Annoying Christians - I get it

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Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Skip » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:38 am

The more I read of stuff from the likes of Dobson and Piper - and other "big names" in the evangelical business - the more I understand why non-Christians hate us. So busy pointing out sin. Sin, sin, sin. That's all it's about. Why the hell would they want to join us?

"Live wisely among those who are not believers, and make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be gracious and attractive so that you will have the right response for everyone."
- Colossians 4:5-6 (NLT)

They all seem to have mistaken "gracious and attractive" for "good dental work and a nice tie."
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Del » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:54 am

A lot of us are still way behind the curve.

When this was a Christian culture, we could help by pointing out -- "That is sinful behavior, and it won't make you happy."

But the culture is responding with, "You know what really makes us happy nowadays? The thought of watching lions tear you apart."

So we need to find new ways to show the world how to live again in happiness, goodness, truth, and beauty.


I wish we could bottle up the fun that we have at the Chicago Pipe Show, and sell it to the world. We won't tell them that it is Christian stuff.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by durangopipe » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:03 am

They all seem to have mistaken "gracious and attractive" for "good dental work and a nice tie."
And confuse happiness with ostentatious wealth.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by FredS » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:11 am

We talked about this the other night in our small group. Most of us are in our 50's and most of us were raised in churches that were fixated on sin. I commented that it all seemed to be about getting ourselves right before we die. It's only about getting in to heaven and not about how we live right here and now on earth. Jesus is our golden ticket to heaven, not our model of how to live in community.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Rusty » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:29 am

Hate may be too strong. Did you ever see the movie The Last Emperor? It's about the life of the last Emperor of China in the 20th C.

The culture war is a terrible way to spend something you hold dear as a way of life. One might assume that someone would decide on a different strategy since the only way to keep it alive and vibrant is to turn the decline back into growth. That's a big challenge but that is really the only winning strategy. And like it or not that is the strategy that you've been handed. Warring over cultural issues and starting new battles that are guaranteed to anger folks that might have been allies has got to be one of worst strategies to win converts. I think it's probably a divided community and there are likely many Christians that oppose things like HB2. But engaging religion plus politics is not a good strategy for winning over the hearts and minds lost.

I've mentioned before that Christians appeared quite different to me before I started reading here. They don't lead with culture war, prohibitions, or complaints about immorality.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Del » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:55 am

"We must grow to win. We must change to grow. Let's give the world what they want." -- Works okay as a business model, for the people who have something to sell. Books, for example.

But it does not work for Christian denominations. The churches that embraced the worldly values are the ones that are dying out the fastest. Episcopalians and Evanglical Lutherans come to mind. The current generation wisely observes that they can be worldly without bothering to support a church with worldly values.

Catholicism is still growing, world-wide, even as it loses ground in the post-Christian West. There are still parts of the world that are interested in truth, everlasting life, and sustainable culture.

And darn it.... Our flirtation with secular values gave us sex scandal in our clergy. Never again! Being secular will kill us faster than being faithful.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Skip » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:02 pm

No. This isn't about "culture wars" or the sexual revolution. Don't change my subject to match what you want to talk about.

This is about American Evangelicals making their primary talking points the sins of others and protecting themselves from the scary sinful sinners. They concentrate on the terrible and downplay the divine.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Jocose » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:14 pm

This is the Bible verse of the day on Youversion bible app.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Skip » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:16 pm

Jocose wrote:This is the Bible verse of the day on Youversion bible app.
Now I know what K-Love uses for their e-mails. Cool.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Del » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:27 pm

Skip wrote:No. This isn't about "culture wars" or the sexual revolution. Don't change my subject to match what you want to talk about.

This is about American Evangelicals making their primary talking points the sins of others and protecting themselves from the scary sinful sinners. They concentrate on the terrible and downplay the divine.

Sorry. In the OP, you mentioned that those BIG NAMES (whom I do not listen to) talked too much about "sin."

I did not realize that they were self-righteous blokes talking about "other people's sins."
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by Rusty » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:28 pm

Del wrote:"We must grow to win. We must change to grow. Let's give the world what they want." -- Works okay as a business model, for the people who have something to sell. Books, for example.

But it does not work for Christian denominations. The churches that embraced the worldly values are the ones that are dying out the fastest. Episcopalians and Evanglical Lutherans come to mind. The current generation wisely observes that they can be worldly without bothering to support a church with worldly values.

Catholicism is still growing, world-wide, even as it loses ground in the post-Christian West. There are still parts of the world that are interested in truth, everlasting life, and sustainable culture.

And darn it.... Our flirtation with secular values gave us sex scandal in our clergy. Never again! Being secular will kill us faster than being faithful.
You're missing the point. And Onyx will have some choice and critical words about your version of the cause of the sex scandal. I'll leave it be waiting for him.

The way the great Christian teachers introduced Christianity throughout the gentile west was to ask the political leadership in each territory to make laws consistent with Christian values and morality. The rules come first and maybe the hearts will follow later when we get around to sending them bibles. So it's important that you vote for people who will ban abortion (for example) and tell others to do the same because that is how it is done. No, and it hasn't worked. And there is no indication that it ever will. You've lost the hearts and minds. 2/3's want the abortion to remain as an option. The growing unaffiliated is another indicator. That's not the way you're told to make all nations Christian. It's not a political campaign, where a politician does it by legislation. It is pointless and irrelevant to blame the secular this or the secular that. Those that are growing Christianity in other places are doing something very different. If you were succeeding the title of this thread would be wonderful Christians.

It's odd that anyone persists in a terrible strategy that deters folks from being Christian and creates a growing unaffiliated population. It is killing the roots for subsequent generations. It means Christianity will diminish until you turn that around. It's the opposite of what you are asked to do.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by philofumo » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:29 pm

Skip wrote:
This is about American Evangelicals making their primary talking points the sins of others and protecting themselves from the scary sinful sinners. They concentrate on the terrible and downplay the divine.
Tis a sad fact.

I am from The South.

I was raised up in the fire and brimstone tradition, it caused fierce resentment and I rebelled against their heavy-handed tactics of guilt-trip city, it has taken me a long time to realize that my resentment is for certain institutions and not the Christian faith itself --- it is my belief that when Paul spoke of the church that rock was the human heart, not fancy stone buildings to be televised in grandeur, but I think that the Church is the human heart.

Although I've always felt the Holy Ghost and know'd it to be true and that joyous feeling is all I need.

I am currently searching for a congregation where perhaps I could fit in,
I need fellowship and guidance at this point in my life more than ever.

Divine joy always wins in the end.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by UncleBob » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:31 pm

Frankly, if we would just read Ecclesiastes, Christians might just make a difference today:
Ecclesiastes 7 wrote:
9 Do not be eager in your heart to be angry,
For anger resides in the bosom of fools.

10 Do not say, “Why is it that the former days were better than these?”
For it is not from wisdom that you ask about this.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by durangopipe » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:48 pm

. . . it has taken me a long time to realize that my resentment is for certain institutions and not the Christian faith itself
My experience as well.

Some resolve the conflict, after this epiphany, by searching for a tradition or denomnational home that feels right for them.

I've found myself, more and more, recognizing the truth of human fallability and accepting of the tremendous diversity among the body of believers and the complexity of church history.

As much as the inordinate focus on salvation, as opposed to discipleship, I'm disturbed by the "gospel of prosperity" as opposed to service.

But I do agree with the criticism contained in the original post.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by AFRS » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:52 pm

UncleBob wrote:Frankly, if we would just read Ecclesiastes, Christians might just make a difference today:
Christians made a difference yesterday. A big difference. And they did it by pointing out that what separates man from God is ... sin.

I think Piper is awesome. Can't get enough. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even Christians. What's the difference between you and the world?

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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by UncleBob » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:56 pm

AFRS wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Frankly, if we would just read Ecclesiastes, Christians might just make a difference today:
Christians made a difference yesterday. A big difference. And they did it by pointing out that what separates man from God is ... sin.

I think Piper is awesome. Can't get enough. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even Christians. What's the difference between you and the world?
Um.. we follow Christ. How about you, since yer asking?
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by AFRS » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:00 pm

UncleBob wrote:
AFRS wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Frankly, if we would just read Ecclesiastes, Christians might just make a difference today:
Christians made a difference yesterday. A big difference. And they did it by pointing out that what separates man from God is ... sin.

I think Piper is awesome. Can't get enough. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even Christians. What's the difference between you and the world?
Um.. we follow Christ. How about you, since yer asking?
I'm not asking. I'm making and observation. My dog follows me, doesn't make him human.

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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by UncleBob » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:01 pm

AFRS wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
AFRS wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Frankly, if we would just read Ecclesiastes, Christians might just make a difference today:
Christians made a difference yesterday. A big difference. And they did it by pointing out that what separates man from God is ... sin.

I think Piper is awesome. Can't get enough. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even Christians. What's the difference between you and the world?
Um.. we follow Christ. How about you, since yer asking?
I'm not asking. I'm making and observation. My dog follows me, doesn't make him human.
True, it just makes him faithful. That's all.
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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by UncleBob » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:04 pm

So much anger. Angry about the gays; angry about wedding cakes; angry about bathrooms and Hillary and Trump. Angry about everything and why? Because life is changing and it's not as good as it used to be for Christians. Hmm.
Ecclesiastes 7 wrote:
9 Do not be eager in your heart to be angry,
For anger resides in the bosom of fools.

10 Do not say, “Why is it that the former days were better than these?”
For it is not from wisdom that you ask about this.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS

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Re: Annoying Christians - I get it

Post by John-Boy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:10 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Ecclesiastes 7 wrote:
9 Do not be eager in your heart to be angry,
For anger resides in the bosom of fools.

10 Do not say, “Why is it that the former days were better than these?”
For it is not from wisdom that you ask about this.
Here. Here. Seems like there's a danger in getting angry with so much anger.
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