Reformation Day!

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Cleon
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Cleon » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:36 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
Yes. Very interesting.
As these few quotes indicate, Luther held the Ethiopian Church in great esteem. Uncorrupted by the Roman papacy, Ethiopian Christianity, according to Luther, possessed apostolic practices which were absent in Roman Catholicism and which Protestants would “adopt” through their own reading of Scripture: communion in both kinds, vernacular Scripture, and married clergy. Absent, meanwhile, within the Church in Ethiopia were European practices then under critique by various Protestant reformers: the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, indulgences, purgatory, and marriage as a sacrament.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:32 am

Jocose wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:37 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
There was no reformation in the Orthodox Church, Ethiopian or otherwise.

Orthodox Christianity, proclaiming the truth since 33 AD.

Come and see!
It would be more accurate to say that there was no reformation on the same scale that there was in the west, but there have certainly been reforms within the Orthodox Church as well as reformation movements. You can read about those:

Here: Church reform of Peter the Great

Here: The other Reformation you never heard about- Eastern Orthodox Reformation

Here: Reformation Within Eastern Orthodoxy

And here: "There are four Reformed Orthodox Churches in Eastern Christianity"

Click and see!
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:55 am

Cleon wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
Yes. Very interesting.
As these few quotes indicate, Luther held the Ethiopian Church in great esteem. Uncorrupted by the Roman papacy, Ethiopian Christianity, according to Luther, possessed apostolic practices which were absent in Roman Catholicism and which Protestants would “adopt” through their own reading of Scripture: communion in both kinds, vernacular Scripture, and married clergy. Absent, meanwhile, within the Church in Ethiopia were European practices then under critique by various Protestant reformers: the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, indulgences, purgatory, and marriage as a sacrament.
And yet -- There is no descendent denomination of the Protestant tradition which is even remotely like the Apostolic Church of the East.

The East thinks that Western Christians are crazy, with our Scholastics and our Solas and all of our development/invention of doctrines -- and persecuting other Christians to prove the superiority of our theology.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:14 am

Del wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:55 am
Cleon wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
Yes. Very interesting.
As these few quotes indicate, Luther held the Ethiopian Church in great esteem. Uncorrupted by the Roman papacy, Ethiopian Christianity, according to Luther, possessed apostolic practices which were absent in Roman Catholicism and which Protestants would “adopt” through their own reading of Scripture: communion in both kinds, vernacular Scripture, and married clergy. Absent, meanwhile, within the Church in Ethiopia were European practices then under critique by various Protestant reformers: the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, indulgences, purgatory, and marriage as a sacrament.
And yet -- There is no descendent denomination of the Protestant tradition which is even remotely like the Apostolic Church of the East.

The East thinks that Western Christians are crazy, with our Scholastics and our Solas and all of our development/invention of doctrines -- and persecuting other Christians to prove the superiority of our theology.
To be fair, that's a bit like saying there's no church in rural Mississippi remotely like the church in urban Shanghai. I'd be more interested in what the Ethiopian church thought of Luther's reform movement than I'd be of what Luther thought of the Ethiopian Church. Did the Ethiopian deacon approve? Did he think Luther was crazy because of the historic/cultural context he happened to be born in? I don't know, but I have my doubts.

I have found a ton of things to admire in the Eastern churches. Their smug, superiority toward others is usually what keeps my admiration at arms length. I don't think they are all smug. But I don't think Jocose's comments come from nowhere. He's certainly not the first EO condescension I've experienced.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:33 am

tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:14 am
Del wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:55 am
Cleon wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
Yes. Very interesting.
As these few quotes indicate, Luther held the Ethiopian Church in great esteem. Uncorrupted by the Roman papacy, Ethiopian Christianity, according to Luther, possessed apostolic practices which were absent in Roman Catholicism and which Protestants would “adopt” through their own reading of Scripture: communion in both kinds, vernacular Scripture, and married clergy. Absent, meanwhile, within the Church in Ethiopia were European practices then under critique by various Protestant reformers: the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, indulgences, purgatory, and marriage as a sacrament.
And yet -- There is no descendent denomination of the Protestant tradition which is even remotely like the Apostolic Church of the East.

The East thinks that Western Christians are crazy, with our Scholastics and our Solas and all of our development/invention of doctrines -- and persecuting other Christians to prove the superiority of our theology.
To be fair, that's a bit like saying there's no church in rural Mississippi remotely like the church in urban Shanghai. I'd be more interested in what the Ethiopian church thought of Luther's reform movement than I'd be of what Luther thought of the Ethiopian Church. Did the Ethiopian deacon approve? Did he think Luther was crazy because of the historic/cultural context he happened to be born in? I don't know, but I have my doubts.

I have found a ton of things to admire in the Eastern churches. Their smug, superiority toward others is usually what keeps my admiration at arms length. I don't think they are all smug. But I don't think Jocose's comments come from nowhere. He's certainly not the first EO condescension I've experienced.
I wouldn't call it "smug."

The Orthodox have a duty to preserve the ancient faith, handed down to them from the Apostles. It is suitable that they should bear this duty with some pride, for it is good work.

This is identical to the pride among Bible Christians in their zeal to be as "biblical" as possible, in striving to imitate and "restore" the Church to its original status as a mustard seed.

Catholics can be the same way. It is all rather cute, really.

And it doesn't matter. The only test of a religion is whether or not is it TRUE. There are always going to be jerks in even best religion; we must not let them deter us from Godliness.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:41 am

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:33 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:14 am
Del wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:55 am
Cleon wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
Yes. Very interesting.
As these few quotes indicate, Luther held the Ethiopian Church in great esteem. Uncorrupted by the Roman papacy, Ethiopian Christianity, according to Luther, possessed apostolic practices which were absent in Roman Catholicism and which Protestants would “adopt” through their own reading of Scripture: communion in both kinds, vernacular Scripture, and married clergy. Absent, meanwhile, within the Church in Ethiopia were European practices then under critique by various Protestant reformers: the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, indulgences, purgatory, and marriage as a sacrament.
And yet -- There is no descendent denomination of the Protestant tradition which is even remotely like the Apostolic Church of the East.

The East thinks that Western Christians are crazy, with our Scholastics and our Solas and all of our development/invention of doctrines -- and persecuting other Christians to prove the superiority of our theology.
To be fair, that's a bit like saying there's no church in rural Mississippi remotely like the church in urban Shanghai. I'd be more interested in what the Ethiopian church thought of Luther's reform movement than I'd be of what Luther thought of the Ethiopian Church. Did the Ethiopian deacon approve? Did he think Luther was crazy because of the historic/cultural context he happened to be born in? I don't know, but I have my doubts.

I have found a ton of things to admire in the Eastern churches. Their smug, superiority toward others is usually what keeps my admiration at arms length. I don't think they are all smug. But I don't think Jocose's comments come from nowhere. He's certainly not the first EO condescension I've experienced.
I wouldn't call it "smug."

The Orthodox have a duty to preserve the ancient faith, handed down to them from the Apostles. It is suitable that they should bear this duty with some pride, for it is good work.

This is identical to the pride among Bible Christians in their zeal to be as "biblical" as possible, in striving to imitate and "restore" the Church to its original status as a mustard seed.

Catholics can be the same way. It is all rather cute, really.

And it doesn't matter. The only test of a religion is whether or not is it TRUE. There are always going to be jerks in even best religion; we must not let them deter us from Godliness.
I agree that it is the same kind of condescension I've viewed among Fundamentalists. I don't agree that it is cute. I also agree that there are jerks in even the best. Sometimes though, a tradition/teaching/culture, tends to give the jerks the match to light the fire. God knows there's a strain of Calvinism that does the same. It's probably why I'm quick to snipe at it when I encounter it elsewhere.

Hey, you coming to Missouri?
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:56 am

tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:41 am
Hey, you coming to Missouri?
Ow! I forgot to think about that!

A young friend wanted to try a turkey in his PBC (a trial turkey, before the big family performance at Thanksgiving). We had the party last weekend, along with a few other grill-enthusiasts. I made the rest of our mock-Thanksgiving dinner, as the other families are up to their eyeballs in little babies.

Let me talk with Mrs. Del about a road trip to visit Mom in Marshall soon.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:00 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:14 am
Del wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:55 am
Cleon wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:36 am
Yes. Very interesting.
As these few quotes indicate, Luther held the Ethiopian Church in great esteem. Uncorrupted by the Roman papacy, Ethiopian Christianity, according to Luther, possessed apostolic practices which were absent in Roman Catholicism and which Protestants would “adopt” through their own reading of Scripture: communion in both kinds, vernacular Scripture, and married clergy. Absent, meanwhile, within the Church in Ethiopia were European practices then under critique by various Protestant reformers: the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, indulgences, purgatory, and marriage as a sacrament.
And yet -- There is no descendent denomination of the Protestant tradition which is even remotely like the Apostolic Church of the East.

The East thinks that Western Christians are crazy, with our Scholastics and our Solas and all of our development/invention of doctrines -- and persecuting other Christians to prove the superiority of our theology.
To be fair, that's a bit like saying there's no church in rural Mississippi remotely like the church in urban Shanghai. I'd be more interested in what the Ethiopian church thought of Luther's reform movement than I'd be of what Luther thought of the Ethiopian Church. Did the Ethiopian deacon approve? Did he think Luther was crazy because of the historic/cultural context he happened to be born in? I don't know, but I have my doubts.
I know little-to-nothing about the Apostolic Church of the East, so I'm going to go under the assumption that they essentially fall within the Cathlodox orbit. Given that, there would certainly be enough correspondences for commonalities to emerge and for dialogue to occur. That is, until Luther explained that Jesus and the bread coexist (share a room, so to speak) in the Eucharist. I think it would be all bad after that.




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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:08 pm

wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:00 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:14 am
Del wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:55 am
Cleon wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:36 am
Yes. Very interesting.
As these few quotes indicate, Luther held the Ethiopian Church in great esteem. Uncorrupted by the Roman papacy, Ethiopian Christianity, according to Luther, possessed apostolic practices which were absent in Roman Catholicism and which Protestants would “adopt” through their own reading of Scripture: communion in both kinds, vernacular Scripture, and married clergy. Absent, meanwhile, within the Church in Ethiopia were European practices then under critique by various Protestant reformers: the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, indulgences, purgatory, and marriage as a sacrament.
And yet -- There is no descendent denomination of the Protestant tradition which is even remotely like the Apostolic Church of the East.

The East thinks that Western Christians are crazy, with our Scholastics and our Solas and all of our development/invention of doctrines -- and persecuting other Christians to prove the superiority of our theology.
To be fair, that's a bit like saying there's no church in rural Mississippi remotely like the church in urban Shanghai. I'd be more interested in what the Ethiopian church thought of Luther's reform movement than I'd be of what Luther thought of the Ethiopian Church. Did the Ethiopian deacon approve? Did he think Luther was crazy because of the historic/cultural context he happened to be born in? I don't know, but I have my doubts.
I know little-to-nothing about the Apostolic Church of the East, so I'm going to go under the assumption that they essentially fall within the Cathlodox orbit. Given that, there would certainly be enough correspondences for commonalities to emerge and for dialogue to occur. That is, until Luther explained that Jesus and the bread coexist (share a room, so to speak) in the Eucharist. I think it would be all bad after that.
The Orthodox are not afraid to call the Latins "heretics." And they have some grounds for doing so, starting with the filioque and on to condemning the scholastics for defining things that should not be defined.

As far as we Latins are concerned, the Orthodox are Apostolic Christians and small between is the gap that should be bridged:
CCC #838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
The anathemas of Trent list the many teachings from the Protestant fathers which must be un-said before full communion is possible. I suppose the Lutheran lady could "listen to what God tells you" by reading down the list. If she finds that she firmly believes one or more of those items, then she should not take the Eucharist in the Catholic Mass.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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