#39 - First Bulldog!

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G00se22
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by G00se22 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:00 pm

I like the white part.
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Rusty » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:28 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:34 pm
Old GBD catalog (1961) with a bent bulldog and a bent Rhodesian.

Image

Bulldogs:
Image

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UncleBob wrote:A Rhodesian is a squat bulldog bowl; the shank is immaterial. So technically, MM's pipe is a bent rhodesian with a diamond shank.

-UB
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7541&p=166666#p166666

This is correct. What has happened to you? Or are you just making the point that there was confusion or that GBD was inconsistent with others? I made an accommodation with the American new definition HERE. But we should keep both. We can accept both. And we should explain both to new pipe smokers and pipe makers too.
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by UncleBob » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:44 pm

Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:28 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:34 pm
Old GBD catalog (1961) with a bent bulldog and a bent Rhodesian.

Image

Bulldogs:
Image

Click Here for Page
UncleBob wrote:A Rhodesian is a squat bulldog bowl; the shank is immaterial. So technically, MM's pipe is a bent rhodesian with a diamond shank.

-UB
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7541&p=166666#p166666

This is correct. What has happened to you? Or are you just making the point that there was confusion or that GBD was inconsistent with others? I made an accommodation with the American new definition HERE. But we should keep both. We can accept both.
I still stand by my old definition. Compare the two on the page.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Rusty » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:50 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:44 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:28 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:34 pm
Old GBD catalog (1961) with a bent bulldog and a bent Rhodesian.

Image

Bulldogs:
Image

Click Here for Page
UncleBob wrote:A Rhodesian is a squat bulldog bowl; the shank is immaterial. So technically, MM's pipe is a bent rhodesian with a diamond shank.

-UB
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7541&p=166666#p166666

This is correct. What has happened to you? Or are you just making the point that there was confusion or that GBD was inconsistent with others? I made an accommodation with the American new definition HERE. But we should keep both. We can accept both.
I still stand by my old definition. Compare the two on the page.
Which two and on which page?
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Jocose » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:52 pm

Great work!
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Rusty » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:00 pm

Skip wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:50 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:42 pm
BrianMadsen wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:35 pm
That is weird, because the shank is really the only thing that set the shapes apart. I can easily understand why the shape names were changed
That's exactly the American argument. But in fact that's not true. You've adopted the American redefinition and you're thinking in terms of that. You were just telling me that it has always been the definition. I provided evidence that this is not true. I think the shapes and their names pre-date Dunhill, but they're very likely British, so Dunhill probably didn't define the shapes, the names or the tradition. Dunhill was late on the scene actually. But these old pipe making companies are a link to our shared traditions. We never saw ISO/ANSI or any other standards body take on pipes and standardize anything. This is all from the 19th century. The really nice thing is that there is something more to learn about our shared traditions.

We lost an articulate historian for pipes and shapes in Jacques Cole who passed away in 2014. But I'll bet he would have something to say. When a Canadian tells you to be cautious about accepting everything the Americans tell us you should listen. As if a European needs to reminded of that! But you have been reminded.
What if an Irishman tells you to be cautious about a Canadian telling you to be cautious about accepting everything the Americans tell you? I think I might be cautious. And I'm not sure Rusty's Canadian. I'd be cautious there. All we have is his word for it.
Well, I think the conclusion is that you should be cautious. Do you think you could do that as SockPuppeh?
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Skip » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:05 pm

Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:00 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:50 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:42 pm
BrianMadsen wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:35 pm
That is weird, because the shank is really the only thing that set the shapes apart. I can easily understand why the shape names were changed
That's exactly the American argument. But in fact that's not true. You've adopted the American redefinition and you're thinking in terms of that. You were just telling me that it has always been the definition. I provided evidence that this is not true. I think the shapes and their names pre-date Dunhill, but they're very likely British, so Dunhill probably didn't define the shapes, the names or the tradition. Dunhill was late on the scene actually. But these old pipe making companies are a link to our shared traditions. We never saw ISO/ANSI or any other standards body take on pipes and standardize anything. This is all from the 19th century. The really nice thing is that there is something more to learn about our shared traditions.

We lost an articulate historian for pipes and shapes in Jacques Cole who passed away in 2014. But I'll bet he would have something to say. When a Canadian tells you to be cautious about accepting everything the Americans tell us you should listen. As if a European needs to reminded of that! But you have been reminded.
What if an Irishman tells you to be cautious about a Canadian telling you to be cautious about accepting everything the Americans tell you? I think I might be cautious. And I'm not sure Rusty's Canadian. I'd be cautious there. All we have is his word for it.
Well, I think the conclusion is that you should be cautious. Do you think you could do that as SockPuppeh?
I bet I can even do it as a guy from Florida.
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by UncleBob » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:29 pm

Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:50 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:44 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:28 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:34 pm
Old GBD catalog (1961) with a bent bulldog and a bent Rhodesian.

Image

Bulldogs:
Image

Click Here for Page
UncleBob wrote:A Rhodesian is a squat bulldog bowl; the shank is immaterial. So technically, MM's pipe is a bent rhodesian with a diamond shank.

-UB
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7541&p=166666#p166666

This is correct. What has happened to you? Or are you just making the point that there was confusion or that GBD was inconsistent with others? I made an accommodation with the American new definition HERE. But we should keep both. We can accept both.
I still stand by my old definition. Compare the two on the page.
Which two and on which page?
Either. Rhodesian is specialized language. Calling a squat bulldog either a "squat bulldog" or a "Rhodesian" is correct.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by DepartedLight » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:33 pm

Super schweet.
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Rusty » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:51 am

UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:29 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:50 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:44 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:28 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:34 pm
Old GBD catalog (1961) with a bent bulldog and a bent Rhodesian.

Image

Bulldogs:
Image

Click Here for Page
UncleBob wrote:A Rhodesian is a squat bulldog bowl; the shank is immaterial. So technically, MM's pipe is a bent rhodesian with a diamond shank.

-UB
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7541&p=166666#p166666

This is correct. What has happened to you? Or are you just making the point that there was confusion or that GBD was inconsistent with others? I made an accommodation with the American new definition HERE. But we should keep both. We can accept both.
I still stand by my old definition. Compare the two on the page.
Which two and on which page?
Either. Rhodesian is specialized language. Calling a squat bulldog either a "squat bulldog" or a "Rhodesian" is correct.
You're suggesting bending the language to make squat bulldog = rhodesian. But that doesn't really work. The two definitions are fixed on different features of the pipe to name the shape. This should not be hidden; this is the interesting part. There are of course some pipes that would yield the same shape class name but there are also shapes that yield different names. We're familiar with the British Bent Rhodesian which, if it has a diamond shank, becomes a Bent Bulldog in the American definition. But there are others, for example a round shank pipe with a Bulldog bowl. By the American definition this yields a Rhodesian but Dunhill called it a Scandinavian Bulldog (bottom right http://pipepages.com/dpsc8.htm ). This is a natural consequence of using different features to derive a name. And your squat bulldog = Rhodesian fails here.
Culturally it's a bit odd. After better than a century of the British naming convention the Americans get a bug in their ass and devise new naming. And then they fail to discuss it first with the Brits, before reaching for shape charts. So now we have young Danish pipe makers telling us that it has always been as the American definition dictates. LOL!

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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by DepartedLight » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:07 am

Man makes a good looking pipe.

CPS argues about the name of said good looking pipe.

Then the baby Jesus cries.
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by ReverendThom » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:21 am

That's a beautiful Rhodesian, Brian! Well done.
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Bloodhound » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:55 am

Great looking pipe...No matter what you call the shape...I like it!
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by wosbald » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:02 am

+JMJ+

Squat Bulldog = Rhodesian

Bulldog = Bulldog

Stacked Bulldog = Scandanavian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O8gTIr4lys




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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by BrianMadsen » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:12 am

Most of you are nerds :)
But rusty, if this pipe classifies as a bulldog on the old English shaping chart AND the new American chart, then why did you even bring it up for a debate?
Testing my knowledge, or just showing off?? 8)

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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by DepartedLight » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:21 am

BrianMadsen wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:12 am
Most of you are nerds :)
But rusty, if this pipe classifies as a bulldog on the old English shaping chart AND the new American chart, then why did you even bring it up for a debate?
Testing my knowledge, or just showing off?? 8)
He's in Canada. They really don't have much to do up there.
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by hugodrax » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:24 am

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Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by TwoXseveN » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:32 am

DepartedLight wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:07 am
Man makes a good looking pipe.

CPS argues about the name of said good looking pipe.

Then the baby Jesus cries.
+2/3.

Fine looking pipe!
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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Joshoowah » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:08 am

Next, we'll be arguing about how it should be called a Bulldesian.


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Re: #39 - First Bulldog!

Post by Bloodhound » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:36 pm

A Bulldog by any other name...
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