A Serious Problem

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:49 pm

Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Rooster » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:50 pm

Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
I actually was worried about that after I posted it. Sometimes without being physically present things can get interpreted the wrong way.

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:54 pm

Rooster wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
I actually was worried about that after I posted it. Sometimes without being physically present things can get interpreted the wrong way.
But so what if you feel angry? Perhaps it's only fair that you might be angry about a few things sometimes. No shame in that. I doubt you are always angry or allow yourself to become consumed in hatred over it.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Rooster » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:56 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Rooster » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:59 pm

For some God Stuff levity. Enjoy! :dance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV4CsLgCwmU

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:02 pm

Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
I'm reading anger from both sides. Maybe a wrong perception, sure. Might as well air it out. I see anger from TNLP and rage from Del too (Del almost always seems enraged to me). I could be wrong and hope that I am.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Rusty » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:06 pm

Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
It's sometimes confusing for those of us that lack elaborate after-death social lives. They didn't do this with you, Thunk. It was cold shoulder or maybe ignore it and it'll fix itself. It was surprising. This sort of thing is closer to expectation ie it's Rooster's fault rather than any issue with the religion.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:17 pm

Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
It's sometimes confusing for those of us that lack elaborate after-death social lives. They didn't do this with you, Thunk. It was cold shoulder or maybe ignore it and it'll fix itself. It was surprising. This sort of thing is closer to expectation ie it's Rooster's fault rather than any issue with the religion.
Rooster was a Catholic in full communion. I was schismatic as an Orthodox to them, so there was hope that I might come around and eventually come into full communion is my guess. My fellow Orthodox were completely silent on the board as I expected they would be. It's a matter for my spiritual father to deal with. The Protestants, I don't know what they were thinking. They aren't saying much to Rooster either.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:50 pm

Thunktank wrote:A small interuption:

I'm so glad to be an atheist. This thread is reminding me of that. The nastiness of theology. What a useless waste of time! The hours I would spend on such unhelpful topics. :x

There is very little about church that is attractive that can't be had or done elsewhere without the scum of theology and social distortion it causes over a make believe God who throws people who don't follow him into this theological zoo of his into a lake of fire. :egor:
Who's being nasty about theology? Is studying the Universe a useless waste of time? If not, then how could the study of what others believe to be the truth be a waste of time?

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:56 pm

Rooster wrote:
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Rooster wrote:
wosbald wrote:
Rooster wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:One may only break his covenant with God with full knowledge and complete consent, right? Perhaps we need to talk to your catechist.
This sounds like some wishy-washy "spirit of the council" type language . What does "full" and "complete" mean?
Now, there may well be your problem. It seems like you can't handle undecidability in theological formulation.

I thought that you were all about seeing in "color" against that of "black & white".
Define those terms for me.

[…]

When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
It means that, when it comes to theological syntheses, one eventually reaches a point of indeterminacy/undecidability (color) where one can only hold two determinate truths (black & white) in dynamic tension. To choose one over the other would be to break the fulness of truth.
How, then, given this indeterminacy/undecidability on such an apparently important doctrinal claim, can a priest be so urgent and dogmatic in his preachments? It would seem that any nuancing of the great possibility of eternal suffering in this way would necessarily undermine the redemptive necessity of Christ.
An intellectually honest priest (yeah, I know you think that's an oxymoron) preaches what God has told us is sinful and what happens when one willfully engages in sinful behavior with an unrepentant heart. It's easy to be dogmatic about those things because they are laid bare in Scripture or easily derived therefrom. There is no need for one to attempt to understand what Christ meant by "what God has joined together, let no man tear asunder," by deeply exploring the writings of the early church fathers.

He would not be dogmatic in his judgment of his flock. That is for God alone--at once perfectly merciful and perfectly just--to decide.

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by wosbald » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:05 pm

+JMJ+
Rooster wrote:
wosbald wrote:
Rooster wrote:How, then, given this indeterminacy/undecidability on such an apparently important doctrinal claim, can a priest be so urgent and dogmatic in his preachments? It would seem that any nuancing of the great possibility of eternal suffering in this way would necessarily undermine the redemptive necessity of Christ.
"Full knowledge" and "complete assent," as requirements for a damning rejection of God -- that is how we "nuance" the "black & white" dogma of LOVE & OBEY, or PERISH.

A noble Moslem or Hindu, seeking God as well as they can, do not fully know Christ enough of accept or reject Him. God can extend great mercy to these... they have done the best that they can with what they have been given..

But, as Jesus taught, much more will be expected of us who have received so much more of the truth. We will each be asked to give an account of our lives -- why we didn't follow the good, or why we refused to believe the truth. If our pride is such that we continue to reject the Love before us, then we will get the separation that we desire.

Now, if you demand absolute, black & white assurance of your salvation -- you will find the theology of John Calvin more agreeable to your mood.

Meanwhile Pascal can tell you something about your odds for eternal happiness if you would rather reject God altogether.
You have a fairly modernist view of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. I think if you view the linked list below that you will see that you and the current Church are mostly out of step with the Church down through the ages. I don't want to hear about "development" in doctrine. Let's just call it what it is: A change in doctrine. :oops: :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecc ... ulla_salus
Don't confuse modern (or current) with Modernist. There's nothing Modernistic about Del's synthesis.

The two poles dictated by dogmatics could be briefly characterized as …

1) That all are morally obliged to enter the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam)

and

2) That none perish through unknowing, accidental circumstance (God's Universal Salvific WIll)


Now, these two poles can be orthodoxly synthesized in various ways. At one extreme, one can have those syntheses which strongly preference Extra Ecclesiam, yet while critically affirming an (at least implicit) necessary minimum of Universal Salvific WIll which critically modulates and undercuts any unipolar tyranny of the brightly spotlighted Extra Ecclesiam. These would represent the "old skool"-type syntheses, wholly orthodox, which you seem to be integralistically identifying with "real" Catholicity (though you seem to be have been hastily overlooking their "critical modulation").

Mutatis mutandis, the above applies to syntheses which strongly preference the Universal Salvific Will.

And of course, there may be syntheses which attempt to give a more "equal time" balance to each of the poles.

None of these syntheses are any "better" or "worse", in an absolute sense, than the others. Though each of them, in their turn, may be more pastorally suited to particular times and places and needs.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:11 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
I'm reading anger from both sides. Maybe a wrong perception, sure. Might as well air it out. I see anger from TNLP and rage from Del too (Del almost always seems enraged to me). I could be wrong and hope that I am.
I don't feel angry. There have been times when I have been frustrated by what I believed was misunderstanding, but I'm mostly just being a smart-ass. :lol:

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:29 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Thunktank wrote:A small interuption:

I'm so glad to be an atheist. This thread is reminding me of that. The nastiness of theology. What a useless waste of time! The hours I would spend on such unhelpful topics. :x

There is very little about church that is attractive that can't be had or done elsewhere without the scum of theology and social distortion it causes over a make believe God who throws people who don't follow him into this theological zoo of his into a lake of fire. :egor:
Who's being nasty about theology? Is studying the Universe a useless waste of time? If not, then how could the study of what others believe to be the truth be a waste of time?
Who is being nasty about theology? Good question. I'm beginning to believe that anyone who adheres to certain types of theology are nasty when they do. Especially when they use it to dominate and twist the thoughts and beliefs of others. Such theology is a waist of their time and everyone's they expose it to.

Oil and water, they don't mix. I rarely involve myself with Christian theological matters these days. I couldn't care less about most of it anymore. I do however carry a few scars from it that I'm hoping time will heal better. I entered this thread because the topic actually discusses folks like me. But now Del is attempting to correct us and lash out in judgment like he often does. I know better than to let him get under my skin. He doesn't deserve being there. The hardest part is that it's virtually impossible to even level with him. He just bull dozes right over everything people post! You can't keep up with him unless you want to give up your day job. :lol:
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:32 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
I'm reading anger from both sides. Maybe a wrong perception, sure. Might as well air it out. I see anger from TNLP and rage from Del too (Del almost always seems enraged to me). I could be wrong and hope that I am.
I don't feel angry. There have been times when I have been frustrated by what I believed was misunderstanding, but I'm mostly just being a smart-ass. :lol:
I can relate, believe me. I'm glad to know you aren't angry at Rooster. I think Rooster is sincere in his disbelief as am I. I really do like most of you most of the time.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Del » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:00 am

Thunktank wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
I'm reading anger from both sides. Maybe a wrong perception, sure. Might as well air it out. I see anger from TNLP and rage from Del too (Del almost always seems enraged to me). I could be wrong and hope that I am.
Enraged? Me? & TNLP?

We try to speak the truth in love. I'm not sure that I know what enraged feels like... (although Uncle Bob did irritate me a good bit for a while there.)

A major symptom of our time is the failure to recognize truth or love. If we try to tell people that their choices will end up hurting them (especially regarding sex, gender, and killing children), they frequently respond by accusing us of HATE.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:59 am

Thunktank wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
I'm reading anger from both sides. Maybe a wrong perception, sure. Might as well air it out. I see anger from TNLP and rage from Del too (Del almost always seems enraged to me). I could be wrong and hope that I am.
I don't feel angry. There have been times when I have been frustrated by what I believed was misunderstanding, but I'm mostly just being a smart-ass. :lol:
I can relate, believe me. I'm glad to know you aren't angry at Rooster. I think Rooster is sincere in his disbelief as am I. I really do like most of you most of the time.
We like most of you most of the time, too. :lol:

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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:56 am

Del wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rooster wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Rooster wrote:When it comes to eternity you better believe I want that stuff in BLACK and WHITE.
What does this mean? Eternity is irrelevant for us. We're dead. You have to return all that you are. Gone. Kaput. Sayonara.
I think they're engaging you because they detect an angry Christian faith.
To be fair, he is engaging them because they offended his choice to leave their faith. "God" seems to get angry about that and it's always the fault of those who doen't believe. It's never the fault of the faithful or their thoughts about God.
I'm not even angry. I was trying to drive home a point but I can see that this type of point is better-suited face-to-face when I can say things emphatically with accompanying facial expressions to convey the appropriate meaning.
I'm reading anger from both sides. Maybe a wrong perception, sure. Might as well air it out. I see anger from TNLP and rage from Del too (Del almost always seems enraged to me). I could be wrong and hope that I am.
Enraged? Me? & TNLP?

We try to speak the truth in love. I'm not sure that I know what enraged feels like... (although Uncle Bob did irritate me a good bit for a while there.)

A major symptom of our time is the failure to recognize truth or love. If we try to tell people that their choices will end up hurting them (especially regarding sex, gender, and killing children), they frequently respond by accusing us of HATE.
i said enraged, not hate. But you're incredibly funny sometimes even when your downright annoying. It's funny how you assume I said one thing when I really said something else. Regardless, it opens the door for you to continue the blandishments of your choice that you so dearly love to harp at us about. But before I say anything else that will lead to to feel more like a prophet from God, I had best just stop here and get some breakfast.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by FredS » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:52 am

It's important to note that we're mostly friends here. From the Christians perspective, we truly want what's best for our friends. I won't get extra points for bringing anyone back to the church, but I absolutely believe life on earth will generally better for them and certainly what comes next will be. So, from the Christians perspective, we're engaging in these discussions trying to change the hearts or minds of our friends because we think it's important for them. But I don't believe that our non-Christian or non-religious friends are engaging in order to change our hearts or minds. They're just explaining where they are and why they're there. As long as we cause no harm, I don't imagine they really care much about our religion. If it was a deal breaker they'd not hang around.

We need to understand that we're coming at this discussion with very different outcomes in mind.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by tuttle » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:10 am

I read/skimmed most of this thread and followed the rabbit trails, and as interesting/insightful as those were, I find sympathy with the folks leaving the church because of marketing.

Not that I am happy folks are leaving, but that I can see their point. The church (especially the evangelical church) is inundated and saturated with marketing. Jesus is a product to sell. And the most insidious part is that it's not just the hucksters doing it. It's become a cultural norm, some might even say an ingrained tradition. I've seen churches with stages that could be TV sets. Your pastor really isn't that great of a pastor if he hasn't written a book. Especially with the onset of social media, if your church isn't connecting to folks via Twitter/Facebook/Instagram then you might as well close your doors!

At least that's the vibe. Like I said, it's everywhere, and it's ugly. American Evangelicals have always been cultural copycats. It's sad, but no surprise that they mimic the market.

If there is a silver lining to folks leaving the church because of all the marketing, then perhaps that it's that they didn't stick around to be continually fed a gimmicky Jesus. At least they see through the shtick, no? Would that all of evangelicalism see though the shtick. Jesus said all that the Father has given to him will not be lost. I think He can take care of his flock better than the marketers.
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Re: A Serious Problem

Post by Thunktank » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:58 am

FredS wrote:It's important to note that we're mostly friends here. From the Christians perspective, we truly want what's best for our friends. I won't get extra points for bringing anyone back to the church, but I absolutely believe life on earth will generally better for them and certainly what comes next will be. So, from the Christians perspective, we're engaging in these discussions trying to change the hearts or minds of our friends because we think it's important for them. But I don't believe that our non-Christian or non-religious friends are engaging in order to change our hearts or minds. They're just explaining where they are and why they're there. As long as we cause no harm, I don't imagine they really care much about our religion. If it was a deal breaker they'd not hang around.

We need to understand that we're coming at this discussion with very different outcomes in mind.
Fred, I get this. I believe you and TNLP.

I don't believe Del anymore than I believe in "God."

But even if you were trying to win me over, I would still believe that you mean well and wouldn't care all that much. I expect Christians to want to win souls over. They truly do believe that life would be better for us.

I'm an Ex Christian. Truthfully, I miss aspects of my former faith. I have lost friends too. But I gained peace of mind. I realize that I often like many Saints more than Jesus. But even if it were true, I don't like some things about Jesus and churches. UB once asked me in a PM what it is that I don't like. I never answered because I like UB. He likes Jesus and seems to like me too. I'm not going to gripe about the specifics here as to why I don't like certain things written about Jesus, but it's my experience. I have tried Jesus for years. I prefer the imperfect Saints who readily admit that they are sinners yet try to be Saints. They try to be "perfect" even though none of us really know what "perfection" is.
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