1st Century Bible fragment

For those deep thinkers out there.
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Hovannes
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1st Century Bible fragment

Post by Hovannes » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:56 pm


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Atom
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Post by Atom » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:00 pm

Really fecking kool!
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Post by Atom » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:04 pm

It'll be interesting to read the findings... I'll have to call my buddy at UNC CH...
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Post by StatHaldol » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:06 pm

Very cool indeed!
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Post by jruegg » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:35 pm

Atom wrote:Really fecking kool!
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Post by coco » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:05 pm

jruegg wrote:
Atom wrote:Really fecking kool!
:D
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Post by serapion » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:13 pm

I got to see fragment P52 (Gospel of John) when I visited the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin Ireland. It was a very holy moment for me.

The best part of finding things like this is it shuts the mouths of the Bible critics who say the scripture was corrupted by the church. They have not a shred of documentary evidence. (This would include Muslim apologists as well as liberal western "Bible scholars")
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Post by tuttle » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:43 pm

serapion wrote:The best part of finding things like this is it shuts the mouths of the Bible critics who say the scripture was corrupted by the church. They have not a shred of documentary evidence. (This would include Muslim apologists as well as liberal western "Bible scholars")
+1

I took a secular college course on religion some years back and I remember the professor tearing into the Scriptures and trying to put a wedge in the minds of students that it has been tampered with over years and years by both Christians and Muslims. He never said they were tampered with, but he kept saying 'how do we know they weren't' with a smug look. Then a kid raised his hand and said, "But what about the Dead Sea Scrolls and all that?" and the professor moved on to another subject.
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Post by jruegg » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:58 pm

tuttle wrote:
serapion wrote:The best part of finding things like this is it shuts the mouths of the Bible critics who say the scripture was corrupted by the church. They have not a shred of documentary evidence. (This would include Muslim apologists as well as liberal western "Bible scholars")
+1

I took a secular college course on religion some years back and I remember the professor tearing into the Scriptures and trying to put a wedge in the minds of students that it has been tampered with over years and years by both Christians and Muslims. He never said they were tampered with, but he kept saying 'how do we know they weren't' with a smug look. Then a kid raised his hand and said, "But what about the Dead Sea Scrolls and all that?" and the professor moved on to another subject.
+1 Take that Erhman!
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Post by jo533281 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:02 pm

jruegg wrote:
tuttle wrote:
serapion wrote:The best part of finding things like this is it shuts the mouths of the Bible critics who say the scripture was corrupted by the church. They have not a shred of documentary evidence. (This would include Muslim apologists as well as liberal western "Bible scholars")
+1

I took a secular college course on religion some years back and I remember the professor tearing into the Scriptures and trying to put a wedge in the minds of students that it has been tampered with over years and years by both Christians and Muslims. He never said they were tampered with, but he kept saying 'how do we know they weren't' with a smug look. Then a kid raised his hand and said, "But what about the Dead Sea Scrolls and all that?" and the professor moved on to another subject.
+1 Take that Erhman!
Erhman knows he's wrong. He worked at Princeton with Bruce Metzger (who till recently was the foremost expert on NT manuscripts in the States, I believe) and even co-authored a book with Metzger that even said the NT manuscripts are more or less reliable. When he speaks with an educated audience, he knows his shenanigans won't fly but with the popular audience he just makes crap up.
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Post by jj1015 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:32 am

serapion wrote:I got to see fragment P52 (Gospel of John) when I visited the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin Ireland. It was a very holy moment for me.

The best part of finding things like this is it shuts the mouths of the Bible critics who say the scripture was corrupted by the church. They have not a shred of documentary evidence. (This would include Muslim apologists as well as liberal western "Bible scholars")
I'm not aware of a single liberal critic who says the Scriptures in the New Testament were somehow corrupted by the Church messing with the texts or some such nonsense. Some disagree on who to translate the original to English, and there is a great deal of controversy about how to interpret them, how to date them and how they were written in the first place, but it's pretty much universally acknowledged (even by us liberal academic types) that the gospels didn't undergo any major revisions after they were written. There are some versions of Mark, if I recall off the top of my head, that have a different ending than what we're used to in the KJV and there are some scholars (both conservative and liberal, apparently) who question the authenticity of the "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" passage. Other than that, however, I'm not aware of any mainstream liberal allegations that the church rewrote the NT and I was educated by some VERY skeptical people. That doesn't of course mean there aren't some crazed radicals out there on the fringe I have been fortunate enough not to be exposed to, but I do try to keep up with the current trends.
I'm not trying to start a fight, btw -- it's just that we "liberals" tend to trigger enough controversy without inaccurate versions of what we believe being passed around.

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Post by jruegg » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:40 am

jj1015 wrote:
serapion wrote:I got to see fragment P52 (Gospel of John) when I visited the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin Ireland. It was a very holy moment for me.

The best part of finding things like this is it shuts the mouths of the Bible critics who say the scripture was corrupted by the church. They have not a shred of documentary evidence. (This would include Muslim apologists as well as liberal western "Bible scholars")
I'm not aware of a single liberal critic who says the Scriptures in the New Testament were somehow corrupted by the Church messing with the texts or some such nonsense. Some disagree on who to translate the original to English, and there is a great deal of controversy about how to interpret them, how to date them and how they were written in the first place, but it's pretty much universally acknowledged (even by us liberal academic types) that the gospels didn't undergo any major revisions after they were written. There are some versions of Mark, if I recall off the top of my head, that have a different ending than what we're used to in the KJV and there are some scholars (both conservative and liberal, apparently) who question the authenticity of the "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" passage. Other than that, however, I'm not aware of any mainstream liberal allegations that the church rewrote the NT and I was educated by some VERY skeptical people. That doesn't of course mean there aren't some crazed radicals out there on the fringe I have been fortunate enough not to be exposed to, but I do try to keep up with the current trends.
I'm not trying to start a fight, btw -- it's just that we "liberals" tend to trigger enough controversy without inaccurate versions of what we believe being passed around.
Read Bart Erhman. Then you will be “aware” of a single liberal critic who says the Scriptures in the New Testament were somehow corrupted by the Church messing with the texts. Of course, there are more who think this too.
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Post by Murf » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:47 am

It seems more the sofa scholars (aka common rabble) that always bring up authenticity issues with the Bible. They do it for obvious reasons. They are championed by the likes of Bill Maher, ... y'know self proclaimed TV experts.

But there are very smart, and educated people who pull for theories on scriptural shenanigans as jruegg has demonstrated. They are out there.
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