The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

For those deep thinkers out there.
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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by wosbald » Tue May 09, 2017 10:08 pm

+JMJ+
GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:45 pm
I liked this thread.
And I liked it when you still posted.

————————————————————————————————

Whoa! Lookie here …
wosbald wrote:
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Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get some time in on Zelda: Skyward Sword.

:P
And now, I just got into playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by GiantNinja » Tue May 09, 2017 10:10 pm

wosbald wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:08 pm
+JMJ+
GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:45 pm
I liked this thread.
And I liked it when you still posted.
I appreciate that. There are certainly things about this place that I miss.
And what is good, Phaedrus? And what is not good?
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue May 09, 2017 10:14 pm

GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:10 pm
wosbald wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:08 pm
+JMJ+
GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:45 pm
I liked this thread.
And I liked it when you still posted.
I appreciate that. There are certainly things about this place that I miss.
You're kind. I miss you, too, BGNW.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by GiantNinja » Tue May 09, 2017 10:19 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:14 pm
GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:10 pm
wosbald wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:08 pm
+JMJ+
GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:45 pm
I liked this thread.
And I liked it when you still posted.
I appreciate that. There are certainly things about this place that I miss.
You're kind. I miss you, too, BGNW.
:? You see me on fb all the time. :lol:
And what is good, Phaedrus? And what is not good?
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by Del » Wed May 10, 2017 6:06 am

GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:19 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:14 pm
GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:10 pm
wosbald wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:08 pm
+JMJ+
GiantNinja wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:45 pm
I liked this thread.
And I liked it when you still posted.
I appreciate that. There are certainly things about this place that I miss.
You're kind. I miss you, too, BGNW.
:? You see me on fb all the time. :lol:
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Re: Re:

Post by FredS » Wed May 10, 2017 6:47 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:54 pm
colton wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:25 pm
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

I wonder if this loose end will bring Biggie back.
I heard that if you say his name three times into a mirror, he'll appear.

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Re: Re:

Post by colton » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:36 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:54 pm
colton wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:25 pm
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

I wonder if this loose end will bring Biggie back.
I heard that if you say his name three times into a mirror, he'll appear.

Image

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colton colton colton
You rang?

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Re: Re:

Post by wosbald » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:15 am

+JMJ+
colton wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:36 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:54 pm
colton wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:25 pm
wosbald wrote: I wonder if this loose end will bring Biggie back.
I heard that if you say his name three times into a mirror, he'll appear.

Image

Image
colton colton colton
You rang?
Boom.




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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm

Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
It’s almost believable, but I love it most of the time whether it’s true or not.

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Re: Re:

Post by TNLawPiper » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:35 pm

colton wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:36 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:54 pm
colton wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:25 pm
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

I wonder if this loose end will bring Biggie back.
I heard that if you say his name three times into a mirror, he'll appear.

Image

Image
colton colton colton
You rang?
Good man! Welcome back. Stay awhile.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by infidel » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:37 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
Well how else is the universe supposed to develop from a chemical soup into us?
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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by John-Boy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
I thought death came as a result of the fall, after creation.
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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:41 pm

John-Boy wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
I thought death came as a result of the fall, after creation.
That's the curiosity. What death came? It appears to mean all death, which we know through natural revelation isn't true because we have dinosaur fossils from long before humans, and in fact, our biological pre human ancestors died too. So what death, what sort of life and to whom is the difficulty. The Bible and tradition is deafeningly silent on these questions, proabaly because the early apostles didn't know natural revelation well at all.

Did the impart of spirit at human creation also mysteriously include a new law of creation as well? There is nothing in us to suggest that to be so other than desire by some.
It’s almost believable, but I love it most of the time whether it’s true or not.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:57 pm

infidel wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:37 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
Well how else is the universe supposed to develop from a chemical soup into us?
I don't know, but how does it jive with the Garden of Eden?
It’s almost believable, but I love it most of the time whether it’s true or not.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by colton » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:12 pm

John-Boy wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
I thought death came as a result of the fall, after creation.
It sounds like Thunk was referring to life in a naturalistic sense (and I see that he clarified while I was typing this), but by correctly reorienting the discussion to a Biblical starting point, you got me to thinking…

Because love and submission are freely and perfectly given, Divine creativity doesn’t require death. The Father freely loves the Son, the Son freely returns this love to the Father from a position of perfect submission, and from that exchange the Holy Spirit proceeds, lovingly submissive to the will of the Father and the Son—the eternal, uncreated dynamism of the Godhead. Naturalistic creativity, in contrast, requires that less fit genes die so fitter genes can rule, and if we take Genesis at face value, death was a new concept introduced by the fall.

Rather than something entirely new, however, there is something fractal-like in the way this creativity-by-death proceeds from one generation to the next, with the triune God as its source, and it seems appropriate that Christ, having taken our human nature upon Himself, underwent physical death in order to reestablish perfect U***n with our Creator. Our salvation was effected from within the system, not imposed from without, and we escape the system (are saved) only by participating in His death, whereby we are restored as participants in the Divine creativity.

Could it be said, then, that evolution by natural selection entered the world by the fall? I dunno…something to chew on.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by Onyx » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:31 pm

colton wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:12 pm
John-Boy wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
I thought death came as a result of the fall, after creation.
It sounds like Thunk was referring to life in a naturalistic sense (and I see that he clarified while I was typing this), but by correctly reorienting the discussion to a Biblical starting point, you got me to thinking…

Because love and submission are freely and perfectly given, Divine creativity doesn’t require death. The Father freely loves the Son, the Son freely returns this love to the Father from a position of perfect submission, and from that exchange the Holy Spirit proceeds, lovingly submissive to the will of the Father and the Son—the eternal, uncreated dynamism of the Godhead. Naturalistic creativity, in contrast, requires that less fit genes die so fitter genes can rule, and if we take Genesis at face value, death was a new concept introduced by the fall.

Rather than something entirely new, however, there is something fractal-like in the way this creativity-by-death proceeds from one generation to the next, with the triune God as its source, and it seems appropriate that Christ, having taken our human nature upon Himself, underwent physical death in order to reestablish perfect U***n with our Creator. Our salvation was effected from within the system, not imposed from without, and we escape the system (are saved) only by participating in His death, whereby we are restored as participants in the Divine creativity.

Could it be said, then, that evolution by natural selection entered the world by the fall? I dunno…something to chew on.
Do you mean that bold part literally? If so, where could it fit on timeline? It seems inescapable that more than 99% all of the evolution that has ever happened was before humans began making moral choices.

If you mean it in some abstract way, and not literally, then I guess I just don't get what you might mean. Good to see you here, Colton!
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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by colton » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:13 pm

Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:31 pm
colton wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:12 pm
John-Boy wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
I thought death came as a result of the fall, after creation.
It sounds like Thunk was referring to life in a naturalistic sense (and I see that he clarified while I was typing this), but by correctly reorienting the discussion to a Biblical starting point, you got me to thinking…

Because love and submission are freely and perfectly given, Divine creativity doesn’t require death. The Father freely loves the Son, the Son freely returns this love to the Father from a position of perfect submission, and from that exchange the Holy Spirit proceeds, lovingly submissive to the will of the Father and the Son—the eternal, uncreated dynamism of the Godhead. Naturalistic creativity, in contrast, requires that less fit genes die so fitter genes can rule, and if we take Genesis at face value, death was a new concept introduced by the fall.

Rather than something entirely new, however, there is something fractal-like in the way this creativity-by-death proceeds from one generation to the next, with the triune God as its source, and it seems appropriate that Christ, having taken our human nature upon Himself, underwent physical death in order to reestablish perfect U***n with our Creator. Our salvation was effected from within the system, not imposed from without, and we escape the system (are saved) only by participating in His death, whereby we are restored as participants in the Divine creativity.

Could it be said, then, that evolution by natural selection entered the world by the fall? I dunno…something to chew on.
Do you mean that bold part literally? If so, where could it fit on timeline? It seems inescapable that more than 99% all of the evolution that has ever happened was before humans began making moral choices.

If you mean it in some abstract way, and not literally, then I guess I just don't get what you might mean. Good to see you here, Colton!
I'm not making an assertion, but I meant it literally as something to chew on. My focus, however, is more on looking for traces of God in creation, and less on fitting the Biblical account of creation to science. You're correct that the timeline is the fly in the ointment, since the overwhelming majority of scientists would say that evolution is the process by which the natural world proceeds and was humming along millennia before we arrived.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by colton » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:15 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:35 pm
Good man! Welcome back. Stay awhile.
Thanks! No promises, though. Life has been pretty demanding of my time lately.
Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:31 pm
Good to see you here, Colton!
Thanks! I had a couple of cigars with Bloodhound the other night and hearing him talk about the latest CPS goings on reminded me how much I like you knuckleheads.

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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by Del » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:50 pm

Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:31 pm
colton wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:12 pm
John-Boy wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
I thought death came as a result of the fall, after creation.
It sounds like Thunk was referring to life in a naturalistic sense (and I see that he clarified while I was typing this), but by correctly reorienting the discussion to a Biblical starting point, you got me to thinking…

Because love and submission are freely and perfectly given, Divine creativity doesn’t require death. The Father freely loves the Son, the Son freely returns this love to the Father from a position of perfect submission, and from that exchange the Holy Spirit proceeds, lovingly submissive to the will of the Father and the Son—the eternal, uncreated dynamism of the Godhead. Naturalistic creativity, in contrast, requires that less fit genes die so fitter genes can rule, and if we take Genesis at face value, death was a new concept introduced by the fall.

Rather than something entirely new, however, there is something fractal-like in the way this creativity-by-death proceeds from one generation to the next, with the triune God as its source, and it seems appropriate that Christ, having taken our human nature upon Himself, underwent physical death in order to reestablish perfect U***n with our Creator. Our salvation was effected from within the system, not imposed from without, and we escape the system (are saved) only by participating in His death, whereby we are restored as participants in the Divine creativity.

Could it be said, then, that evolution by natural selection entered the world by the fall? I dunno…something to chew on.
Do you mean that bold part literally? If so, where could it fit on timeline? It seems inescapable that more than 99% all of the evolution that has ever happened was before humans began making moral choices.

If you mean it in some abstract way, and not literally, then I guess I just don't get what you might mean. Good to see you here, Colton!
What fits, on the time-line, is the sudden and surprising appearance of rational animals -- a certain population of hominids that suddenly start doing art, and religion, and such things as burying their dead with ochre markers and other tokens. Acting like they mean to live beyond death, or at least to be remembered for a very long while.
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Re: The Problem of Evil and Divine Monergism

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:59 pm

colton wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:13 pm
Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:31 pm
colton wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:12 pm
John-Boy wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Anyway, I still have trouble with how death is part of creation from the creation of the first forms of life and how the whole of life is designed to die, yet, eternal life is a huge part of God's promise. It defies logic. :?
I thought death came as a result of the fall, after creation.
It sounds like Thunk was referring to life in a naturalistic sense (and I see that he clarified while I was typing this), but by correctly reorienting the discussion to a Biblical starting point, you got me to thinking…

Because love and submission are freely and perfectly given, Divine creativity doesn’t require death. The Father freely loves the Son, the Son freely returns this love to the Father from a position of perfect submission, and from that exchange the Holy Spirit proceeds, lovingly submissive to the will of the Father and the Son—the eternal, uncreated dynamism of the Godhead. Naturalistic creativity, in contrast, requires that less fit genes die so fitter genes can rule, and if we take Genesis at face value, death was a new concept introduced by the fall.

Rather than something entirely new, however, there is something fractal-like in the way this creativity-by-death proceeds from one generation to the next, with the triune God as its source, and it seems appropriate that Christ, having taken our human nature upon Himself, underwent physical death in order to reestablish perfect U***n with our Creator. Our salvation was effected from within the system, not imposed from without, and we escape the system (are saved) only by participating in His death, whereby we are restored as participants in the Divine creativity.

Could it be said, then, that evolution by natural selection entered the world by the fall? I dunno…something to chew on.
Do you mean that bold part literally? If so, where could it fit on timeline? It seems inescapable that more than 99% all of the evolution that has ever happened was before humans began making moral choices.

If you mean it in some abstract way, and not literally, then I guess I just don't get what you might mean. Good to see you here, Colton!
I'm not making an assertion, but I meant it literally as something to chew on. My focus, however, is more on looking for traces of God in creation, and less on fitting the Biblical account of creation to science. You're correct that the timeline is the fly in the ointment, since the overwhelming majority of scientists would say that evolution is the process by which the natural world proceeds and was humming along millennia before we arrived.
That fly in the ointment is probably the single most devastating argument against the faith I hold in my heart. My head on the other hand is taking a beating over it. There is zero doubt in my mind that evolution is the method life evolved, including human life. Albeit, I speak of human biology only, not the spiritual component of man.

There are so many good reasons for me to have faith, not the least of which is to allow me to rise above a purely animalistic nature. But we are natural non-the-less too, I will struggle with belief until I can find some sort of Traditional framework to make a reasonable explanation for the above concern. Christians who deny evolution won't help me either, that's just a rejection of natural truths, except perhaps those like wosbald who reject evolution more on the grounds of bad scientific philosophy rather than a denial of the the physical evidence.

I do not personally struggle with the problem of evil in that a good God allows evil to happen. But I do seriously wonder why death was built into creation. Could evolution be the result of the fall? There would have to be some theological solution made for Biblical time or time perspective I suppose. I really am at a loss over this though and it does my faith in sometimes, obviously. Atheism was a much better fit for that issue anyway. It presented other problems for me, but that one got more reasonably solved than anything I heard from the church. I still really ought to speak with Thoth about this. I have a feeling he may have found a solution planted with tradition.
It’s almost believable, but I love it most of the time whether it’s true or not.

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