "different strokes for different folks" and get along with it? Perhaps I say that only because I'm liberal.
Is there different Jesus' for different folks?

Liberals! <redacted_emoji> :lol:

(just kiddin with you, sort of, TNLP)
It’s almost believable, but I love it most of the time whether it’s true or not.

TNLawPiper
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
Posts: 16961
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:44 pm

Well, of course not! Even good liberals know that there are absolute truths!

I just don't imagine that God cares how we worship Him, as long as He remains our only worship. If I look at my yard and, in it, see the spoils of God's bounty, He is still magnified as much as if I kneel before an altar and imagine those spoils. If the Lady does it for Catholics, then praise God! I don't see how that's any more idolatrous than me envisioning the apostle Paul (saint, to some) penning his epistles, as long as we focus on the miracle being solely and completely from God.

Praise God for the Lady of Guadalupe, because many see the one true God in her and through her.

User avatar
Thoth
Never had a corndog taco shake
Never had a corndog taco shake
Posts: 12119
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Jersey City, World's Greatest City
Contact:

Post by Thoth » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:44 pm

I'm not sure if 've posted them elsewhere but this is 2 part podcast apologetic on the use of icons and how the fit in with the scripture (pt.1 deas with the OT and pt.2 the NT) I know its not really going to convince anyone but least to come to an understanding so we don't argue in circles the same points. At the very least the hosts are entertaining to listen to.

http://audio.ancientfaith.com/ourlife/icons1_092604.mp3
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/ourlife/icons2_100304.mp3


(or if you want here are program notes on the main points, pt. 1 notes and pt. 2 notes )




(they have another 4 podcasts that deal with icons if anyone is interested.)
Last edited by Thoth on Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Go and reconcile with him who has trespassed against you before he comes and apologises to you and steals your crown" - H.H. Pope Cyril VI<br><br>"O Lord I was not aware of the treasure within me that is You" - H.H. Pope Shenouda III

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 35995
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:48 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:Can't we all just say "different strokes for different folks" and get along with it? Perhaps I say that only because I'm liberal.
When a fine fellow like ATLIV suggests that God is offended by the statues and icons, he does so out of concern for the salvation of his Old Faith friends. It would be uncharitable for him not to mention this.

We are not offended by his comments, even if we feel compelled to disagree and explain.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

User avatar
ATexanLostinVirginia
i will pee on you
i will pee on you
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX

Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:07 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:I just don't imagine that God cares how we worship Him, as long as He remains our only worship.
That's an odd thought, considering that God devoted much of the Pentateuch to describe the proper ways in which the Israelites were to worship Him...
+1836+

"On land, on sea, at home abroad
I smoke my pipe and worship God."
-Johann Sebastian Bach

http://www.tobaccocellar.org/tinlist.php?cellar=1024

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18242
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Post by wosbald » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:11 pm

+JMJ+
TNLawPiper wrote:Praise God for the Lady of Guadalupe, because many see the one true God in her and through her.
Now there's a simpering, weak-kneed, spongey, wavering, indecisive, watery, flaccid, dilute, tepid, vacillating, milquetoast, insipid liberal platitude, right there.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
ATexanLostinVirginia
i will pee on you
i will pee on you
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX

Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:12 pm

Del wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:Can't we all just say "different strokes for different folks" and get along with it? Perhaps I say that only because I'm liberal.
When a fine fellow like ATLIV suggests that God is offended by the statues and icons, he does so out of concern for the salvation of his Old Faith friends. It would be uncharitable for him not to mention this.

We are not offended by his comments, even if we feel compelled to disagree and explain.
I would never go so far as to say that "God is offended by the statues and icons."

However, I would caution against the use of such things as part of worship. I would not recommend praying to or through a statue, image, figurine, etc... It can even be argued against the use of imagery and icons within the church sanctuary - as the churchgoers may confuse the worship of God with the worship of the imagery/icons. I'm not sure I'd go that far, however... such a line of thought leads to a rater drab santuary...

I look at the Israelites in the OT - and one of their main struggles was worshiping idols and adopting the gods of the cultures around them. We still adopt the gods of the cultures around us (materialism, etc.) - what makes us think that we have matured beyond falling prey to the worship of idols and graven images in place of God?
+1836+

"On land, on sea, at home abroad
I smoke my pipe and worship God."
-Johann Sebastian Bach

http://www.tobaccocellar.org/tinlist.php?cellar=1024

User avatar
ATexanLostinVirginia
i will pee on you
i will pee on you
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX

Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:14 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
TNLawPiper wrote:Praise God for the Lady of Guadalupe, because many see the one true God in her and through her.
Now there's a simpering, weak-kneed, spongey, wavering, indecisive, watery, flaccid, dilute, tepid, vacillating, milquetoast, insipid liberal platitude, right there.
that's quite a description!
+1836+

"On land, on sea, at home abroad
I smoke my pipe and worship God."
-Johann Sebastian Bach

http://www.tobaccocellar.org/tinlist.php?cellar=1024

Post Reply