The Rapture

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Post by DepartedLight » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:13 pm

For you math guys out there; we need a Mary Rapture coefficient equation or something.
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Post by gaining_age » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:15 pm

DepartedLight wrote:For you math guys out there; we need a Mary Rapture coefficient equation or something.
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Post by UncleBob » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:29 pm

RAPTURE PRACTICE!!!

:nic: :nic: :nic:
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Post by Roadmaster » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:56 pm

FredS wrote:
Jocose wrote:Whether it be today, tomorrow or another day..

It's funny to me that no one knows the day or hour, not even Jesus. Only the Father knows.

How can this be?
The reasoning here is obvious. It's like that algebra teacher you had in school who threw a pop quiz out there every once in a while. If you don't know when it's coming then (if yer smart) you do your studies every day so yer always prepared.
gaining_age wrote:
DepartedLight wrote:For you math guys out there; we need a Mary Rapture coefficient equation or something.
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Post by DepartedLight » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:14 am

gaining_age wrote:
DepartedLight wrote:For you math guys out there; we need a Mary Rapture coefficient equation or something.
Image
I don't get it. Where's the Mary part?
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Post by UncleBob » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:42 am

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 21 January 2014: 34%

That is all.
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Post by Jocose » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:26 am

This was a serious question, before it went all CPS.

Anyway, nevermind, nothing to see here, move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for, etc etc
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Post by coco » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:22 am

Jocose wrote:This was a serious question, before it went all CPS.

Anyway, nevermind, nothing to see here, move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for, etc etc
You got a serious answer from Del and I before everyone started goofing off. All work and no play makes Jo a dull boy.
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Post by coco » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:32 am

UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:What is your working definition of "Rapture?"
You realize that this kind of conduct will get you nominated for 2014 CPS Awards...
In my time as a pastor I've come to realize that different people have different ideas of what "rapture" means. This is not a strategic GiNi maneuver..... promise.
Rapture = "The great snatching", like when a chicken snatches up a june bug.

There. Discuss.
The word "rapture" is derived from the following verse:
1 Thess 4:17 wrote:Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
However, it is defined in different ways, three of which I think are worth mentioning here:

1. Christ will make a sudden personal, visible, and bodily return, in the same manner in which he ascended into heaven (Acts 1:11), and at that time he will raise and glorify the bodies of the dead in Christ, reunite these bodies with their souls, and take them, as completely saved human beings, up to be with him forever. (Note that this position is little more than a restatement of the concepts found in Acts 1:11, 1 Thess 4:17, and other such verses. It isn't exactly going way out on a limb.)

2. The Premillennial Dispensationalists, via a patchwork of prooftexts, make some distinctions with regard to position one. They believe that Christ's second coming is divided into two parts, which I will call his first second coming and his second second coming.

a. The first second coming: This will be a "secret" coming, in which the dead in Christ will be raised and taken up, but everyone else will be unable to see any of it, and so they will just wonder what happened. After this secret rapture, there will be seven years of tribulation in which many signs will be literally fulfilled (Dispensationalists are not keen on symbolism).

b. The second second coming: This will occur after the seven years of tribulation, and will be a "public" coming with Christ and all his saints. Everyone will see it and know that Jesus is truly Lord of all.

3. "Jesus is coming back for us": This is the most common position. Most people don't understand the distinctions made in position two, they just know Jesus is coming back. Their belief is probably compatible with position one, but may not be compatible with position two.

As with so many theologically loaded words, it pays to explain yourself so that your hearers understand what you are saying.
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Post by FredS » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:15 am

Now we're getting somewhere. I've never given the rapture much thought because, well, exactly when and how it happens doesn't matter to me. But now that we're discussing it, I have a few questions about Premillennial Dispensationalists:

1. Even though the first second coming will be in secret, it seems that it will become apparent after a half dozen or so of the signs are fulfilled. That will give those who are still awake some warning to get right. As more signs are fulfilled, won't it become increasingly obvious to everyone what is about to happen?

2. I wonder what they say will happen to those who die after the first second coming (when the dead are raised) and the second second coming. Will Christ make a clean-up pass through the cemetery to pick up those in-betweeners?
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Post by coco » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:40 am

FredS wrote:Now we're getting somewhere. I've never given the rapture much thought because, well, exactly when and how it happens doesn't matter to me. But now that we're discussing it, I have a few questions about Premillennial Dispensationalists:

1. Even though the first second coming will be in secret, it seems that it will become apparent after a half dozen or so of the signs are fulfilled. That will give those who are still awake some warning to get right. As more signs are fulfilled, won't it become increasingly obvious to everyone what is about to happen?
I am not a Dispensationalist, but I will try to do my best:

The answer, I believe is "yes" for most Dispensationalists. Indeed, the rapture itself is the first big clue. After that we can expect some Gentiles to start reading their Gideon Bibles in their hotel rooms, listening to John Hagee's stuff on youtube, etc. They will be saved and those that live through the 7 years will serve God during Jesus' literal, earthly millennial reign. See Rev 7:9-14.

Other Dispensationalists believe that no one will be saved during the Tribulation. See Rev 9:20; 16:9, 20

Now, the Jews are a different story. They, according to Dispensationalists have a different plan than the Church (read: "Gentile believers"). Some believe all Jew will be saved during the Tribulation, others believe that only 144,000 will be saved.
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Post by coco » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:52 am

FredS wrote:2. I wonder what they say will happen to those who die after the first second coming (when the dead are raised) and the second second coming. Will Christ make a clean-up pass through the cemetery to pick up those in-betweeners?
I haven't heard that one discussed before, so I will have to pass that question off to someone who knows more.
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Post by JudgeRusty » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:52 am

coco wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:What is your working definition of "Rapture?"
You realize that this kind of conduct will get you nominated for 2014 CPS Awards...
In my time as a pastor I've come to realize that different people have different ideas of what "rapture" means. This is not a strategic GiNi maneuver..... promise.
Rapture = "The great snatching", like when a chicken snatches up a june bug.

There. Discuss.
The word "rapture" is derived from the following verse:
1 Thess 4:17 wrote:Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
However, it is defined in different ways, three of which I think are worth mentioning here:

1. Christ will make a sudden personal, visible, and bodily return, in the same manner in which he ascended into heaven (Acts 1:11), and at that time he will raise and glorify the bodies of the dead in Christ, reunite these bodies with their souls, and take them, as completely saved human beings, up to be with him forever. (Note that this position is little more than a restatement of the concepts found in Acts 1:11, 1 Thess 4:17, and other such verses. It isn't exactly going way out on a limb.)

2. The Premillennial Dispensationalists, via a patchwork of prooftexts, make some distinctions with regard to position one. They believe that Christ's second coming is divided into two parts, which I will call his first second coming and his second second coming.

a. The first second coming: This will be a "secret" coming, in which the dead in Christ will be raised and taken up, but everyone else will be unable to see any of it, and so they will just wonder what happened. After this secret rapture, there will be seven years of tribulation in which many signs will be literally fulfilled (Dispensationalists are not keen on symbolism).

b. The second second coming: This will occur after the seven years of tribulation, and will be a "public" coming with Christ and all his saints. Everyone will see it and know that Jesus is truly Lord of all.

3. "Jesus is coming back for us": This is the most common position. Most people don't understand the distinctions made in position two, they just know Jesus is coming back. Their belief is probably compatible with position one, but may not be compatible with position two.

As with so many theologically loaded words, it pays to explain yourself so that your hearers understand what you are saying.
Coco,
Your explanation indicates that the dead in Christ would be raised at the Rapture but makes no mention of the living "saved" Christians. Was this an oversight, or intentional?
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Post by coco » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:53 am

JudgeRusty wrote:
coco wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:What is your working definition of "Rapture?"
You realize that this kind of conduct will get you nominated for 2014 CPS Awards...
In my time as a pastor I've come to realize that different people have different ideas of what "rapture" means. This is not a strategic GiNi maneuver..... promise.
Rapture = "The great snatching", like when a chicken snatches up a june bug.

There. Discuss.
The word "rapture" is derived from the following verse:
1 Thess 4:17 wrote:Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
However, it is defined in different ways, three of which I think are worth mentioning here:

1. Christ will make a sudden personal, visible, and bodily return, in the same manner in which he ascended into heaven (Acts 1:11), and at that time he will raise and glorify the bodies of the dead in Christ, reunite these bodies with their souls, and take them, as completely saved human beings, up to be with him forever. [EDIT: Likewise, living believers will also be taken up with Christ at this time.](Note that this position is little more than a restatement of the concepts found in Acts 1:11, 1 Thess 4:17, and other such verses. It isn't exactly going way out on a limb.)

2. The Premillennial Dispensationalists, via a patchwork of prooftexts, make some distinctions with regard to position one. They believe that Christ's second coming is divided into two parts, which I will call his first second coming and his second second coming.

a. The first second coming: This will be a "secret" coming, in which the dead in Christ will be raised and taken up, but everyone else will be unable to see any of it, and so they will just wonder what happened. After this secret rapture, there will be seven years of tribulation in which many signs will be literally fulfilled (Dispensationalists are not keen on symbolism).

b. The second second coming: This will occur after the seven years of tribulation, and will be a "public" coming with Christ and all his saints. Everyone will see it and know that Jesus is truly Lord of all.

3. "Jesus is coming back for us": This is the most common position. Most people don't understand the distinctions made in position two, they just know Jesus is coming back. Their belief is probably compatible with position one, but may not be compatible with position two.

As with so many theologically loaded words, it pays to explain yourself so that your hearers understand what you are saying.
Coco,
Your explanation indicates that the dead in Christ would be raised at the Rapture but makes no mention of the living "saved" Christians. Was this an oversight, or intentional?
Oversight.
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Post by UncleBob » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:06 pm

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 22 January 2014: 61%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS

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Post by coco » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:35 pm

UncleBob wrote:*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 22 January 2014: 61%

That is all.
Has this thread caused that percentile to go up or down from where it would have been otherwise?
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Post by FredS » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:52 pm

coco wrote:I will have to pass that question off to someone who knows more.
As if there were someone like that here.
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Post by coco » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:40 pm

FredS wrote:
coco wrote:I will have to pass that question off to someone who knows more.
As if there were someone like that here.
When I have difficult theological questions, I just ask Sockpuppeh.
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Post by UncleBob » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:50 pm

coco wrote:
FredS wrote:2. I wonder what they say will happen to those who die after the first second coming (when the dead are raised) and the second second coming. Will Christ make a clean-up pass through the cemetery to pick up those in-betweeners?
I haven't heard that one discussed before, so I will have to pass that question off to someone who knows more.
The question presupposes a pre-tribulation position. Also, the answer depends on a dispensationalist point of view. Essentially, only martyrs and practicing Jews will be saved during the Great Tribulation (from this perspective); the martyrs will be raised at the GTW and the practicing Jews will welcome Christ when He lands at Mt. Olives.

When I was a premillennialist, I always believed in the classical premillennialist position that argues for one rapture event at the end of the Great Tribulation so this question would be moot. However, I no longer hold to that teaching.
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Post by UncleBob » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:59 pm

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 23 January 2014: 28%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS

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