Reformation Day!

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Cliff » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:53 am

Going to lunch with my AA sponsor to celebrate. He left the Catholic church and is now a deacon at a Presbyterian church.
Last edited by Cliff on Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by UncleBob » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:59 am

Skip wrote:... you Protestant f^&&ers.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by gaining_age » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:06 am

UncleBob wrote:
Skip wrote:... you Protestant f^&&ers.

"Nailed it"
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2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by UncleBob » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:19 am

gaining_age wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Skip wrote:... you Protestant f^&&ers.

"Nailed it"
I see what you did there.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:31 am

Among the festivities at tonights Four Men Feast will be a burning of Martin Luther's 95 Theses: Disputation of Doctor Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences.

And maybe smoking some St. Bruno flake, if weather and such permits.

For those who are celebrating Reformation Day, here are the 95 Theses (so that you know that which you are celebrating):

OCTOBER 31, 1517

Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.
This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.
Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.
The penalty, therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.
The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.
God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.
The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.
This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.
In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.
The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.
This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.
With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.
It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.
Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.
Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.
Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;
Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.
If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.
It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.
The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.
The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].
It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.
Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.
No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.
Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.
They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.
Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;
For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.
They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.
Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.
Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.
True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].
Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.
Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.
Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;
Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.
Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.
Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.
Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.
Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.
Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.
Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.
Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.
The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.
They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.
Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.
It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.
That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.
Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.
St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;
For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.
On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.
The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.
Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.
Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.
But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.
He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!
But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!
The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.
But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.
To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.
We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.
It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.
We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.
To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.
The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.
This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.
To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."
Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"
Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"
Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"
Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"
Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"
Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"
"Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"
To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.
If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.
Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!
Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!
Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;
And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by UncleBob » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:49 am

Del wrote:A
For those who are celebrating Reformation Day, here are the 95 Theses (so that you know that which you are celebrating):
Well thank you, Del. We have no idea what Reformation Day is about. Now we do! Finally its not just about MLK! Yay!
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by coco » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:01 am

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Sola Scriptura! The Scripture Alone is the Standard
The doctrine that the Bible alone is the ultimate authority was the "Formal Principle" of the Reformation. In 1521 at the historic interrogation of Luther at the Diet of Worms, he declared his conscience to be captive to the Word of God saying, "Unless I am overcome with testimonies from Scripture or with evident reasons -- for I believe neither the Pope nor the Councils, since they have often erred and contradicted one another -- I am overcome by the Scripture texts which I have adduced, and my conscience is bound by God's Word." Similarly, the Belgic Confession stated, "We believe that [the] holy Scriptures fully contain the will of God, and that whatsoever man ought to believe unto salvation is sufficiently taught therein...Neither may we consider any writings of men, however holy these men may have been, of equal value with those divine Scriptures nor ought we to consider custom or the great multitude, or antiquity, or succession of times and persons, or councils, decrees or statutes, as of equal value with the truth of God... Therefore, we reject with all our hearts whatsoever does not agree with this infallible rule" (VII).

As the Scripture says,
Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Thy law....I will bow down toward Thy holy temple, And give thanks to Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and Thy truth; For Thou hast magnified Thy word according to all Thy name....You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (Psalm 119:18; Psalm 138:2; II Tim. 3:14-17)


Soli Deo Gloria! For the Glory of God Alone
The Reformation reclaimed the Scriptural teaching of the sovereignty of God over every aspect of the believer's life. All of life is to be lived to the glory of God. As the Westminster Shorter Catechism asks, "What is the chief end of man? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever." This great and all consuming purpose was emphasized by those in the 16th and 17th Centuries who sought to reform the church according to the Word of God. In contrast to the monastic division of life into sacred versus secular perpetuated by Roman Church, the reformers saw all of life to be lived under the Lordship of Christ. Every activity of the Christian is to be sanctified unto the glory of God.

As the Scripture says,
Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God; Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God; whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (1CO 10:31; 1PE 4:11; REV 1:6; 2PE 3:1; EPH 3:21; REV 7:12; ROM 11:36)


Solo Christo! By Christ's Work Alone are We Saved
The Reformation called the church back to faith in Christ as the sole mediator between God and man. While the Roman church held that "there is a purgatory and that the souls there detained are helped by the intercessions of the faithful" and that "Saints are to be venerated and invoked;" "that their relics are to be venerated" -- the reformers taught that salvation was by Christ's work alone. As John Calvin said in the Institutes of the Christian Religion, "Christ stepped in, took the punishment upon himself and bore the judgment due to sinners. With his own blood he expiated the sins which made them enemies of God and thereby satisfied him...we look to Christ alone for divine favour and fatherly love!" Likewise the Heidelberg Catechism, Question 30 asks, "Do such then believe in Jesus the only Saviour who seek their salvation and happiness in saints, in themselves, or anywhere else? They do not; for though they boast of him in words yet in deeds they deny Jesus the only deliverer and Saviour: for one of these two things must be true that either Jesus is not a complete Saviour or that they who by a true faith receive this Saviour must find all things in him necessary to their salvation."

As the Scripture says,
There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time...For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. (1TI 2:5-6; COL 1:13-18)


Sola Gratia! Salvation by Grace Alone
A central cry of the Reformation was salvation by grace. Though the Roman church taught that Mass is a "sacrifice [which] is truly propitiatory" and that by the Mass "God...grant us grace and the gift of penitence, remits our faults and even our enormous sins" -- the reformers returned to the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. Our righteous standing before God is imputed to us by grace because of the work of Christ Jesus our Lord. In contrast to the doctrines of self-merit taught by Rome, sola gratia and the accompanying doctrines of grace -- total depravity, unconditional election, particular redemption, and perseverance of the saints -- were preached by all the reformers throughout the Protestant movement. As the Baptist Confession of 1689 says, "Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf;...their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners."

As the Scripture says,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. (Ephesians 1:3-8)


Sola Fide! Justification by Faith Alone
The "Material Principle" of the Reformation was justification by faith alone. As the Westminster Confession of Faith says, "Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love." The Genevan Confession likewise pointed out the necessity of those justified living by faith saying, "We confess that the entrance which we have to the great treasures and riches of the goodness of God that is vouchsafed us is by faith; inasmuch as, in certain confidence and assurance of heart, we believe in the promises of the gospel, and receive Jesus Christ as he is offered to us by the Father and described to us by the Word of God (Genevan 11).

As the Scripture says,
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith." (Galatians 3:6-11)
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:14 am

UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:A
For those who are celebrating Reformation Day, here are the 95 Theses (so that you know that which you are celebrating):
Well thank you, Del. We have no idea what Reformation Day is about. Now we do! Finally its not just about MLK! Yay!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Something I am really bad at: I don't make enough opportunities to appreciate you and your clever and patient ripostes to my posts.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Rusty » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:14 am

Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:A
For those who are celebrating Reformation Day, here are the 95 Theses (so that you know that which you are celebrating):
Well thank you, Del. We have no idea what Reformation Day is about. Now we do! Finally its not just about MLK! Yay!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Something I am really bad at: I don't make enough opportunities to appreciate you and your clever and patient ripostes to my posts.
This and the rest is a big improvement on your usual disapproving contributions.... Now all you have to do is admit that the reformation was a watershed event that changed the world for the better. C'mon.... 8)
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You're out of the dark
You're out of the night
Step into the sun
Step into the light

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by jruegg » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:41 am

jruegg wrote:Does the Catholic Church actually do any of the things Luther brought to their attention in the 95 theses?
A year later I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:51 am

Rusty wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:A
For those who are celebrating Reformation Day, here are the 95 Theses (so that you know that which you are celebrating):
Well thank you, Del. We have no idea what Reformation Day is about. Now we do! Finally its not just about MLK! Yay!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Something I am really bad at: I don't make enough opportunities to appreciate you and your clever and patient ripostes to my posts.
This and the rest is a big improvement on your usual disapproving contributions.... Now all you have to do is admit that the reformation was a watershed event that changed the world for the better. C'mon.... 8)
Changed the world, absolutely. For the better? -- Continues to be a matter of bitter debate.

But one point is certain: If you love capitalism (and who doesn't?), then thank a Protestant.

The shattering of Christendom and the dissolution of the monasteries rather forced Europe to switch from a society based upon charity to a culture motivated by greed. We are heirs to that, for better and for worse.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:12 am

jruegg wrote:
jruegg wrote:Does the Catholic Church actually do any of the things Luther brought to their attention in the 95 theses?
A year later I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.
1) The sin of simony ("selling indulgences") was tolerated and became a widespread practice. This was a scandal equivalent to the recently modern toleration of priests who sexually abused the boys in their trust. Neither sin was ever "done" as a doctrine of faith... both were failures to live up to what we believe. Luther was right to condemn the simony.

2) Luther attacked the doctrines of Purgatory and indulgences. A lot of Luther's screed attacks those notions. Catholicism still believes that God's mercy is satisfied by the salvation of a soul, and God's justice is satisfied by a process of purification which perfects the soul and heals us of our disordered attachments. The Church also possesses a treasury of graces which can be measured out to encourage good and pious works by the faithful, which aid the process of purification while a soul is still on this side of death.

3) Luther pushed his theology of "justification by faith alone," which was declared heretical according to his formulation. Catholicism still teaches that we have free will and that we are responsible for our own actions.... and so our good works are part of the cause for our final salvation, and not merely a sign that follows after salvation.

4) Luther attacks the notion that the Successor of Peter has any authority to correct his errors or to admonish his sinful pride. Luther insists that he has his Bible, and that he is entitled to his own personal interpretation of the Scriptures. Catholicism still insists that Jesus gave Peter a unique authority as his Steward, and that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to respect that authority in Peter's successors.
========================================

Short answer: The Counter-Reformation and the Council of Trent undertook two tasks.
1) Condemning the errors that Luther taught.
2) Correcting the sins that triggered the revolt. Not just selling indulgences, but also the worldly wealth and prestige that was attached to lordly positions, such as certain bishops enjoyed that kept them close to the kings and emperors.

Simony is very hard to find anymore in Catholicism. You can't even buy or sell a relic of a Saint. These must be gifted.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Eric » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:07 pm

Del wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:A
For those who are celebrating Reformation Day, here are the 95 Theses (so that you know that which you are celebrating):
Well thank you, Del. We have no idea what Reformation Day is about. Now we do! Finally its not just about MLK! Yay!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Something I am really bad at: I don't make enough opportunities to appreciate you and your clever and patient ripostes to my posts.
This and the rest is a big improvement on your usual disapproving contributions.... Now all you have to do is admit that the reformation was a watershed event that changed the world for the better. C'mon.... 8)
Changed the world, absolutely. For the better? -- Continues to be a matter of bitter debate.
Lacking all bitterness: Though not in agreement with it, I certainly understand most of your position and understand that you don't see Reformation Day to be something "celebrated" but I do think there is room for private/personal gratitude for the Reformation even by staunch Catholics in that the Reformation did prompt the Council of Trent which I believe you would view or have viewed (if you lived at that time and were able to see the Church at that time) as a very good thing for Catholics.

My Favorite Martin Luther Thesis...

1. When our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, said “Repent”, He called for the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.

36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.

37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.

43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;

45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.

54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.

62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.

94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;

95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by jruegg » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:52 pm

Del wrote:
jruegg wrote:
jruegg wrote:Does the Catholic Church actually do any of the things Luther brought to their attention in the 95 theses?
A year later I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.
1) The sin of simony ("selling indulgences") was tolerated and became a widespread practice. This was a scandal equivalent to the recently modern toleration of priests who sexually abused the boys in their trust. Neither sin was ever "done" as a doctrine of faith... both were failures to live up to what we believe. Luther was right to condemn the simony.

2) Luther attacked the doctrines of Purgatory and indulgences. A lot of Luther's screed attacks those notions. Catholicism still believes that God's mercy is satisfied by the salvation of a soul, and God's justice is satisfied by a process of purification which perfects the soul and heals us of our disordered attachments. The Church also possesses a treasury of graces which can be measured out to encourage good and pious works by the faithful, which aid the process of purification while a soul is still on this side of death.

3) Luther pushed his theology of "justification by faith alone," which was declared heretical according to his formulation. Catholicism still teaches that we have free will and that we are responsible for our own actions.... and so our good works are part of the cause for our final salvation, and not merely a sign that follows after salvation.

4) Luther attacks the notion that the Successor of Peter has any authority to correct his errors or to admonish his sinful pride. Luther insists that he has his Bible, and that he is entitled to his own personal interpretation of the Scriptures. Catholicism still insists that Jesus gave Peter a unique authority as his Steward, and that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to respect that authority in Peter's successors.
========================================

Short answer: The Counter-Reformation and the Council of Trent undertook two tasks.
1) Condemning the errors that Luther taught.
2) Correcting the sins that triggered the revolt. Not just selling indulgences, but also the worldly wealth and prestige that was attached to lordly positions, such as certain bishops enjoyed that kept them close to the kings and emperors.

Simony is very hard to find anymore in Catholicism. You can't even buy or sell a relic of a Saint. These must be gifted.
So I guess Luther's 95 theses weren't all bad then, huh?
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by coco » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:28 pm

jruegg wrote:
Del wrote:
jruegg wrote:
jruegg wrote:Does the Catholic Church actually do any of the things Luther brought to their attention in the 95 theses?
A year later I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.
1) The sin of simony ("selling indulgences") was tolerated and became a widespread practice. This was a scandal equivalent to the recently modern toleration of priests who sexually abused the boys in their trust. Neither sin was ever "done" as a doctrine of faith... both were failures to live up to what we believe. Luther was right to condemn the simony.

2) Luther attacked the doctrines of Purgatory and indulgences. A lot of Luther's screed attacks those notions. Catholicism still believes that God's mercy is satisfied by the salvation of a soul, and God's justice is satisfied by a process of purification which perfects the soul and heals us of our disordered attachments. The Church also possesses a treasury of graces which can be measured out to encourage good and pious works by the faithful, which aid the process of purification while a soul is still on this side of death.

3) Luther pushed his theology of "justification by faith alone," which was declared heretical according to his formulation. Catholicism still teaches that we have free will and that we are responsible for our own actions.... and so our good works are part of the cause for our final salvation, and not merely a sign that follows after salvation.

4) Luther attacks the notion that the Successor of Peter has any authority to correct his errors or to admonish his sinful pride. Luther insists that he has his Bible, and that he is entitled to his own personal interpretation of the Scriptures. Catholicism still insists that Jesus gave Peter a unique authority as his Steward, and that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to respect that authority in Peter's successors.
========================================

Short answer: The Counter-Reformation and the Council of Trent undertook two tasks.
1) Condemning the errors that Luther taught.
2) Correcting the sins that triggered the revolt. Not just selling indulgences, but also the worldly wealth and prestige that was attached to lordly positions, such as certain bishops enjoyed that kept them close to the kings and emperors.

Simony is very hard to find anymore in Catholicism. You can't even buy or sell a relic of a Saint. These must be gifted.
So I guess Luther's 95 theses weren't all bad then, huh?
With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication...
So, I take it that they were a little iffy.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Cleon » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:32 pm

Not necessarily unique to the Reformation, but it's where we come from:

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Eric » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:41 am

Cleon wrote:Not necessarily unique to the Reformation, but it's where we come from:

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
Amen.
First who smelt it, dealt it!

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by John-Boy » Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:26 am

Eric wrote:
Cleon wrote:Not necessarily unique to the Reformation, but it's where we come from:

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
Amen.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:12 am

Happy Reformation Day!

Even the Pope is celebrating
Asked what Catholics can learn from Lutherans and what they should value of the Lutheran tradition, Pope Francis responded, "Two words come to my mind: reform and Scripture."
At a "difficult time for the church," Martin Luther tried "to remedy a complex situation," the pope said, but for a variety of reasons, including political pressure, his reform movement triggered the division of the church. But Luther's intuition was not altogether wrong, the pope said, because the church is called to be "'semper reformanda' (always reforming)."
Amen
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Jocose » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:29 am

Was the reformation necessary?


There is a funny story about a Protestant who wanted to convert to Orthodoxy. He runs up to an Orthodox priest and says: “I’m a Protestant, what must I do to become Orthodox?” The priest answered: “You must give up your Roman Catholicism!” The point here is that many of the problems in Protestant doctrine and worship reflect its origins in Roman Catholicism. It also reflects the fact that Western Christianity has broken from its patristic roots in the early Church. Another way of putting it is that Protestants are innocent victims of Rome’s errors and innovations.
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