Clarifying sola Scriptura

For those deep thinkers out there.

Moderator: tuttle

Post Reply
User avatar
tuttle
Theology Room Mod
Theology Room Mod
Posts: 12301
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Post by tuttle » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:06 pm

I feel like I'm spinning plates here. 2 Catholics, 1 Orthodox, and 1 Onyx. All are dealing with infallibility and yet each response I make to 1 or all 3 groups is bound to be removed a bit from context due to 4 perspectives at play. I fear we're all reading the same words but not reading the same thing... :?
Image

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
SlowToke
John Crosby's Friend
John Crosby's Friend
Posts: 8463
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Cloverdale, IN
Contact:

Post by SlowToke » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:05 pm

If the lack of unity in the CPS theology room in any way mirrors the debates when the Bible was first assembled, I think we can all agree that it has to truly be a work of God. :lol:

Obviously, man alone is incapable of coming to a consensus to the degree that we have for so many years.
Wayne Teipen
http://teipenpipes.com
"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions." Proverbs 18:2

"Life is tough, and it's tougher when you're stupid." -- John Wayne

User avatar
jo533281
like R2D2, just not as cool
like R2D2, just not as cool
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:00 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Post by jo533281 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:47 pm

tuttle wrote:
jo533281 wrote:
tuttle wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:Put another way, how do we know that 3 John is Scripture (inspired and inerrant) and the Shepherd of Hermes isn't?

Put another way still, 1 Corintheans wasn't the first letter Paul wrote to the Corintheans. Was his first letter (lost to us) inspired and inerrant? How do you know?
First, I myself, and you, only know what has been passed down to us. I am under no illusion thinking that every Christian was 'bing!' all of a sudden aware of what books were inspired and what books weren't. Admittedly, I need to read some more history, but I think it's fair to say that the 'discovery' of the holy texts was a bit more chaotic than you or I might feel comfortable with.

The Church leaders who desired to see an established canon, themselves had certain criteria they used (such as eyewitness authorship...which would exclude The Shepherd of Hermes). This process (and there was obviously more to it than that) was directed by the Holy Spirit. I think we'd all agree with that. Insofar as the Spirit was involved in the process the Church got it right. The infallible Spirit is able to lead and guide fallible men. How do I know that? The Church told me so and I listen to her as an authority. How do I know she has that authority? For the Bible tells me so. :wink:
Not all used the "criteria" equally. In Antioch they used less than the 27 NT books and in Alexandria they had over 30 including the Shepherd of Hermas. Clearly the criteria was not universal.
Which lends credibility to the Church being infallible in their selection. :no:

This is why we trust in an infallible Spirit leading fallible men.

One thing we should all keep in mind here is that the Church (in whatever tradition) has never really thrown down the 'Here's Exactly What It Is' gauntlet until the 1500's, though the Church throughout the ages has accepted the 27 books of the NT as authoritative.
I think the issue wssnt necessarily what canon do you have (not that it isnt important) but what Faith do you proclaim. You can have a different canon and yet still have the same faith Antioch and Alexandria or even the Hebrews/Revelation between East and West being prime examples. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church has more books in her canon than any Christian group. This is not an issue, at least for the Orthodox.
"This is not facebook, we are not here to boost your self esteem or hang on your every word." -Zed-

"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"

Most Likely to Draw Pirates with a Post

User avatar
DepartedLight
That boy's got a Thorazine deficiency.
Posts: 26322
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Tobacco Fairy HQ, North Carolina

Post by DepartedLight » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:03 pm

FWIW

I understand completely those that hold to Sola Scriptura or (my much preferred phase) Prima Scriptura.

It's simpler, yet deep. It's individualized, just the way the Master touches each of us; yet is also brings community, also the way the Master works.

I may not understand all the nuances or it or completely agree with the various applications of it, but I can respect it.
DL Jake

you win the sneakiness award. » Bloodhound

User avatar
Onyx
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Darth Onyx, Bringer of Unity
Posts: 10808
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Skeptopolis

Post by Onyx » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:49 am

DepartedLight wrote:FWIW

I understand completely those that hold to Sola Scriptura or (my much preferred phase) Prima Scriptura.

It's simpler, yet deep. It's individualized, just the way the Master touches each of us; yet is also brings community, also the way the Master works.

I may not understand all the nuances or it or completely agree with the various applications of it, but I can respect it.
Awesome. And bonus for getting a semicolon into a sentence.
4. No more signatures that quote other CPS members.
-- Thunktank

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18464
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Post by wosbald » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:32 am

+JMJ+
DepartedLight wrote:FWIW

I understand completely those that hold to Sola Scriptura or (my much preferred phase) Prima Scriptura.

It's simpler, yet deep. It's individualized, just the way the Master touches each of us; yet is also brings community, also the way the Master works.

I may not understand all the nuances or it or completely agree with the various applications of it, but I can respect it.
Yeah, the only difference is where one places the infallibility. Placing it in oneself is a natural outgrowth of regeneration as an invisible, ineffable, spiritual event that's discontinuous with everyday life. If you're cool with that, then party on, dude.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
DepartedLight
That boy's got a Thorazine deficiency.
Posts: 26322
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Tobacco Fairy HQ, North Carolina

Post by DepartedLight » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:43 am

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
DepartedLight wrote:FWIW

I understand completely those that hold to Sola Scriptura or (my much preferred phase) Prima Scriptura.

It's simpler, yet deep. It's individualized, just the way the Master touches each of us; yet is also brings community, also the way the Master works.

I may not understand all the nuances or it or completely agree with the various applications of it, but I can respect it.
Yeah, the only difference is where one places the infallibility. Placing it in oneself is a natural outgrowth of regeneration as an invisible, ineffable, spiritual event that's discontinuous with everyday life. If you're cool with that, then party on, dude.
I know lots of folks that hold to the prime authority of Scripture. None of them think they themselves are infallible, at least not where I can tell. They all seem to be trying to walk and live out their faith relying on the words of Scripture to guide, counsel, and comfort them.

I was going to do a follow up to that post so this is a good time I wreckin'.

FWIW

I also understand the Christians that hold to the more ancient tradition that includes Scripture as an integral part of the deposit of faith, inseparable from the whole. For this is how Scripture came to be, and for hundreds of years Christians the world over had no, or minimal access to, Scripture outside the Liturgy.

I think there's room for both.
DL Jake

you win the sneakiness award. » Bloodhound

User avatar
GiantNinja
Dragon Warrior
Dragon Warrior
Posts: 2488
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:00 pm
Location: Behind you. Really.
Contact:

Post by GiantNinja » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:59 am

DepartedLight wrote:
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
DepartedLight wrote:FWIW

I understand completely those that hold to Sola Scriptura or (my much preferred phase) Prima Scriptura.

It's simpler, yet deep. It's individualized, just the way the Master touches each of us; yet is also brings community, also the way the Master works.

I may not understand all the nuances or it or completely agree with the various applications of it, but I can respect it.
Yeah, the only difference is where one places the infallibility. Placing it in oneself is a natural outgrowth of regeneration as an invisible, ineffable, spiritual event that's discontinuous with everyday life. If you're cool with that, then party on, dude.
I know lots of folks that hold to the prime authority of Scripture. None of them think they themselves are infallible, at least not where I can tell. They all seem to be trying to walk and live out their faith relying on the words of Scripture to guide, counsel, and comfort them.
I agree with both of you. I'm unaware of anyone who believes their private interpretation is infallible in THEORY. But, conversing with folks who hold to Sola Scriptura, every time I read 'the Scriptures say X' (unless it's a direct quotation), I want to say 'no, your private, fallible interpretation says X'. In PRACTICE, folks operate as though their interpretations are infallible.
DLJake wrote:I was going to do a follow up to that post so this is a good time I wreckin'.

FWIW

I also understand the Christians that hold to the more ancient tradition that includes Scripture as an integral part of the deposit of faith, inseparable from the whole. For this is how Scripture came to be, and for hundreds of years Christians the world over had no, or minimal access to, Scripture outside the Liturgy.

I think there's room for both.
Of course there is room for both. (And, FWIW, thanks for the follow up, btw.) But the difference is one of worldview. One of primacy. One of authority. IMO, God desires that we be united in this worldview--whichever is his.

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18464
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Post by wosbald » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:00 am

+JMJ+
DepartedLight wrote:
wosbald wrote:
DepartedLight wrote:FWIW

I understand completely those that hold to Sola Scriptura or (my much preferred phase) Prima Scriptura.

It's simpler, yet deep. It's individualized, just the way the Master touches each of us; yet is also brings community, also the way the Master works.

I may not understand all the nuances or it or completely agree with the various applications of it, but I can respect it.
Yeah, the only difference is where one places the infallibility. Placing it in oneself is a natural outgrowth of regeneration as an invisible, ineffable, spiritual event that's discontinuous with everyday life. If you're cool with that, then party on, dude.
I know lots of folks that hold to the prime authority of Scripture. None of them think they themselves are infallible, at least not where I can tell.
If one says "It's not that I can't be wrong about the Canon and the Inspiration of the Bible. It's not like I'm infallible or anything. I'm just most certainly correct", then that's a distinction without a difference.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
tuttle
Theology Room Mod
Theology Room Mod
Posts: 12301
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Post by tuttle » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:45 pm

another article (posted yesterday) that deals with sola scriptura and infalibillity. Extremely related to the debate at hand, thus I break my rule twice:

Who's In Charge Here? The Illusions of Church Infalliblility

(obviously from a protestant perspective... :wink: )
Image

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
tuttle
Theology Room Mod
Theology Room Mod
Posts: 12301
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Post by tuttle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:18 am

I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Image

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
Thoth
Never had a corndog taco shake
Never had a corndog taco shake
Posts: 12119
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Jersey City, World's Greatest City
Contact:

Post by Thoth » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:33 pm

tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
"Go and reconcile with him who has trespassed against you before he comes and apologises to you and steals your crown" - H.H. Pope Cyril VI<br><br>"O Lord I was not aware of the treasure within me that is You" - H.H. Pope Shenouda III

User avatar
tuttle
Theology Room Mod
Theology Room Mod
Posts: 12301
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Post by tuttle » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:52 am

Thoth wrote:
tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
ok...I'm a pushover. here go

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... scriptura/
Image

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
Cleon
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
Posts: 14153
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Indiana - South of 40
Contact:

Post by Cleon » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:04 am

tuttle wrote:
Thoth wrote:
tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
ok...I'm a pushover. here go

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... scriptura/
I predict that points 5 and 6 are going to cause some heart attacks. :lol:
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

User avatar
OldWorldSwine
rootle round the ear 'ole
rootle round the ear 'ole
Posts: 9501
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:00 pm

Post by OldWorldSwine » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:42 am

I love the irony of quoting the Church Fathers to bolster sola scriptura. :lol:
"There's what's right and there's what's right and never the twain shall meet."

User avatar
Thoth
Never had a corndog taco shake
Never had a corndog taco shake
Posts: 12119
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Jersey City, World's Greatest City
Contact:

Post by Thoth » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:50 am

Cleon wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Thoth wrote:
tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
ok...I'm a pushover. here go

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... scriptura/
I predict that points 5 and 6 are going to cause some heart attacks. :lol:
More like a stroke... :P

Yeah that article left me with more questions than answers... (and the link for more quotes of the fathers supporting sola scriptura... pretty sure they weren't arguing sola scriptura since the canon of scripture did not exist during their lifetime)

Rather discuss this over a pint and pipe
"Go and reconcile with him who has trespassed against you before he comes and apologises to you and steals your crown" - H.H. Pope Cyril VI<br><br>"O Lord I was not aware of the treasure within me that is You" - H.H. Pope Shenouda III

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 27569
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Post by coco » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:24 pm

Thoth wrote:
Cleon wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Thoth wrote:
tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
ok...I'm a pushover. here go

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... scriptura/
I predict that points 5 and 6 are going to cause some heart attacks. :lol:
More like a stroke... :P

Yeah that article left me with more questions than answers... (and the link for more quotes of the fathers supporting sola scriptura... pretty sure they weren't arguing sola scriptura since the canon of scripture did not exist during their lifetime)
Doctrines exist long before the first big discussion about them happens. For example, Christians believed in the deity and humanity of Jesus long before any heretic brought such into question. The formal proceedings with respect to the heretic did not create the doctrine, it just stated what the church had long believed with respect to the Bible. It should not surprise us, then, to see the Fathers state that they placed their full reliance on Scripture. After all, they certainly demonstrated that reliance as they wrote.
:wink:
Thoth wrote:Rather discuss this over a pint and pipe
Next time you and your fiance are in Florida, perhaps.
:D
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
jo533281
like R2D2, just not as cool
like R2D2, just not as cool
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:00 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Post by jo533281 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:22 am

coco wrote:
Thoth wrote:
Cleon wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Thoth wrote:
tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
ok...I'm a pushover. here go

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... scriptura/
I predict that points 5 and 6 are going to cause some heart attacks. :lol:
More like a stroke... :P

Yeah that article left me with more questions than answers... (and the link for more quotes of the fathers supporting sola scriptura... pretty sure they weren't arguing sola scriptura since the canon of scripture did not exist during their lifetime)
Doctrines exist long before the first big discussion about them happens. For example, Christians believed in the deity and humanity of Jesus long before any heretic brought such into question. The formal proceedings with respect to the heretic did not create the doctrine, it just stated what the church had long believed with respect to the Bible. It should not surprise us, then, to see the Fathers state that they placed their full reliance on Scripture. After all, they certainly demonstrated that reliance as they wrote.
:wink:
Thoth wrote:Rather discuss this over a pint and pipe
Next time you and your fiance are in Florida, perhaps.
:D
They demonstrated sola scriptura when they wrote? Have you ever read St. Basil's "On the Holy Spirit" for example? He specifically uses Holy Tradition to defend the Holy Spirit's Godhood. And St. Vincent of Lerins demonstrated it by applying the (now-called) Vicentian Canon? Methinks you need to reread them without your sola scriptura glasses on. Modern Orthodox theologians use the Scriptures as much as the Fathers did, and they don't hold to that particular Reformation doctrine anymore than the Fathers did.

EDIT: Their references to the Fathers are taken out of context. How about they cut and paste more than two lines from a Church Father so that we can see the sum total of what they wrote. I can quote snippets from the Bible that prove Unitarianism is true... provided I ignore the rest of the context and content of the Bible.

Interesting article though. Nothing new from my perspective but informative none-the-less.
"This is not facebook, we are not here to boost your self esteem or hang on your every word." -Zed-

"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"

Most Likely to Draw Pirates with a Post

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 27569
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Post by coco » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:49 am

jo533281 wrote:
coco wrote:
Thoth wrote:
Cleon wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Thoth wrote:
tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
ok...I'm a pushover. here go

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... scriptura/
I predict that points 5 and 6 are going to cause some heart attacks. :lol:
More like a stroke... :P

Yeah that article left me with more questions than answers... (and the link for more quotes of the fathers supporting sola scriptura... pretty sure they weren't arguing sola scriptura since the canon of scripture did not exist during their lifetime)
Doctrines exist long before the first big discussion about them happens. For example, Christians believed in the deity and humanity of Jesus long before any heretic brought such into question. The formal proceedings with respect to the heretic did not create the doctrine, it just stated what the church had long believed with respect to the Bible. It should not surprise us, then, to see the Fathers state that they placed their full reliance on Scripture. After all, they certainly demonstrated that reliance as they wrote.
:wink:
Thoth wrote:Rather discuss this over a pint and pipe
Next time you and your fiance are in Florida, perhaps.
:D
They demonstrated sola scriptura when they wrote? Have you ever read St. Basil's "On the Holy Spirit" for example? He specifically uses Holy Tradition to defend the Holy Spirit's Godhood. And St. Vincent of Lerins demonstrated it by applying the (now-called) Vicentian Canon? Methinks you need to reread them without your sola scriptura glasses on. Modern Orthodox theologians use the Scriptures as much as the Fathers did, and they don't hold to that particular Reformation doctrine anymore than the Fathers did.

EDIT: Their references to the Fathers are taken out of context. How about they cut and paste more than two lines from a Church Father so that we can see the sum total of what they wrote. I can quote snippets from the Bible that prove Unitarianism is true... provided I ignore the rest of the context and content of the Bible.

Interesting article though. Nothing new from my perspective but informative none-the-less.
Perhaps you should re-read Basil without Holy Tradition glasses on. But that is rather difficult, isn't it? We all have worldviews, given to us by our communities. Without them, we could see nothing. But even with them, we do not see perfectly.

At times, the Fathers took a position that would later be called sola scriptura. At times, they simply did not. One of the difficulties with a Holy Tradition position is figuring out which of the existing positions within the Holy Tradition is the "correct" one.

Oh, and the author of the article provides a link to fuller quotations.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
jo533281
like R2D2, just not as cool
like R2D2, just not as cool
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:00 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Post by jo533281 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:57 am

coco wrote:
jo533281 wrote:
coco wrote:
Thoth wrote:
Cleon wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Thoth wrote:
tuttle wrote:I found a great article talking about the myths surrounding sola scriptura and thought, hey that would be a great contribution to the "Clarifying Sola Scritpura" thread!

and then I re-skimmed this whole dang thing :?

I think there are some great meaty chunks of discussion throughout, but it's a bit spoiled by the dead flys in the soup...

So yeah, I'm not posting the article here :lol:
Are you going to post it anywhere?
ok...I'm a pushover. here go

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... scriptura/
I predict that points 5 and 6 are going to cause some heart attacks. :lol:
More like a stroke... :P

Yeah that article left me with more questions than answers... (and the link for more quotes of the fathers supporting sola scriptura... pretty sure they weren't arguing sola scriptura since the canon of scripture did not exist during their lifetime)
Doctrines exist long before the first big discussion about them happens. For example, Christians believed in the deity and humanity of Jesus long before any heretic brought such into question. The formal proceedings with respect to the heretic did not create the doctrine, it just stated what the church had long believed with respect to the Bible. It should not surprise us, then, to see the Fathers state that they placed their full reliance on Scripture. After all, they certainly demonstrated that reliance as they wrote.
:wink:
Thoth wrote:Rather discuss this over a pint and pipe
Next time you and your fiance are in Florida, perhaps.
:D
They demonstrated sola scriptura when they wrote? Have you ever read St. Basil's "On the Holy Spirit" for example? He specifically uses Holy Tradition to defend the Holy Spirit's Godhood. And St. Vincent of Lerins demonstrated it by applying the (now-called) Vicentian Canon? Methinks you need to reread them without your sola scriptura glasses on. Modern Orthodox theologians use the Scriptures as much as the Fathers did, and they don't hold to that particular Reformation doctrine anymore than the Fathers did.

EDIT: Their references to the Fathers are taken out of context. How about they cut and paste more than two lines from a Church Father so that we can see the sum total of what they wrote. I can quote snippets from the Bible that prove Unitarianism is true... provided I ignore the rest of the context and content of the Bible.

Interesting article though. Nothing new from my perspective but informative none-the-less.
Perhaps you should re-read Basil without Holy Tradition glasses on. But that is rather difficult, isn't it? We all have worldviews, given to us by our communities. Without them, we could see nothing. But even with them, we do not see perfectly.

At times, the Fathers took a position that would later be called sola scriptura. At times, they simply did not. One of the difficulties with a Holy Tradition position is figuring out which of the existing positions within the Holy Tradition is the "correct" one.

Oh, and the author of the article provides a link to fuller quotations.
I have read those quotes. They were less than convincing. If they really believed in Sola Scriptura, why would they retain the liturgy, the veneration of the saints/Theotokos, etc?

By the logic of your second to last paragraph, then coco, I could easily say that the Bible, at times, teaches universalism, or what would later be called as such and, at times, it does not.

The Fathers and the Orthodox both believe in the primacy of Scripture. I affirm every quote they say about the Divine Scriptures... and I don't hold to sola scriptura. The problem here, I think, is that any affirmation of the Scriptures as primary is seen as sola for you guys, rather than getting a fuller context by reading a majority of what any particular Father wrote.
"This is not facebook, we are not here to boost your self esteem or hang on your every word." -Zed-

"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"

Most Likely to Draw Pirates with a Post

Post Reply