Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:20 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:56 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:44 pm
The following is an excerpt of the web page: http://www.jba.gr/The-origins-of-the-do ... e-soul.htm

Immortality of the soul: a platonic belief

Concerning the origins of the idea of the immortality of the soul, this belief comes from Greek philosophy, expounded especially by two of the chief Greek Philosophers: Plato and Socrates. Plato, though not the first to assert the doctrine of the immortal soul, he was definitely the most eloquent one. As Werner Jaeger of Harvard University says:

“The immortality of man was one of the foundational creeds of the philosophical religion of Platonism that was in part adopted by the Christian church” (Werner Jaeger, “The Greek ideas of immortality”, Harvard Theological Review, Volume LII, July 1959, Number 3, emphasis added ).

As The Catholic Encyclopedia (Topic: the platonic school) also informs us:

“The great majority of the Christian philosophers down to St. Augustine were Platonists.”

What did then Plato believe about the soul? Plato was a disciple of another great Greek philosopher, Socrates. Plato’s work “Phaedo” is a dialogue which depicts the death of Socrates. The dialogue supposedly took place on the last day of Socrates, before being executed by drinking hemlock. As Wikipedia says: “one of the main themes in the Phaedo is the idea that the soul is immortal”. We could consider “Phaedo” a work that gives the combined beliefs of Plato and Socrates, the two greatest Greek philosophers on the matter. Here are some passages from this work (Taken from the following website: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.html ):

“The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intelligible, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable …. It goes away to the pure, and eternal, and immortal, and unchangeable, to which she is kin." (Phaedo)

And again:

“The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible ... Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body."
Many before and after Plato have believed in the immortality of the soul. Thus, it is questionable, at best, to say that Christian philosophers naively followed Plato concerning the immortality of the soul. Indeed, they denied part of Plato's teachings concerning it: Plato believed the soul had no beginning and no end, while the Christian philosophers in question believed it had a beginning but no end. Perhaps they were following the Bible, not Plato?
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:38 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:47 pm
When the Bible refers to the future state of unbelievers as "death," this must be qualified by verses like the following. Hell is a place:
Mark 9:48 wrote:where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Thus, the future state of death is not unconscious for unbelievers, but rather involves eternal fire.
Coco, when you state that "Hell is a place," I look at the preceding verse, Mk 9:27. Jesus used the word "Gehenna," which was the name for Jerusalem's city dump. The fire never went out and the worm did not die, because people kept throwing their garbage in there.

So, with all due respect, what I believe Jesus was essentially saying is "Don't let your life wind up on the scrap heap." I do not think we are on solid ground to imply that He was speaking of some other place of burning.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by coco » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:44 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:38 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:47 pm
When the Bible refers to the future state of unbelievers as "death," this must be qualified by verses like the following. Hell is a place:
Mark 9:48 wrote:where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Thus, the future state of death is not unconscious for unbelievers, but rather involves eternal fire.
Coco, when you state that "Hell is a place," I look at the preceding verse, Mk 9:27. Jesus used the word "Gehenna," which was the name for Jerusalem's city dump. The fire never went out and the worm did not die, because people kept throwing their garbage in there.

So, with all due respect, what I believe Jesus was essentially saying is "Don't let your life wind up on the scrap heap." I do not think we are on solid ground to imply that He was speaking of some other place of burning.
In this thread, as in others, you haven't really said what you understand the eternal state of unbelievers to be. So, what exactly should they expect?

While you are at it, please tell us what believers should expect. Is there a heaven? Is it a place? Is it eternal?

(I think that the parallelism in Mark 9 is instructive. To "enter life" is fits nicely with Heaven being a place that may be entered, namely the abode of believers. Likewise, Hell is a place that is the abode of unbelievers.)
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:02 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:44 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:38 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:47 pm
When the Bible refers to the future state of unbelievers as "death," this must be qualified by verses like the following. Hell is a place:
Mark 9:48 wrote:where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Thus, the future state of death is not unconscious for unbelievers, but rather involves eternal fire.
Coco, when you state that "Hell is a place," I look at the preceding verse, Mk 9:27. Jesus used the word "Gehenna," which was the name for Jerusalem's city dump. The fire never went out and the worm did not die, because people kept throwing their garbage in there.

So, with all due respect, what I believe Jesus was essentially saying is "Don't let your life wind up on the scrap heap." I do not think we are on solid ground to imply that He was speaking of some other place of burning.
In this thread, as in others, you haven't really said what you understand the eternal state of unbelievers to be. So, what exactly should they expect?

While you are at it, please tell us what believers should expect. Is there a heaven? Is it a place? Is it eternal?
Throughout the New Testament we read over and over again about resurrection. And there is no need to cite the verses. There are too many. Believers can expect resurrection. It seems to me that if believers "souls" go to Heaven when they die, what would be the purpose of resurrection?

But here is a pretty plain and concise description of what "unbelievers" can expect. I put that in quotes, for Thomas was once an "unbeliever," too. Let us instead consider the term "the wicked"....

Malachi 4:1....
“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them."

v3 explains further:
"Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

stubble and ashes do not burn
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:14 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:02 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:44 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:38 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:47 pm
When the Bible refers to the future state of unbelievers as "death," this must be qualified by verses like the following. Hell is a place:
Mark 9:48 wrote:where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Thus, the future state of death is not unconscious for unbelievers, but rather involves eternal fire.
Coco, when you state that "Hell is a place," I look at the preceding verse, Mk 9:27. Jesus used the word "Gehenna," which was the name for Jerusalem's city dump. The fire never went out and the worm did not die, because people kept throwing their garbage in there.

So, with all due respect, what I believe Jesus was essentially saying is "Don't let your life wind up on the scrap heap." I do not think we are on solid ground to imply that He was speaking of some other place of burning.
In this thread, as in others, you haven't really said what you understand the eternal state of unbelievers to be. So, what exactly should they expect?

While you are at it, please tell us what believers should expect. Is there a heaven? Is it a place? Is it eternal?
Throughout the New Testament we read over and over again about resurrection. And there is no need to cite the verses. There are too many. Believers can expect resurrection. It seems to me that if believers "souls" go to Heaven when they die, what would be the purpose of resurrection?

But here is a pretty plain and concise description of what "unbelievers" can expect. I put that in quotes, for Thomas was once an "unbeliever," too. Let us instead consider the term "the wicked"....

Malachi 4:1....
“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them."

v3 explains further:
"Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

stubble and ashes do not burn
I find it reassuring that the juvenile firebug never lit corn stubble on fire. It burns, sir. Easily. Spreads, too. :D
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by A_Morley » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:25 pm

And with every post when you humor him, treat him like "a good egg", and shrug it off with a flippant smily face you simply blow on the embers. How it is that you people continue to hold out hope for the unlikely wisdom of presumptuous rustics I will never understand.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:31 pm

A_Morley wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:25 pm
And with every post when you humor him, treat him like "a good egg", and shrug it off with a flippant smily face you simply blow on the embers. How it is that you people continue to hold out hope for the unlikely wisdom of presumptuous rustics I will never understand.
Oddly enough, it's much the same toleration some of us hold for a jumped up regional actor so obsessed with the rules of gentlemanly behavior that he rather frequently acts the cad. God, "presumptuous rustic" should appear engraved upon your tombstone.

:D
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by UncleBob » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:33 pm

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by UncleBob » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:34 pm

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by A_Morley » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:46 pm

If I'm in the same category as goose I think that the best thing to do would be to step away so you only have to humor the one of us then.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by FredS » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Goose, you seem to have an unhealthy focus on the end. The Oroville dam scare a while ago and now threads about hell, eternity, and imortality. I'll say this - we don't know what tomorrow will bring, let alone eternity. We don't know even about our next breath, why would we know or understand anything furhter than that? In fact, I say we CAN'T know those things, for if we do we will live different lives.

Here's my focus at the end of each day -

Am I closer to God today than I was yesterday?

That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. I'm focused on Him. Did I step in the right direction or did I step back? Doesn't matter where I started or even where I end. All I can do is point myself in the right direction and walk.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Del » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:20 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:56 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:44 pm
The following is an excerpt of the web page: http://www.jba.gr/The-origins-of-the-do ... e-soul.htm

Immortality of the soul: a platonic belief

Concerning the origins of the idea of the immortality of the soul, this belief comes from Greek philosophy, expounded especially by two of the chief Greek Philosophers: Plato and Socrates. Plato, though not the first to assert the doctrine of the immortal soul, he was definitely the most eloquent one. As Werner Jaeger of Harvard University says:

“The immortality of man was one of the foundational creeds of the philosophical religion of Platonism that was in part adopted by the Christian church” (Werner Jaeger, “The Greek ideas of immortality”, Harvard Theological Review, Volume LII, July 1959, Number 3, emphasis added ).

As The Catholic Encyclopedia (Topic: the platonic school) also informs us:

“The great majority of the Christian philosophers down to St. Augustine were Platonists.”

What did then Plato believe about the soul? Plato was a disciple of another great Greek philosopher, Socrates. Plato’s work “Phaedo” is a dialogue which depicts the death of Socrates. The dialogue supposedly took place on the last day of Socrates, before being executed by drinking hemlock. As Wikipedia says: “one of the main themes in the Phaedo is the idea that the soul is immortal”. We could consider “Phaedo” a work that gives the combined beliefs of Plato and Socrates, the two greatest Greek philosophers on the matter. Here are some passages from this work (Taken from the following website: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.html ):

“The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intelligible, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable …. It goes away to the pure, and eternal, and immortal, and unchangeable, to which she is kin." (Phaedo)

And again:

“The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible ... Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body."
Many before and after Plato have believed in the immortality of the soul. Thus, it is questionable, at best, to say that Christian philosophers naively followed Plato concerning the immortality of the soul. Indeed, they denied part of Plato's teachings concerning it: Plato believed the soul had no beginning and no end, while the Christian philosophers in question believed it had a beginning but no end. Perhaps they were following the Bible, not Plato?
Did anybody notice Goose Del-Splaining Catholicism again? Do you know what moderating two Dels is like?
For my part, I am glad that Mr. Goose appears to be trying understand Catholic faith. He looks stuff up in the Catholic Encyclopedia, right? Glad to see the effort.

The bolded part is the point of Goose's question: Death is not eternal. "Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.

This is a temporary state.... the body will be restored at the Resurrection of the Dead. Then the soul and the body will remain together forever, as God originally intended for us before our parents originally sinned.

There is a another sort of death, one in which our souls (and eventually, our resurrected bodies) may find ourselves separated from the God who made us for Himself. Separated from that Being which we are made for is the ultimate eternal death. Much like annihilation, except that we will be aware that we are not whole as we are meant to be. This is a miserable existence. Avoid it!
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Del » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:32 pm

Bob's yer Uncle wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:34 pm
Image
That is a troubling cartoon.

Aristotle was the student of Plato, and they got along well.

St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are both Doctors of the Church, great teachers of truth whom the Church hold up together in highest esteem. They do not argue with each other.

The best we can say is that the schools of Plato/Augustine and Aristotle/Aquinas take different paths in their approach to unveiling the same hidden truths.

Plato liked to ponder the eternal Forms and ideal things, in an effort to understand our material existence.

Aristotle liked to examine the material world, as we perceive it through our senses, to pierce the veil and penetrate the mystery of eternal existence.

They were all correct in their wisdom. Plato and Aristotle both knew that there must be a God, and that there can only be One God. We wonder at what they could have done, if they had owned the wisdom that every medieval alewife held in the Apostle's Creed.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Cleon » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:28 am

So, what's the consensus here?
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Jester » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:37 am

Cleon wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:28 am
So, what's the consensus here?
Immortal yet finite.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by wosbald » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:29 am

+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:37 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:28 am
So, what's the consensus here?
Immortal yet finite.
Well, I'm glad that's settled.

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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Goose55 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
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Re: Do Humans Really Have Immortal Souls?

Post by Jester » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 am

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:14 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:15 pm
"Death," as we call it, is the separation of the soul from the body. It is the body that dies, while the soul lives on.
But it is interesting that Jesus many times referred to death as "sleep." If the soul separates from the body at death, would not Jesus have done Lazarus a disservice to recall his soul from wherever it went when he died?

Something to ponder.
Not really, to me at least. It seems that Lazarus' soul would have been in Hell. The Hell that Jesus harrowed after His death but before his Resurrection. You know, "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty." Those three days. The ones where Jesus Himself descended into Hell.

Do you reject the Apostle's Creed? No insult, just curious.
We recite the Apostles Creed at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and it sounds true. There might be slight variations of the wording in the Creed. I don't know. The "hell" Jesus descended into I think comes from the Hebrew word "hades," which means simply death. Others may have more to say about that.

I am also remembering that it states that Jesus loved (agape) Lazarus. If Jesus loved him, why would he send him to the flames? Jesus told his disciples that Lazarus was "asleep," and then later plainly said "Lazarus is dead." So, in my thinking anyway, death = sleep. A long sleep, albeit.
So a conscious sleep or complete destruction without any form of existing?
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