Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by Goose55 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Admittedly an apparent distinction between body and soul. But it says both are destroyed. Destroyed. Not burned forever.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by Jester » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:36 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Admittedly an apparent distinction between body and soul. But it says both are destroyed. Destroyed. Not burned forever.
Destroyed eternally, in Hell.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by FredS » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:43 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Admittedly an apparent distinction between body and soul. But it says both are destroyed. Destroyed. Not burned forever.
It doesn't say what you say it says.

"Can destroy" is not equal to will destroy.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by infidel » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by UncleBob » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:58 pm

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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by Goose55 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:01 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
Sounds like that to me, but Fred pointed out that just because God can destroy, it doesn't mean that He will. And the KJV is basically the same:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy both soul and body in hell."

The KJV translates *Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)

Nothing there about burning forever. Hmm. I wonder why
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by jruegg » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:16 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:01 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
Sounds like that to me, but Fred pointed out that just because God can destroy, it doesn't mean that He will. And the KJV is basically the same:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy both soul and body in hell."

The KJV translates *Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)

Nothing there about burning forever. At least not that I'm aware of.
Fixed it for you so as not to be accused of what you're often accused of.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by hugodrax » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:19 pm

jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:16 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:01 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
Sounds like that to me, but Fred pointed out that just because God can destroy, it doesn't mean that He will. And the KJV is basically the same:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy both soul and body in hell."

The KJV translates *Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)

Nothing there about burning forever. At least not that I'm aware of.
Fixed it for you so as not to be accused of what you're often accused of.
That's a terrible sentence.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by jruegg » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:21 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:19 pm
jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:16 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:01 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
Sounds like that to me, but Fred pointed out that just because God can destroy, it doesn't mean that He will. And the KJV is basically the same:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy both soul and body in hell."

The KJV translates *Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)

Nothing there about burning forever. At least not that I'm aware of.
Fixed it for you so as not to be accused of what you're often accused of.
That's a terrible sentence.
feel free to fix it for me.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by hugodrax » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:24 pm

jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:21 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:19 pm
jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:16 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:01 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
Sounds like that to me, but Fred pointed out that just because God can destroy, it doesn't mean that He will. And the KJV is basically the same:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy both soul and body in hell."

The KJV translates *Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)

Nothing there about burning forever. At least not that I'm aware of.
Fixed it for you so as not to be accused of what you're often accused of.
That's a terrible sentence.
feel free to fix it for me.
Nah. Smacks of effort. Question, though...what's the significance of jazz hands Jesus?
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by jruegg » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:29 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:24 pm
jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:21 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:19 pm
jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:16 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:01 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
Sounds like that to me, but Fred pointed out that just because God can destroy, it doesn't mean that He will. And the KJV is basically the same:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy both soul and body in hell."

The KJV translates *Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)

Nothing there about burning forever. At least not that I'm aware of.
Fixed it for you so as not to be accused of what you're often accused of.
That's a terrible sentence.
feel free to fix it for me.
Nah. Smacks of effort. Question, though...what's the significance of jazz hands Jesus?
Because.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by hugodrax » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:54 pm

jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:29 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:24 pm
jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:21 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:19 pm
jruegg wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:16 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:01 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am
Just got my daily verse, Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
"destroy" connotes an ending, yes?
Sounds like that to me, but Fred pointed out that just because God can destroy, it doesn't mean that He will. And the KJV is basically the same:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to *destroy both soul and body in hell."

The KJV translates *Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)

Nothing there about burning forever. At least not that I'm aware of.
Fixed it for you so as not to be accused of what you're often accused of.
That's a terrible sentence.
feel free to fix it for me.
Nah. Smacks of effort. Question, though...what's the significance of jazz hands Jesus?
Because.
I was hoping it was to show that He had a sense of humor.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by FredS » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:16 pm

The fact that a strange guy in PA can carry on a conversation with a strange guy in AZ as if they somehow know of an unknowable place or time, over a network of copper wires and glass fibers proves that He has a sense of humor
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by Skip » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm

FredS wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:16 pm
The fact that a strange guy in PA can carry on a conversation with a strange guy in AZ as if they somehow know of an unknowable place or time, over a network of copper wires and glass fibers proves that He has a sense of humor
Add predestination and it gets better. Or maybe worse. I dunno.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:27 pm

+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm
FredS wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:16 pm
The fact that a strange guy in PA can carry on a conversation with a strange guy in AZ as if they somehow know of an unknowable place or time, over a network of copper wires and glass fibers proves that He has a sense of humor
Add predestination and it gets better. Or maybe worse. I dunno.
Might it be a bit ironic for Protestants say that a place or time is "unknowable" whilst the knowledge of God or Jesus or the Spirit or whatever is ostensibly easy-peasy?




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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by FredS » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:00 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:27 pm
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm
FredS wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:16 pm
The fact that a strange guy in PA can carry on a conversation with a strange guy in AZ as if they somehow know of an unknowable place or time, over a network of copper wires and glass fibers proves that He has a sense of humor
Add predestination and it gets better. Or maybe worse. I dunno.
Might it be a bit ironic for Protestants say that a place or time is "unknowable" whilst the knowledge of God or Jesus or the Spirit or whatever is ostensibly easy-peasy?
I suppose. If you're painting Protestants with Del's Broad BrushTM that is.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:31 pm

+JMJ+
FredS wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:00 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:27 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm
FredS wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:16 pm
The fact that a strange guy in PA can carry on a conversation with a strange guy in AZ as if they somehow know of an unknowable place or time, over a network of copper wires and glass fibers proves that He has a sense of humor
Add predestination and it gets better. Or maybe worse. I dunno.
Might it be a bit ironic for Protestants say that a place or time is "unknowable" whilst the knowledge of God or Jesus or the Spirit or whatever is ostensibly easy-peasy?
I suppose. If you're painting Protestants with Del's Broad BrushTM that is.
True 'nuff, I s'pose (yet while abstaining from any judgement regarding Del), inasmuch as it seems to me that the only essential unity to be found Protestantism is in the rejection of Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism along with a concomitant implicit authority claim.

That may sound snarky, but it's not meant as such. It's only meant as a realistic appraisal of the sitch. A sitch which suggests to me that Goose's lucubrations — though while probably a minority position when considered according to the numbers — are, nonetheless, quintessentially Protestant in spirit.

Granted, you are, I believe, Anglican/Episcopal, right? If so, you may well try to typify that "third-way" twixt Protestantism and Cathlodoxy, and as such, the above considerations may not fully apply in your and other similar cases.




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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by Fainn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:41 pm

On the other hand, in Judaism, only 3 people were sentenced to hell for all eternity. The rest spent a maximum of one year. According to the Life and times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim, all souls in hell get a break from their torments on the Sabbath.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by Goose55 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:45 pm

Fainn wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:41 pm
On the other hand, in Judaism, only 3 people were sentenced to hell for all eternity. The rest spent a maximum of one year. According to the Life and times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim, all souls in hell get a break from their torments on the Sabbath.
Seems to be all kinds of misinformation out there.
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Re: Everlasting Souls Writhing In Eternal Flames?

Post by Del » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:18 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:54 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:14 am
Here's a thought for you Goose:

If there is some sort of annihilation/cessation of existence for those who don't get into heaven, then one of three things must occur:
1. Those who didn't get into heaven manage to pay for their sins in their temporary hell without the assistance of Jesus Christ (at which point, they would theoretically qualify for heaven purely through their own efforts, but they get annihilated anyway), or
2. Jesus pays for their sins after they spend some time in a temporary hell (at which point, they would theoretically qualify for heaven based on Jesus' sacrifice, but they get annihilated anyway), or
3. Sins are committed that are never paid for and God's perfect justice is compromised.
I don't see how any of these logically follow. How would suffering in Hell (for any duration) "pay for" sins? Why is "God's perfect justice" only retributive?
It only looks that way if we imagine that God delights in condemning souls to Hell as they are begging for mercy.

The Bible does not support this. The best expression is in Exekiel 33:11
11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
The best way to understand this is that there are proud human souls who, just like demons, refuse to serve God and accept His mercy. They would rather choose their own good, define their own "truth," make their own "happiness".... serving their own desires and seeking something other than God.

As a result, they burn with passion forever. They refuse to accept the peace that comes with obedience to God's design for us. Yeah, it feels like searing in a fire.... but that is what they want.

Don't dwell on the image of God as a vengeful tyrant. Ponder the incomprehensible foolishness of human pride!
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