Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Rusty » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:06 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:45 am
C.S. Lewis wrote:When all the suns and nebulae have passed away, each one of you will still be alive.
Define "each", "one", "of", "you", and "alive", please. Also, I don't believe in suns or nebulous nebulae.
If I burned in the sun like you (and I do) I would have no trouble believing in the Sun, suns etc (and I don't have any trouble believing). Nebulae don't burn us quite so badly as florescent lights but.... they exist. Creation is ongoing. And their era defines the teenage years of universe. It's not over after they're done.

After the stellar era the black holes will remain for a much longer time. The black hole era will be old age. I doubt that Hawking radiation can burn us. I suppose you have trouble with Hawking radiation. Thermodynamics is convincing.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:48 am

Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:06 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:45 am
C.S. Lewis wrote:When all the suns and nebulae have passed away, each one of you will still be alive.
Define "each", "one", "of", "you", and "alive", please. Also, I don't believe in suns or nebulous nebulae.
If I burned in the sun like you (and I do) I would have no trouble believing in the Sun, suns etc (and I don't have any trouble believing). Nebulae don't burn us quite so badly as florescent lights but.... they exist. Creation is ongoing. And their era defines the teenage years of universe. It's not over after they're done.

After the stellar era the black holes will remain for a much longer time. The black hole era will be old age. I doubt that Hawking radiation can burn us. I suppose you have trouble with Hawking radiation. Thermodynamics is convincing.
If you're being serious, you are mad as the March hare.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Rusty » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:11 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:48 am
Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:06 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:45 am
C.S. Lewis wrote:When all the suns and nebulae have passed away, each one of you will still be alive.
Define "each", "one", "of", "you", and "alive", please. Also, I don't believe in suns or nebulous nebulae.
If I burned in the sun like you (and I do) I would have no trouble believing in the Sun, suns etc (and I don't have any trouble believing). Nebulae don't burn us quite so badly as florescent lights but.... they exist. Creation is ongoing. And their era defines the teenage years of universe. It's not over after they're done.

After the stellar era the black holes will remain for a much longer time. The black hole era will be old age. I doubt that Hawking radiation can burn us. I suppose you have trouble with Hawking radiation. Thermodynamics is convincing.
If you're being serious, you are mad as the March hare.
Which parts did you have trouble with? That's the situation as we know it. CS Lewis had an unfortunate obsolete idea of the universe.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:11 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:48 am
Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:06 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:45 am
C.S. Lewis wrote:When all the suns and nebulae have passed away, each one of you will still be alive.
Define "each", "one", "of", "you", and "alive", please. Also, I don't believe in suns or nebulous nebulae.
If I burned in the sun like you (and I do) I would have no trouble believing in the Sun, suns etc (and I don't have any trouble believing). Nebulae don't burn us quite so badly as florescent lights but.... they exist. Creation is ongoing. And their era defines the teenage years of universe. It's not over after they're done.

After the stellar era the black holes will remain for a much longer time. The black hole era will be old age. I doubt that Hawking radiation can burn us. I suppose you have trouble with Hawking radiation. Thermodynamics is convincing.
If you're being serious, you are mad as the March hare.
What parts did you have trouble with? That's the situation as we know it. CS Lewis had an unfortunate obsolete idea of the universe.
The fact that you seriously thought that post was necessary troubles me. Well, not "troubles." "Troubles" is the wrong word. It ennervated me. It inspired me to laughter.

I'd respected you up to this point. Now that I know you believe in "suns" and "nebulae", "black holes" and "thermodynamics"....well, now I know you're crazy.

P.S. Hawking is screaming for a wedgie.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Rusty » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:31 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:20 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:11 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:48 am
Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:06 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:45 am
C.S. Lewis wrote:When all the suns and nebulae have passed away, each one of you will still be alive.
Define "each", "one", "of", "you", and "alive", please. Also, I don't believe in suns or nebulous nebulae.
If I burned in the sun like you (and I do) I would have no trouble believing in the Sun, suns etc (and I don't have any trouble believing). Nebulae don't burn us quite so badly as florescent lights but.... they exist. Creation is ongoing. And their era defines the teenage years of universe. It's not over after they're done.

After the stellar era the black holes will remain for a much longer time. The black hole era will be old age. I doubt that Hawking radiation can burn us. I suppose you have trouble with Hawking radiation. Thermodynamics is convincing.
If you're being serious, you are mad as the March hare.
What parts did you have trouble with? That's the situation as we know it. CS Lewis had an unfortunate obsolete idea of the universe.
The fact that you seriously thought that post was necessary troubles me. Well, not "troubles." "Troubles" is the wrong word. It ennervated me. It inspired me to laughter.

I'd respected you up to this point. Now that I know you believe in "suns" and "nebulae", "black holes" and "thermodynamics"....well, now I know you're crazy.

P.S. Hawking is screaming for a wedgie.
I do have trouble believing the idea of souls. Again thermodynamics is a problem. Hawking is far too delicate for a wedgie. The Pope is sporting a black eye. Did you have him punched?

Hawking is saying we need to diversify off world. I'm a skeptic about that. It's not that it isn't a good idea. It's tough to do. People that leave New Orleans where it is and simply rebuild are unlikely to leave.
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You're out of the dark
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:50 pm

Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:31 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:20 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:11 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:48 am
Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:06 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:45 am
C.S. Lewis wrote:When all the suns and nebulae have passed away, each one of you will still be alive.
Define "each", "one", "of", "you", and "alive", please. Also, I don't believe in suns or nebulous nebulae.
If I burned in the sun like you (and I do) I would have no trouble believing in the Sun, suns etc (and I don't have any trouble believing). Nebulae don't burn us quite so badly as florescent lights but.... they exist. Creation is ongoing. And their era defines the teenage years of universe. It's not over after they're done.

After the stellar era the black holes will remain for a much longer time. The black hole era will be old age. I doubt that Hawking radiation can burn us. I suppose you have trouble with Hawking radiation. Thermodynamics is convincing.
If you're being serious, you are mad as the March hare.
What parts did you have trouble with? That's the situation as we know it. CS Lewis had an unfortunate obsolete idea of the universe.
The fact that you seriously thought that post was necessary troubles me. Well, not "troubles." "Troubles" is the wrong word. It ennervated me. It inspired me to laughter.

I'd respected you up to this point. Now that I know you believe in "suns" and "nebulae", "black holes" and "thermodynamics"....well, now I know you're crazy.

P.S. Hawking is screaming for a wedgie.
I do have trouble believing the idea of souls. Again thermodynamics is a problem. Hawking is far too delicate for a wedgie. The Pope is sporting a black eye. Did you have him punched?

Hawking is saying we need to diversify off world. I'm a skeptic about that. It's not that it isn't a good idea. It's tough to do. People that leave New Orleans where it is and simply rebuild are unlikely to leave.
Well, that's tough to argue with.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. Those who will have "no more pain" in 21:4 are God's people who live in God's city:
Revelation 21:3-4 wrote:And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. [4] He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
They are contrasted with those who are not God's people and who are "outside" of God's city in chapter 22:
Revelation 22:14-15 wrote:Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. [15] Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
"No more pain" is not promised to those outside God's city, rather:
Revelation 21:8 wrote:But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. But you knew that, didn't you?
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm

+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo




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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by UncleBob » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm

wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Death is often understood, in these eschatological contexts, as separation. So, one could be eternally separated and eternally tormented by that separation even apart from physical torment. Frankly, this makes the most sense to me--especially in light of Romans 6.
Last edited by UncleBob on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm

wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Please make your argument from scripture rather than cutting it out.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:14 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm
wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Death is often understood, in these eschatological contexts, as separation. So, one could be eternally separated and eternally tormented by that separation even apart from physical torment. Frankly, this makes the most sense to me--especially in light of Romans 6.
Just to clarify, you are going for a more Eastern Orthodox understanding of the situation: The torment is not an active punishment on God's part, but more of a self-inflicted torment on the part of the sinner due to his separation from a good God?
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:15 pm

+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm
wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Please make your argument from scripture rather than cutting it out.
Is that in the new ToS?




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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:24 pm

wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:15 pm
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm
wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Please make your argument from scripture rather than cutting it out.
Is that in the new ToS?
Coco's anus isn't happy, maybe. :D
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by UncleBob » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:40 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:14 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm
wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Death is often understood, in these eschatological contexts, as separation. So, one could be eternally separated and eternally tormented by that separation even apart from physical torment. Frankly, this makes the most sense to me--especially in light of Romans 6.
Just to clarify, you are going for a more Eastern Orthodox understanding of the situation: The torment is not an active punishment on God's part, but more of a self-inflicted torment on the part of the sinner due to his separation from a good God?
I am not advocating any particular position but, rather, answering the question: "But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?" Now I do think one could make a strong argument for "self-inflicted torment" especially in Romans 6. Paul seems to argue:

1. You were a slave
2. You are free through Christ
3. Stop selling yourselves back into slavery, numbnuts!

But this is certainly not the only way to understand death. One can also understand death as release or freedom (as Goose seems to be at least implicitly arguing). But not so within Revelation or Romans 6, IMO.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:44 pm

The following is an excerpt of the web page: http://www.jba.gr/The-origins-of-the-do ... e-soul.htm

Immortality of the soul: a platonic belief

Concerning the origins of the idea of the immortality of the soul, this belief comes from Greek philosophy, expounded especially by two of the chief Greek Philosophers: Plato and Socrates. Plato, though not the first to assert the doctrine of the immortal soul, he was definitely the most eloquent one. As Werner Jaeger of Harvard University says:

“The immortality of man was one of the foundational creeds of the philosophical religion of Platonism that was in part adopted by the Christian church” (Werner Jaeger, “The Greek ideas of immortality”, Harvard Theological Review, Volume LII, July 1959, Number 3, emphasis added ).

As The Catholic Encyclopedia (Topic: the platonic school) also informs us:

“The great majority of the Christian philosophers down to St. Augustine were Platonists.”

What did then Plato believe about the soul? Plato was a disciple of another great Greek philosopher, Socrates. Plato’s work “Phaedo” is a dialogue which depicts the death of Socrates. The dialogue supposedly took place on the last day of Socrates, before being executed by drinking hemlock. As Wikipedia says: “one of the main themes in the Phaedo is the idea that the soul is immortal”. We could consider “Phaedo” a work that gives the combined beliefs of Plato and Socrates, the two greatest Greek philosophers on the matter. Here are some passages from this work (Taken from the following website: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.html ):

“The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intelligible, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable …. It goes away to the pure, and eternal, and immortal, and unchangeable, to which she is kin." (Phaedo)

And again:

“The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible ... Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body."
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:47 pm

Here are a few references that indicate that non-Christians face a conscious, eternal punishment, and are not annihilated in Hell:
Matthew 25:41, 46 wrote:Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Note the parallelism: The eternal fiery punishment for the wicked is paralleled to the eternality of life given to believers. Both forms of future existence are without end. To say that one ends and the other does not ruins Matthew's parallelism.
Revelation 14:11 wrote:And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
"Forever and ever" in this verse is language that is synonymous in meaning to "eternal." Thus, in order to say that the wicked are annihilated, one must explain how both terms mean something else in context. Likewise, "no rest, day or night" indicates an ongoing torment that does not cease (The merism means the same thing in Greek as it does in English).

Bearing in mind the common eschatological location for Satan and unbelievers, the following verse also indicates that Hell involves everlasting torment:
Revelation 20:10 wrote:The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Double merisms for emphasis)

When the Bible refers to the future state of unbelievers as "death," this must be qualified by verses like the following. Hell is a place:
Mark 9:48 wrote:where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Thus, the future state of death is not unconscious for unbelievers, but rather involves eternal fire.

Our response to this should be like that of Paul, who said, "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart" (Rom 9:2). We should pray for sinners and tell them of Christ who saves.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:56 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:44 pm
The following is an excerpt of the web page: http://www.jba.gr/The-origins-of-the-do ... e-soul.htm

Immortality of the soul: a platonic belief

Concerning the origins of the idea of the immortality of the soul, this belief comes from Greek philosophy, expounded especially by two of the chief Greek Philosophers: Plato and Socrates. Plato, though not the first to assert the doctrine of the immortal soul, he was definitely the most eloquent one. As Werner Jaeger of Harvard University says:

“The immortality of man was one of the foundational creeds of the philosophical religion of Platonism that was in part adopted by the Christian church” (Werner Jaeger, “The Greek ideas of immortality”, Harvard Theological Review, Volume LII, July 1959, Number 3, emphasis added ).

As The Catholic Encyclopedia (Topic: the platonic school) also informs us:

“The great majority of the Christian philosophers down to St. Augustine were Platonists.”

What did then Plato believe about the soul? Plato was a disciple of another great Greek philosopher, Socrates. Plato’s work “Phaedo” is a dialogue which depicts the death of Socrates. The dialogue supposedly took place on the last day of Socrates, before being executed by drinking hemlock. As Wikipedia says: “one of the main themes in the Phaedo is the idea that the soul is immortal”. We could consider “Phaedo” a work that gives the combined beliefs of Plato and Socrates, the two greatest Greek philosophers on the matter. Here are some passages from this work (Taken from the following website: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.html ):

“The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intelligible, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable …. It goes away to the pure, and eternal, and immortal, and unchangeable, to which she is kin." (Phaedo)

And again:

“The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible ... Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body."
Many before and after Plato have believed in the immortality of the soul. Thus, it is questionable, at best, to say that Christian philosophers naively followed Plato concerning the immortality of the soul. Indeed, they denied part of Plato's teachings concerning it: Plato believed the soul had no beginning and no end, while the Christian philosophers in question believed it had a beginning but no end. Perhaps they were following the Bible, not Plato?
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:01 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:40 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:14 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm
wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Death is often understood, in these eschatological contexts, as separation. So, one could be eternally separated and eternally tormented by that separation even apart from physical torment. Frankly, this makes the most sense to me--especially in light of Romans 6.
Just to clarify, you are going for a more Eastern Orthodox understanding of the situation: The torment is not an active punishment on God's part, but more of a self-inflicted torment on the part of the sinner due to his separation from a good God?
I am not advocating any particular position but, rather, answering the question: "But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?" Now I do think one could make a strong argument for "self-inflicted torment" especially in Romans 6. Paul seems to argue:

1. You were a slave
2. You are free through Christ
3. Stop selling yourselves back into slavery, numbnuts!

But this is certainly not the only way to understand death. One can also understand death as release or freedom (as Goose seems to be at least implicitly arguing). But not so within Revelation or Romans 6, IMO.
Gotcha.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:02 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:24 pm
wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:15 pm
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:03 pm
wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:57 am
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:25 pm
If there will be "no more pain," as is written in Rev 21, how can there be a place of eternal torment?
The context of chapters 21 and 22 provides the answer. …
Interesting. If mortals have everlasting immortals souls, how then can it be called death?
It is an existence that cannot rightly be called "life," an everlasting death. …
But, by that selfsame logic, can it be rightly called "death"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Please make your argument from scripture rather than cutting it out.
Is that in the new ToS?
Coco's anus isn't happy, maybe. :D
Reminds me of a sermon title

:D
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:14 pm

Rusty wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am
.... I doubt that Hawking radiation can burn us. I suppose you have trouble with Hawking radiation.
I found this, which is fascinating:
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/hawk.html wrote:The Hawking temperature of a 30 solar mass black hole is a tiny 2×10-9 Kelvin, and its Hawking luminosity a miserable 10-31 Watts. Bigger black holes are colder and dimmer: the Hawking temperature is inversely proportional to the mass, while the Hawking luminosity is inversely proportional to the square of the mass.
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