The Rapture

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Post by Rusty » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:14 pm

FredS wrote:Now we're getting somewhere. I've never given the rapture much thought because, well, exactly when and how it happens doesn't matter to me. But now that we're discussing it, I have a few questions about Premillennial Dispensationalists:

1. Even though the first second coming will be in secret, it seems that it will become apparent after a half dozen or so of the signs are fulfilled. That will give those who are still awake some warning to get right. As more signs are fulfilled, won't it become increasingly obvious to everyone what is about to happen?

2. I wonder what they say will happen to those who die after the first second coming (when the dead are raised) and the second second coming. Will Christ make a clean-up pass through the cemetery to pick up those in-betweeners?
He shouldn't bother with the under-duress procrastinating crowd. If they didn't initiate it on their own without all the warning signs then to hell with them. The dedicated only.

Why visit cemeteries again? Don't you folks think the virtuous believers are in heaven already? What's the transfer latency for souls? And likewise the denying sinners aren't there either. So who is stuck in the ground with their decaying remains? Also it's questionable what he expects to rapturize. It can only be the remains of the recently dead and for what purpose? They can't be there either. The rest aren't pretty. Most are actually gone. If the ground is acidic even the bones are gone after a shorter period too. Plus in many places in the world they turn over the plots after some period of time. Then there is the cremated and those bulky jars. They've been rapturized. Those buried at sea. Boy is Osama going to be shocked. His remains are probably gone already. What exactly is he searching for? It seems like biz as usual should prevail. If you're alive and worthy then he has you and if you're dead the usual thing happens.

If it's a question of finding a body I'm sure that he can construct another one. That prospect ought to please the Christian LGBT crowd.
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Post by UncleBob » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:15 pm

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 24 January 2014: 3%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Post by UncleBob » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:54 am

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 25 January 2014: 41%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Post by coco » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:56 am

UncleBob wrote:*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 25 January 2014: 41%

That is all.
What?! Yesterday it was only 3%!! This has something to do with Bieber's arrest, right?
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Post by Irish-Dane » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:07 am

Do I need to click on this link to know what the heck is going on?

I refuse.
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Post by Irish-Dane » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:15 am

And for what it's worth Jo, coco, Judge, FredS... I have enjoyed reading your thoughts and pondering on this thread this morning.
It's not available because if you try it you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body. --Colton

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Post by Del » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:54 am

UncleBob wrote:
coco wrote:
FredS wrote:2. I wonder what they say will happen to those who die after the first second coming (when the dead are raised) and the second second coming. Will Christ make a clean-up pass through the cemetery to pick up those in-betweeners?
I haven't heard that one discussed before, so I will have to pass that question off to someone who knows more.
The question presupposes a pre-tribulation position. Also, the answer depends on a dispensationalist point of view. Essentially, only martyrs and practicing Jews will be saved during the Great Tribulation (from this perspective); the martyrs will be raised at the GTW and the practicing Jews will welcome Christ when He lands at Mt. Olives.

When I was a premillennialist, I always believed in the classical premillennialist position that argues for one rapture event at the end of the Great Tribulation so this question would be moot. However, I no longer hold to that teaching.
Help me out: We don't have any vocabulary for the "millennialist" theories. Where do I fall on the grid?

I believe that we are in the "end times." We have been, ever since St. Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.

I believe there have been several antichrists, great apostasies, and times of tribulation. There will be more.

Eventually, at some time that is still impossible to predict, Christ will come again in glory. The dead will rise, we will all be taken up, and earth and heaven will pass away.

At that time, there will be a general judgment of every person currently in heaven and on earth and in hell. (Morley's long-awaited reckoning!)

Then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth (which might well be the same place), where Christ will reign eternally. Our bodies will be immortal, but that is all I know about the physics of the new reality.

What does that make me, millenialistically?
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Post by UncleBob » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:20 am

Most dispensational protestant eschatology is articulated in relation to the millennium described in Revelation. So a pre-millennialist believes that Jesus will return and then usher in the millennium where that lamb lays down with the lion and so on. So they believe that there will be The Great Tribulation, then the return of Christ, then the millennium, then Satan is loosed, then Gog and Magog (Armageddon) and then the Great White Throne judgement. Incidentally, postmillennialists believe that we may already be in the millennium and Jesus returns after that. I don't know anyone on CPS that has advocated that position.

Most dispensationalists are pre-millennial but differentiate between when the rapture will happen in relation to the Great Tribulation. So they may be "pre-trib", "mid-trib" or "post-trib". Post-tribulation is the classical pre-mil position. So in the pre-trib position, Jesus raptures the faithful before the tribulation and then returns after the tribulation to bind Satan for 1000 years (the millennium) and so on. For mid-tribbers, everyone goes through half (3.5 years) of the tribulation and then the faithful are raptured to miss the worse part of the tribulation and so on. The post-trib believe that everyone, faithful and unfaithful alike, endure the tribulation until Jesus raptures the faithful when he returns.
Del wrote: Help me out: We don't have any vocabulary for the "millennialist" theories. Where do I fall on the grid?
Usually, Catholics are amillennialists in that they don't believe in a literal thousand years. Generally, they believe that the millennium is spiritual in nature and that Jesus will return at the end of "the Church age" and establish an earthly rule and the Great White Throne Judgement may, or may not be literal. Of course, you best know your own eschatology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism

Del wrote: I believe that we are in the "end times." We have been, ever since St. Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.

I believe there have been several antichrists, great apostasies, and times of tribulation. There will be more.

Eventually, at some time that is still impossible to predict, Christ will come again in glory. The dead will rise, we will all be taken up, and earth and heaven will pass away.

At that time, there will be a general judgment of every person currently in heaven and on earth and in hell. (Morley's long-awaited reckoning!)

Then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth (which might well be the same place), where Christ will reign eternally. Our bodies will be immortal, but that is all I know about the physics of the new reality.

What does that make me, millenialistically?
This sounds like amillennialism to me which is the classic Catholic eschatological position.

If you are bored, here is a primer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology
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Post by coco » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:35 am

[EDIT: UB beat me to the punch]
UncleBob wrote:
coco wrote:
FredS wrote:2. I wonder what they say will happen to those who die after the first second coming (when the dead are raised) and the second second coming. Will Christ make a clean-up pass through the cemetery to pick up those in-betweeners?
I haven't heard that one discussed before, so I will have to pass that question off to someone who knows more.
The question presupposes a pre-tribulation position. Also, the answer depends on a dispensationalist point of view. Essentially, only martyrs and practicing Jews will be saved during the Great Tribulation (from this perspective); the martyrs will be raised at the GTW and the practicing Jews will welcome Christ when He lands at Mt. Olives.

When I was a premillennialist, I always believed in the classical premillennialist position that argues for one rapture event at the end of the Great Tribulation so this question would be moot. However, I no longer hold to that teaching.
Del wrote:Help me out: We don't have any vocabulary for the "millennialist" theories. Where do I fall on the grid?

I believe that we are in the "end times." We have been, ever since St. Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.
This would probably rule out Classical Dispensationalism, which looks at the events in the Book of Revelation as being entirely future. It would fit especially well with Amillennialism.
Del wrote:I believe there have been several antichrists, great apostasies, and times of tribulation. There will be more.
This would fit well with Amillennialism or Historic Premillennialism (not to be confused with Dispensational Premillennealism!).
Del wrote:Eventually, at some time that is still impossible to predict, Christ will come again in glory. The dead will rise, we will all be taken up, and earth and heaven will pass away.

At that time, there will be a general judgment of every person currently in heaven and on earth and in hell. (Morley's long-awaited reckoning!)

Then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth (which might well be the same place), where Christ will reign eternally. Our bodies will be immortal, but that is all I know about the physics of the new reality.
Pretty much all Christians, with the exception of the rather Liberal ones, would go with what you have here.
Del wrote:What does that make me, millenialistically?
Oddly enough, the question of the millennium is partly separate from, but nonetheless related to, bigger views on eschatology. Do you expect the Millennial reign of Christ to be a literal 1000 years, or is the language in chapter 20 being used figuratively to denote the entire church age?

If you answer figuratively, then you are most likely Amillinneal, as was Augustine (most of the time).
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Post by StatHaldol » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:56 am

Irish-Dane wrote:And for what it's worth Jo, coco, Judge, FredS... I have enjoyed reading your thoughts and pondering on this thread this morning.
Same here...
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Post by FredS » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:29 pm

StatHaldol wrote:
Irish-Dane wrote:And for what it's worth Jo, coco, Judge, FredS... I have enjoyed reading your thoughts and pondering on this thread this morning.
Same here...
+me

Nowhere in my past (as an Episcopalian/Anglican and now Presbyterian) have I/we delved in to this subject. I suppose most of us figure He will come again after we're dead, so the particulars don't bear much on our actions, behaviors, or beliefs. Even if I knew He was coming tonight, I'm not sure I would adjust myself in any way. Whether it's true or not, most of us would like to believe we're ready.
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Post by Del » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:52 pm

coco wrote:
Del wrote:What does that make me, millenialistically?
Oddly enough, the question of the millennium is partly separate from, but nonetheless related to, bigger views on eschatology. Do you expect the Millennial reign of Christ to be a literal 1000 years, or is the language in chapter 20 being used figuratively to denote the entire church age?

If you answer figuratively, then you are most likely Amillennial, as was Augustine (most of the time).
Thanks to coco and to UB.

No, it never occurred to me that Christ intends to hang around again in this reality and physically reign for a literal 1000 years.

I have always thought that we are already in the midst of a 'millennium' (symbolic language for 'a very long time'), in which Christ is reigning over His Church from his throne in heaven. But I never thought about it deeply much.
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Post by Gabriel » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:48 pm

One of the Elders at our church likes to say he's a "panmillenialist." He believes God has a plan and it will all pan out in the end. ;)
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Post by UncleBob » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:11 pm

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 26 January 2014: 31%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Post by Del » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:29 pm

UncleBob wrote:*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 26 January 2014: 31%

That is all.
So, just 31%? That's not too bad.... Hey?!!? Whu...
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Post by UncleBob » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:21 pm

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 30 January 2014: 11%

Chance that TNLP is a Belieber: 99.44%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS

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Post by Irish-Dane » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:42 pm

UncleBob wrote:*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 30 January 2014: 11%

Chance that TNLP is a Belieber: 99.44%

That is all.
:joy:
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Post by UncleBob » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:35 am

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 31 January 2014: 58%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS

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Post by Roadmaster » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:50 pm

Gabriel wrote:One of the Elders at our church likes to say he's a "panmillenialist." He believes God has a plan and it will all pan out in the end. ;)
I like the way he thinks.
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Post by UncleBob » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:24 am

*DAILY POST*

Chance of Rapture for 1 February 2014: 49%

That is all.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS

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