A Serious Problem
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- Rooster
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Re: A Serious Problem
One factor that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the internet. As the cliche goes "The internet is where religion goes to die".
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Re: A Serious Problem
Who told you that if you make the BIG BIG mistake of rejecting Jesus you don't go to hell? We need to talk to whoever catechized you.TNLawPiper wrote:Who taught you someone can simply mistake their way into an eternity of separation from God?Rooster wrote:Yep. Your all-powerful god, full of infinite justice and love, watches with his celestial arms crossed, while his loving creation suffers for all eternity because they got it wrong on this temporal plain. Makes sense.Del wrote:It is a notably immature belief system which says that God "puts people" into Hell.Thunktank wrote:Funny or not, it was informative of how Del imagines things to be.
I imagine that belief in God/gods or anything else could be fun and inspirational. But once dogma comes along demanding belief, shutting off honest inquiry, turning everything into a black and white issues it becomes ugly. We talk about hell and how God actually puts people there to punish them for unbelief. It's not healthy. It's the imaginations of people not very well grounded or emotionally mature who come up with ideas like that. Good loving Christians don't generally like to talk about hell, I've noticed that. But they still like to talk about heaven a lot.
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Re: A Serious Problem
One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.Rooster wrote:Who told you that if you make the BIG BIG mistake of rejecting Jesus you don't go to hell? We need to talk to whoever catechized you.TNLawPiper wrote:Who taught you someone can simply mistake their way into an eternity of separation from God?Rooster wrote:Yep. Your all-powerful god, full of infinite justice and love, watches with his celestial arms crossed, while his loving creation suffers for all eternity because they got it wrong on this temporal plain. Makes sense.Del wrote:It is a notably immature belief system which says that God "puts people" into Hell.Thunktank wrote:Funny or not, it was informative of how Del imagines things to be.
I imagine that belief in God/gods or anything else could be fun and inspirational. But once dogma comes along demanding belief, shutting off honest inquiry, turning everything into a black and white issues it becomes ugly. We talk about hell and how God actually puts people there to punish them for unbelief. It's not healthy. It's the imaginations of people not very well grounded or emotionally mature who come up with ideas like that. Good loving Christians don't generally like to talk about hell, I've noticed that. But they still like to talk about heaven a lot.
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Re: A Serious Problem
This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.Rooster wrote:Who told you that if you make the BIG BIG mistake of rejecting Jesus you don't go to hell? We need to talk to whoever catechized you.TNLawPiper wrote:Who taught you someone can simply mistake their way into an eternity of separation from God?Rooster wrote:Yep. Your all-powerful god, full of infinite justice and love, watches with his celestial arms crossed, while his loving creation suffers for all eternity because they got it wrong on this temporal plain. Makes sense.Del wrote:It is a notably immature belief system which says that God "puts people" into Hell.Thunktank wrote:Funny or not, it was informative of how Del imagines things to be.
I imagine that belief in God/gods or anything else could be fun and inspirational. But once dogma comes along demanding belief, shutting off honest inquiry, turning everything into a black and white issues it becomes ugly. We talk about hell and how God actually puts people there to punish them for unbelief. It's not healthy. It's the imaginations of people not very well grounded or emotionally mature who come up with ideas like that. Good loving Christians don't generally like to talk about hell, I've noticed that. But they still like to talk about heaven a lot.
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Re: A Serious Problem
Where's Wosbald when you need him.
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Re: A Serious Problem
It's right there in the Catechism for your examination. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s1c1a8.htmRooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.Rooster wrote:Who told you that if you make the BIG BIG mistake of rejecting Jesus you don't go to hell? We need to talk to whoever catechized you.TNLawPiper wrote:Who taught you someone can simply mistake their way into an eternity of separation from God?Rooster wrote:Yep. Your all-powerful god, full of infinite justice and love, watches with his celestial arms crossed, while his loving creation suffers for all eternity because they got it wrong on this temporal plain. Makes sense.Del wrote:It is a notably immature belief system which says that God "puts people" into Hell.Thunktank wrote:Funny or not, it was informative of how Del imagines things to be.
I imagine that belief in God/gods or anything else could be fun and inspirational. But once dogma comes along demanding belief, shutting off honest inquiry, turning everything into a black and white issues it becomes ugly. We talk about hell and how God actually puts people there to punish them for unbelief. It's not healthy. It's the imaginations of people not very well grounded or emotionally mature who come up with ideas like that. Good loving Christians don't generally like to talk about hell, I've noticed that. But they still like to talk about heaven a lot.
- wosbald
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Re: A Serious Problem
+JMJ+
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima
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Re: A Serious Problem
Being told we're wrong is often interpreted as "we're being overbearing" rather than actually wrong. That's not to suggest that we're right either. We're not trying to convert you even when we're astonished at some of things you (collectively) say. Also some (you, TNLP, in particular) have progressive views that are closer to some of us on some issues. So it's not like it's a total divide. And it's also interesting because we have very different points of view on many things. 1/2 of us are not American either. So there are other contrasts too. So we do challenge but it's not intended to do battle over your faith. Please, keep your faith. The first time that someone questions the big bang and ten people drag out their favourite metric solutions to the field equations I'm not going to be happy. That's not hard to find. This is different.Onyx wrote:A lot of times I'm asking myself this question. But on this thread in particular, it would seem that (for once) those few unbelievers who regularly post on CPS might have a relevant perspective. The OP "serious problem" is not new, and it won't surprise you that I think there's a whole lot of echo-chamber stuff going on every time the issue is discussed. You could fill in a bingo card with every time someone says, "we need to do thing same thing we've been doing, only more so." Or, "people leave because they don't want to be humble or change for God's will..." Of the notorious four who have commented on this thread, we each have different answers, I'm sure. Three of us have come through a fairly substantial faith journey, and one of us has (I think) more of an observer perspective.TNLawPiper wrote:
Do you and your doubting compatriots enjoy being told you're wrong about matters of faith? Otherwise, why spend a great deal of time on a forum geared toward a lifestyle you don't share?
Anyway, there's not one answer regarding the OP "problem". Personally, I don't even think it's a problem. I literally think that Christians and the Christian church will be better off unburdened by cultural dominance and all the tangential politics that comes with rich and unwieldy institutions.
EDIT: and yes, I like being told I'm wrong.
Last edited by Rusty on Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Serious Problem
What do those words mean?TNLawPiper wrote:It's right there in the Catechism for your examination. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s1c1a8.htmRooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.Rooster wrote:Who told you that if you make the BIG BIG mistake of rejecting Jesus you don't go to hell? We need to talk to whoever catechized you.TNLawPiper wrote:Who taught you someone can simply mistake their way into an eternity of separation from God?Rooster wrote:Yep. Your all-powerful god, full of infinite justice and love, watches with his celestial arms crossed, while his loving creation suffers for all eternity because they got it wrong on this temporal plain. Makes sense.Del wrote:It is a notably immature belief system which says that God "puts people" into Hell.Thunktank wrote:Funny or not, it was informative of how Del imagines things to be.
I imagine that belief in God/gods or anything else could be fun and inspirational. But once dogma comes along demanding belief, shutting off honest inquiry, turning everything into a black and white issues it becomes ugly. We talk about hell and how God actually puts people there to punish them for unbelief. It's not healthy. It's the imaginations of people not very well grounded or emotionally mature who come up with ideas like that. Good loving Christians don't generally like to talk about hell, I've noticed that. But they still like to talk about heaven a lot.
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Re: A Serious Problem
Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
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Re: A Serious Problem
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
- wosbald
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Re: A Serious Problem
+JMJ+
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.Rooster wrote:Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
[…]
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima
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Re: A Serious Problem
Paradox at confinium.wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.Rooster wrote:Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
[…]
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein
"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip
"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS
"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip
"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS
- Rooster
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Re: A Serious Problem
How, then, given this indeterminacy/undecidability on such an apparently important doctrinal claim, can a priest be so urgent and dogmatic in his preachments? It would seem that any nuancing of the great possibility of eternal suffering in this way would necessarily undermine the redemptive necessity of Christ.wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.Rooster wrote:Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
[…]
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
- Del
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Re: A Serious Problem
"Full knowledge" and "complete assent," as requirements for a damning rejection of God -- that is how we "nuance" the "black & white" dogma of LOVE & OBEY, or PERISH.Rooster wrote:How, then, given this indeterminacy/undecidability on such an apparently important doctrinal claim, can a priest be so urgent and dogmatic in his preachments? It would seem that any nuancing of the great possibility of eternal suffering in this way would necessarily undermine the redemptive necessity of Christ.wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.Rooster wrote:Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
[…]
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
A noble Moslem or Hindu, seeking God as well as they can, do not fully know Christ enough of accept or reject Him. God can extend great mercy to these... they have done the best that they can with what they have been given..
But, as Jesus taught, much more will be expected of us who have received so much more of the truth. We will each be asked to give an account of our lives -- why we didn't follow the good, or why we refused to believe the truth. If our pride is such that we continue to reject the Love before us, then we will get the separation that we desire.
Now, if you demand absolute, black & white assurance of your salvation -- you will find the theology of John Calvin more agreeable to your mood.
Meanwhile Pascal can tell you something about your odds for eternal happiness if you would rather reject God altogether.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4
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Re: A Serious Problem
You have a fairly modernist view of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I think if you view the linked list below that you will see that you and the current Church are mostly out of step with the Church down through the ages. I don't want to hear about "development" in doctrine. Let's just call it what it is: A change in doctrine.Del wrote:"Full knowledge" and "complete assent," as requirements for a damning rejection of God -- that is how we "nuance" the "black & white" dogma of LOVE & OBEY, or PERISH.Rooster wrote:How, then, given this indeterminacy/undecidability on such an apparently important doctrinal claim, can a priest be so urgent and dogmatic in his preachments? It would seem that any nuancing of the great possibility of eternal suffering in this way would necessarily undermine the redemptive necessity of Christ.wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.Rooster wrote:Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
[…]
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
A noble Moslem or Hindu, seeking God as well as they can, do not fully know Christ enough of accept or reject Him. God can extend great mercy to these... they have done the best that they can with what they have been given..
But, as Jesus taught, much more will be expected of us who have received so much more of the truth. We will each be asked to give an account of our lives -- why we didn't follow the good, or why we refused to believe the truth. If our pride is such that we continue to reject the Love before us, then we will get the separation that we desire.
Now, if you demand absolute, black & white assurance of your salvation -- you will find the theology of John Calvin more agreeable to your mood.
Meanwhile Pascal can tell you something about your odds for eternal happiness if you would rather reject God altogether.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecc ... ulla_salus
- UncleBob
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Re: A Serious Problem
One time hugodrax helped me with Del by reminding me that he does not actually speak for the Catholic Church.Rooster wrote:You have a fairly modernist view of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I think if you view the linked list below that you will see that you and the current Church are mostly out of step with the Church down through the ages. I don't want to hear about "development" in doctrine. Let's just call it what it is: A change in doctrine.Del wrote:"Full knowledge" and "complete assent," as requirements for a damning rejection of God -- that is how we "nuance" the "black & white" dogma of LOVE & OBEY, or PERISH.Rooster wrote:How, then, given this indeterminacy/undecidability on such an apparently important doctrinal claim, can a priest be so urgent and dogmatic in his preachments? It would seem that any nuancing of the great possibility of eternal suffering in this way would necessarily undermine the redemptive necessity of Christ.wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.Rooster wrote:Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
[…]
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
A noble Moslem or Hindu, seeking God as well as they can, do not fully know Christ enough of accept or reject Him. God can extend great mercy to these... they have done the best that they can with what they have been given..
But, as Jesus taught, much more will be expected of us who have received so much more of the truth. We will each be asked to give an account of our lives -- why we didn't follow the good, or why we refused to believe the truth. If our pride is such that we continue to reject the Love before us, then we will get the separation that we desire.
Now, if you demand absolute, black & white assurance of your salvation -- you will find the theology of John Calvin more agreeable to your mood.
Meanwhile Pascal can tell you something about your odds for eternal happiness if you would rather reject God altogether.![]()
![]()
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecc ... ulla_salus
Just sayin'.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein
"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip
"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS
"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip
"You guys are weird." - Mrs. FredS
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Re: A Serious Problem
A small interuption:
I'm so glad to be an atheist. This thread is reminding me of that. The nastiness of theology. What a useless waste of time! The hours I would spend on such unhelpful topics.
There is very little about church that is attractive that can't be had or done elsewhere without the scum of theology and social distortion it causes over a make believe God who throws people who don't follow him into this theological zoo of his into a lake of fire.
I'm so glad to be an atheist. This thread is reminding me of that. The nastiness of theology. What a useless waste of time! The hours I would spend on such unhelpful topics.

There is very little about church that is attractive that can't be had or done elsewhere without the scum of theology and social distortion it causes over a make believe God who throws people who don't follow him into this theological zoo of his into a lake of fire.


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Re: A Serious Problem
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
You're out of the woods
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Step into the sun
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You're out of the night
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Re: A Serious Problem
Yeah, Del has fairly American, neo-Catholic/EWTN version of the faith that's heavily influenced by evangelicalism. His brand of Catholicism might not be recognized in many places outside the states.UncleBob wrote:One time hugodrax helped me with Del by reminding me that he does not actually speak for the Catholic Church.Rooster wrote:You have a fairly modernist view of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I think if you view the linked list below that you will see that you and the current Church are mostly out of step with the Church down through the ages. I don't want to hear about "development" in doctrine. Let's just call it what it is: A change in doctrine.Del wrote:"Full knowledge" and "complete assent," as requirements for a damning rejection of God -- that is how we "nuance" the "black & white" dogma of LOVE & OBEY, or PERISH.Rooster wrote:How, then, given this indeterminacy/undecidability on such an apparently important doctrinal claim, can a priest be so urgent and dogmatic in his preachments? It would seem that any nuancing of the great possibility of eternal suffering in this way would necessarily undermine the redemptive necessity of Christ.wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.Rooster wrote:Define those terms for me.wosbald wrote:Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.Rooster wrote:This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
[…]
When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
A noble Moslem or Hindu, seeking God as well as they can, do not fully know Christ enough of accept or reject Him. God can extend great mercy to these... they have done the best that they can with what they have been given..
But, as Jesus taught, much more will be expected of us who have received so much more of the truth. We will each be asked to give an account of our lives -- why we didn't follow the good, or why we refused to believe the truth. If our pride is such that we continue to reject the Love before us, then we will get the separation that we desire.
Now, if you demand absolute, black & white assurance of your salvation -- you will find the theology of John Calvin more agreeable to your mood.
Meanwhile Pascal can tell you something about your odds for eternal happiness if you would rather reject God altogether.![]()
![]()
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecc ... ulla_salus
Just sayin'.