Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by wosbald » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 am

+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
So a conscious sleep or complete destruction without any form of existing?
A "conscious sleep"???

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Jester » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
So a conscious sleep or complete destruction without any form of existing?
A "conscious sleep"???

Was ist das? Del's normal mode of posting?
con·scious.
.

[ˈkän(t)SHəs]

ADJECTIVE

aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.

synonyms: aware · awake · alert · responsive · sentient · compos mentis

having knowledge of something; aware:

"we are conscious of the extent of the problem"

synonyms: aware · mindful · sensible · cognizant · regardful

(conscious of)

painfully aware of; sensitive to:

"he was very conscious of his appearance"

•concerned with or worried about a particular matter:

"they were growing increasingly security-conscious"

•(of an action or feeling) deliberate and intentional:

"a conscious effort to walk properly"
Yes, conscious as in actually in some state of being as opposed to his other opinion of complete destruction. So this would beg the question does our souls sleep have immortality or does it meet a certain end. If we sleep continually in some form of consciousness then we would be separated from Christ therefore in eternal agony. If we go to final destruction then where was Lazarus?
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Del » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:53 am

Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
So a conscious sleep or complete destruction without any form of existing?
A "conscious sleep"???

Was ist das? Del's normal mode of posting?
con·scious.
.

[ˈkän(t)SHəs]

ADJECTIVE

aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.

synonyms: aware · awake · alert · responsive · sentient · compos mentis

having knowledge of something; aware:

"we are conscious of the extent of the problem"

synonyms: aware · mindful · sensible · cognizant · regardful

(conscious of)

painfully aware of; sensitive to:

"he was very conscious of his appearance"

•concerned with or worried about a particular matter:

"they were growing increasingly security-conscious"

•(of an action or feeling) deliberate and intentional:

"a conscious effort to walk properly"
Yes, conscious as in actually in some state of being as opposed to his other opinion of complete destruction. So this would beg the question does our souls sleep have immortality or does it meet a certain end. If we sleep continually in some form of consciousness then we would be separated from Christ therefore in eternal agony. If we go to final destruction then where was Lazarus?
Jesus gave us a good model in His parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The spirit of Lazarus rested in the bosom of Abraham, while the Rich Man writhed in a torment of fire. This satisfies God's desire of justice for us.

Ancient Christian wisdom holds that the righteous dead waited with hopeful longing for the coming of Christ.

We do not claim to know how time flows for human souls in the eternal realm. We do not know whether it was the same for the pre-Christian saints as it is now for the Christian souls undergoing purification. We do not know if the the process passes quickly, or if it is eternally slow. We do not know if it is the same for each soul.

We do believe that the righteous dead are aware of us, and they can pray for us. We have miracles aplenty to evidence our faith.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:25 am

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
No, it does say Hades in the Greek and "ad inferos"( "to those beneath") in Latin. In my mind, that indicates the souls were in Hades, "beneath", and not slumbering.

I understand you believe what you believe. Logically, I just don't understand how you get there. That's what I'm curious about. It looks an awful lot like making God in our own desired image from over here and that's why I'm asking for the logic behind your conclusions.

Does the Evangelical Presbyterian Church know it has a 7th Day Adventist in it's mix? :D
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by gaining_age » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:08 pm

Abraham's bosom.... (speaking of terms for the pre resurrection place of death for the righteous vs. suffering souls)
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by FredS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:09 pm

If you routinely recite the Apostles Creed, you ought to believe it. You should take the time to consider it and understand what it means. It say's clearly that Jesus was killed. Dead. As a doornail. It also says that - while his body was buried - He went somewhere else. Whether He was in hell, a lake of fire, or playing rummy in the devils parlor doesn't really matter for the original topic of this thread. He - (His soul) - was clearly in a different place than His body for a few days.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Jester » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by FredS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 pm

Yes, the Council of Nicea very deliberately deleted the line about Jesus descending to hell.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Jester » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:43 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 pm
Yes, the Council of Nicea very deliberately deleted the line about Jesus descending to hell.
Not sure how deliberate it was. I believe that the Nicene Creed came before the Apostles Creed.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by FredS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:48 pm

Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:43 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 pm
Yes, the Council of Nicea very deliberately deleted the line about Jesus descending to hell.
Not sure how deliberate it was. I believe that the Nicene Creed came before the Apostles Creed.
I see. Another view is that the line about Jesus descending to some other place was added to the Apostles creed after Nicea.

Here's a link to a blog post by my pastor that discusses the topic.

The creeds are different. Not by misquote, mistake, or language creep, but for specific reasons.

My whole point in bringing up the Apostles Creed is that Goose said he proclaims it. And I say he shouldn't proclaim it if he doesn't agree with it or fully understand it. It speaks of Christ's body being buried while His soul was in hell. I understand also that Gooses original question is about human souls, not Gods soul, but Jesus was fully human, for the same creed says He was 'born of the virgin Mary'. So there is a soul than can be apart from the body. For three days or three kabillion days it doesn't say.
Last edited by FredS on Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 pm

Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
So a conscious sleep or complete destruction without any form of existing?
A "conscious sleep"???

Was ist das? Del's normal mode of posting?
con·scious.
.

[ˈkän(t)SHəs]

ADJECTIVE

aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.

synonyms: aware · awake · alert · responsive · sentient · compos mentis

having knowledge of something; aware:

"we are conscious of the extent of the problem"

synonyms: aware · mindful · sensible · cognizant · regardful

(conscious of)

painfully aware of; sensitive to:

"he was very conscious of his appearance"

•concerned with or worried about a particular matter:

"they were growing increasingly security-conscious"

•(of an action or feeling) deliberate and intentional:

"a conscious effort to walk properly"
Yes, conscious as in actually in some state of being as opposed to his other opinion of complete destruction. So this would beg the question does our souls sleep have immortality or does it meet a certain end. If we sleep continually in some form of consciousness then we would be separated from Christ therefore in eternal agony. If we go to final destruction then where was Lazarus?
I think we only must have this question about where Lazarus was, when we hold to the idea that his spirit or soul went somewhere. If we can just accept the words of Jesus, plainly, we may hold that idea more loosely. I see in the New Testament, a great many references to resurrection. Jesus resurrected a number of people, including Lazarus. But we see two different resurrections.....

John 5: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:32 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
So a conscious sleep or complete destruction without any form of existing?
A "conscious sleep"???

Was ist das? Del's normal mode of posting?
con·scious.
.

[ˈkän(t)SHəs]

ADJECTIVE

aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.

synonyms: aware · awake · alert · responsive · sentient · compos mentis

having knowledge of something; aware:

"we are conscious of the extent of the problem"

synonyms: aware · mindful · sensible · cognizant · regardful

(conscious of)

painfully aware of; sensitive to:

"he was very conscious of his appearance"

•concerned with or worried about a particular matter:

"they were growing increasingly security-conscious"

•(of an action or feeling) deliberate and intentional:

"a conscious effort to walk properly"
Yes, conscious as in actually in some state of being as opposed to his other opinion of complete destruction. So this would beg the question does our souls sleep have immortality or does it meet a certain end. If we sleep continually in some form of consciousness then we would be separated from Christ therefore in eternal agony. If we go to final destruction then where was Lazarus?
I think we only must have this question about where Lazarus was, when we hold to the idea that his spirit or soul went somewhere. If we can just accept the words of Jesus, plainly, we may hold that idea more loosely. I see in the New Testament, a great many references to resurrection. Jesus resurrected a number of people, including Lazarus. But we see two different resurrections.....

John 5: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
So all we must do is ignore everything Jesus said about hell, then read something else as if it doesn't have a plain meaning?

Goose, you can argue better than this. Arguments must progress logically, with some sort of premises supporting the conclusion. I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong. We believe differently. But give me something to understand where you're coming from.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Jester » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:41 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:48 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:43 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 pm
Yes, the Council of Nicea very deliberately deleted the line about Jesus descending to hell.
Not sure how deliberate it was. I believe that the Nicene Creed came before the Apostles Creed.
I see. Another view is that the line about Jesus descending to some other place was added to the Apostles creed after Nicea.

Here's a link to a blog post by my pastor that discusses the topic.

The creeds are different. Not by misquote, mistake, or language creep, but for specific reasons.

My whole point in bringing up the Apostles Creed is that Goose said he proclaims it. And I say he shouldn't proclaim it if he doesn't agree with it or fully understand it. It speaks of Christ's body being buried while His soul was in hell. I understand also that Gooses original question is about human souls, not Gods soul, but Jesus was fully human, for the same creed says He was 'born of the virgin Mary'. So there is a soul than can be apart from the body. For three days or three kabillion days it doesn't say.
Thank you for sharing that blog I enjoyed it! My point in posting the Creeds was due to Gooses statement;
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed.
I figured the slight variation was that they maybe reciting the Nicene Creed and not the Apostles Creed. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, we recite the Nicene Creed in my church.)
When Christ told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise." I believe that's where he was. I do not hold the view that Christ went to Hell for three days. I used to believe he did. Though I don't believe that Christ was in Hell for three days does not mean that I don't believe there is a Hell. I am quite certain there is one.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by FredS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:04 pm

Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:41 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:48 pm
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:43 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 pm
Yes, the Council of Nicea very deliberately deleted the line about Jesus descending to hell.
Not sure how deliberate it was. I believe that the Nicene Creed came before the Apostles Creed.
I see. Another view is that the line about Jesus descending to some other place was added to the Apostles creed after Nicea.

Here's a link to a blog post by my pastor that discusses the topic.

The creeds are different. Not by misquote, mistake, or language creep, but for specific reasons.

My whole point in bringing up the Apostles Creed is that Goose said he proclaims it. And I say he shouldn't proclaim it if he doesn't agree with it or fully understand it. It speaks of Christ's body being buried while His soul was in hell. I understand also that Gooses original question is about human souls, not Gods soul, but Jesus was fully human, for the same creed says He was 'born of the virgin Mary'. So there is a soul than can be apart from the body. For three days or three kabillion days it doesn't say.
Thank you for sharing that blog I enjoyed it! My point in posting the Creeds was due to Gooses statement;
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed.
I figured the slight variation was that they maybe reciting the Nicene Creed and not the Apostles Creed. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, we recite the Nicene Creed in my church.)
When Christ told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise." I believe that's where he was. I do not hold the view that Christ went to Hell for three days. I used to believe he did. Though I don't believe that Christ was in Hell for three days does not mean that I don't believe there is a Hell. I am quite certain there is one.
Yep. As every English teacher and lawyer says "Words Matter". Our practices of Tweets, texts, truncated posts on internet forums, and just plain sloppy speech can cause us to lose sight of that fact, but when creeds (or modern mission statements) are created, every single word is precise. I've been on committees to create corporate mission statements and - if done with intention - it's a grueling process where every word and concept is debated to insure it communicates the intended message. The "slight variations' Goose mentioned can be yuge and shouldn't be passed of with the wave of a hand. Goose would do well to understand which Creed he says and why.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by UncleBob » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:30 pm

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:56 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:32 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 pm
I think we only must have this question about where Lazarus was, when we hold to the idea that his spirit or soul went somewhere. If we can just accept the words of Jesus, plainly, we may hold that idea more loosely. I see in the New Testament, a great many references to resurrection. Jesus resurrected a number of people, including Lazarus. But we see two different resurrections.....

John 5: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
So all we must do is ignore everything Jesus said about hell, then read something else as if it doesn't have a plain meaning?

Goose, you can argue better than this. Arguments must progress logically, with some sort of premises supporting the conclusion. I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong. We believe differently. But give me something to understand where you're coming from.
I'm non-traditional. I'm coming from a place that wants to accept such scripture as 1 Timothy 6:16 at face value: "Only God has immortality." Maybe someone here can find it, but I'm not seeing anything in the surrounding context of that verse to suggest anything other than a face value understanding of that verse. "The gift of God is eternal life." (Romans 6). A gift is something good, and something we receive. God would certainly not give the "gift" of eternal life to the wicked, in order that He could burn the wicked forever. That would make God into a monster. This is where I am coming from.

And no, we ought not ignore what Jesus said about "hell." Only seek to understand what He meant, so as not to ignore these verses I mentioned above.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:08 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:56 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:32 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 pm
I think we only must have this question about where Lazarus was, when we hold to the idea that his spirit or soul went somewhere. If we can just accept the words of Jesus, plainly, we may hold that idea more loosely. I see in the New Testament, a great many references to resurrection. Jesus resurrected a number of people, including Lazarus. But we see two different resurrections.....

John 5: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
So all we must do is ignore everything Jesus said about hell, then read something else as if it doesn't have a plain meaning?

Goose, you can argue better than this. Arguments must progress logically, with some sort of premises supporting the conclusion. I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong. We believe differently. But give me something to understand where you're coming from.
I'm non-traditional. I'm coming from a place that wants to accept such scripture as 1 Timothy 6:16 at face value: "Only God has immortality." Maybe someone here can find it, but I'm not seeing anything in the surrounding context of that verse to suggest anything other than a face value understanding of that verse. "The gift of God is eternal life." (Romans 6). A gift is something good, and something we receive. This is where I am coming from.

And no, we ought not ignore what Jesus said about "hell." Only seek to understand what He meant, so as not to ignore these verses I mentioned above.
Ok. Good, in fact. Do you mind indulging me? This is the first I've heard of this particular belief and I'm beyond curious. I want to know how you get there.

So we have:

1. Only God has immortality.

2. The gift of God is eternal life.

I can see the start of this. God alone is per se immortal, but has given immortal life. Keep going and get me to "Therefore, there is no Hell." I promise not to throw a single monkey wrench into your thoughts. I just want to see if a logical argument can be made for your position.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:19 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:08 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:56 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:32 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 pm
I think we only must have this question about where Lazarus was, when we hold to the idea that his spirit or soul went somewhere. If we can just accept the words of Jesus, plainly, we may hold that idea more loosely. I see in the New Testament, a great many references to resurrection. Jesus resurrected a number of people, including Lazarus. But we see two different resurrections.....

John 5: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
So all we must do is ignore everything Jesus said about hell, then read something else as if it doesn't have a plain meaning?

Goose, you can argue better than this. Arguments must progress logically, with some sort of premises supporting the conclusion. I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong. We believe differently. But give me something to understand where you're coming from.
I'm non-traditional. I'm coming from a place that wants to accept such scripture as 1 Timothy 6:16 at face value: "Only God has immortality." Maybe someone here can find it, but I'm not seeing anything in the surrounding context of that verse to suggest anything other than a face value understanding of that verse. "The gift of God is eternal life." (Romans 6). A gift is something good, and something we receive. This is where I am coming from.

And no, we ought not ignore what Jesus said about "hell." Only seek to understand what He meant, so as not to ignore these verses I mentioned above.
Ok. Good, in fact. Do you mind indulging me? This is the first I've heard of this particular belief and I'm beyond curious. I want to know how you get there.

So we have:

1. Only God has immortality.

2. The gift of God is eternal life.

I can see the start of this. God alone is per se immortal, but has given immortal life. Keep going and get me to "Therefore, there is no Hell." I promise not to throw a single monkey wrench into your thoughts. I just want to see if a logical argument can be made for your position.
A perfect scripture is Malachi chapter 4

Malachi 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:55 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:19 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:08 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:56 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:32 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 pm
I think we only must have this question about where Lazarus was, when we hold to the idea that his spirit or soul went somewhere. If we can just accept the words of Jesus, plainly, we may hold that idea more loosely. I see in the New Testament, a great many references to resurrection. Jesus resurrected a number of people, including Lazarus. But we see two different resurrections.....

John 5: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
So all we must do is ignore everything Jesus said about hell, then read something else as if it doesn't have a plain meaning?

Goose, you can argue better than this. Arguments must progress logically, with some sort of premises supporting the conclusion. I'm not saying you're right and I'm not saying you're wrong. We believe differently. But give me something to understand where you're coming from.
I'm non-traditional. I'm coming from a place that wants to accept such scripture as 1 Timothy 6:16 at face value: "Only God has immortality." Maybe someone here can find it, but I'm not seeing anything in the surrounding context of that verse to suggest anything other than a face value understanding of that verse. "The gift of God is eternal life." (Romans 6). A gift is something good, and something we receive. This is where I am coming from.

And no, we ought not ignore what Jesus said about "hell." Only seek to understand what He meant, so as not to ignore these verses I mentioned above.
Ok. Good, in fact. Do you mind indulging me? This is the first I've heard of this particular belief and I'm beyond curious. I want to know how you get there.

So we have:

1. Only God has immortality.

2. The gift of God is eternal life.

I can see the start of this. God alone is per se immortal, but has given immortal life. Keep going and get me to "Therefore, there is no Hell." I promise not to throw a single monkey wrench into your thoughts. I just want to see if a logical argument can be made for your position.
A perfect scripture is Malachi chapter 4

Malachi 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
Good. We're getting there. Is there anything here that confirms or denies our two premises? What does this verse mean to you? Help me flesh it out. What does this passage mean to you? Anything corroborated by the Son of Man?

I'm not trying to be a pain. Right now it's just too easy for people to argue against you because we are dealing with single passages at a time and that leads to the charge that you haven't thought this through. I suspect you have, we just can't see the thoughts and need them explained. Or I do. If This is annoying, tell me and I'll quit.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by FredS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:24 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:19 pm
. . .2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. . .
Great. I'll have eternal life. As a cow in a barn.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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