Reformation at 500

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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:30 pm

Ok, I think we need to discuss this - Should Catholics celebrate or commemorate the Reformation ... for the 500th time?
This resulted in many religious wars, as a direct result, in the 16th & 17thC.

What is Pope Francis doing and how do Catholics feel about his commemoration of this?
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by hugodrax » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:51 pm

Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:"And the pope has already announced his intent to mark the occasion by worshiping not in Rome but in a Lutheran church in Sweden."

Sweden? Is Wittenberg Germany still somewhat hostile to Popes or is he attracted to irreligion? The Swedes are waaay past Lutheran.
The godless Swede had some very interesting words about religion in Sweden. Perhaps I live in the wrong country?
It's your latitude that is the problem. Go north and you will find shades of nature worship and all sorts of folklore creatures. It's in the Celtic nations too.
Yes. You could also try shutting your goddamn yap and stop your histrionic delusions of persecution for once in your damn life.
What do you mean? Are you saying that I'm not persecuting Del yet?
I, for one, feel persecuted (read: annoyed) by you and by Del on account of the fact that you are both two sides of the same incessantly yammering coin.
I could make an attempt at your style of opprobrium instead.
Please do.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:04 pm

I peed.

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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:11 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:I peed.
I peed too. If that's your idea of celebration or commemoration then you've got the wrong day. And this sure ain't the Absolutely useless facts thread.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:11 pm

Rusty wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:I peed.
If that's your idea of celebration or commemoration then you've got the wrong day. And this sure ain't the Absolutely useless facts thread.
Morley's being humourous, is all.

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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by A_Morley » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:31 pm

Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:"And the pope has already announced his intent to mark the occasion by worshiping not in Rome but in a Lutheran church in Sweden."

Sweden? Is Wittenberg Germany still somewhat hostile to Popes or is he attracted to irreligion? The Swedes are waaay past Lutheran.
The godless Swede had some very interesting words about religion in Sweden. Perhaps I live in the wrong country?
It's your latitude that is the problem. Go north and you will find shades of nature worship and all sorts of folklore creatures. It's in the Celtic nations too.
Yes. You could also try shutting your goddamn yap and stop your histrionic delusions of persecution for once in your damn life.
What do you mean? Are you saying that I'm not persecuting Del yet?
I, for one, feel persecuted (read: annoyed) by you and by Del on account of the fact that you are both two sides of the same incessantly yammering coin.
I could make an attempt at your style of opprobrium instead.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Thunktank » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:05 pm

A_Morley wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
A_Morley wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Rusty wrote:"And the pope has already announced his intent to mark the occasion by worshiping not in Rome but in a Lutheran church in Sweden."

Sweden? Is Wittenberg Germany still somewhat hostile to Popes or is he attracted to irreligion? The Swedes are waaay past Lutheran.
The godless Swede had some very interesting words about religion in Sweden. Perhaps I live in the wrong country?
It's your latitude that is the problem. Go north and you will find shades of nature worship and all sorts of folklore creatures. It's in the Celtic nations too.
Yes. You could also try shutting your goddamn yap and stop your histrionic delusions of persecution for once in your damn life.
What do you mean? Are you saying that I'm not persecuting Del yet?
I, for one, feel persecuted (read: annoyed) by you and by Del on account of the fact that you are both two sides of the same incessantly yammering coin.
I could make an attempt at your style of opprobrium instead.
Image
I hate cats! :x :x :x :x :x :x :evil:
Alright my lad, I can tolerate your preachy, self-loathing agnosticism to a point, but I will not countenance animal hatred (unless it's horses).

I don't have a stake in the cats vs dogs debate. I love cats and dogs equally as I love all animals. It's people I hate. And horses. Horses are not animals. Horses are small-brained demons.
So what are your thoughts on unicorns then?
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rooster » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:44 pm

Rusty wrote:Ok, I think we need to discuss this - Should Catholics celebrate or commemorate the Reformation ... for the 500th time?
This resulted in many religious wars, as a direct result, in the 16th & 17thC.

What is Pope Francis doing and how do Catholics feel about his commemoration of this?
At the end of the day, it depends on if you believe in stuff and what not. If you don't then, yeah, get together and hold hands. It's not worth fighting for.

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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:57 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:So the 500th anniversary of the Reformation will take place next year (October 2017) but much has already been said/written/etc leading up to it. I assume only more will be written and said now that it's only a year away. I figure we can use this thread for those kinds of discussion.

To begin, I came across this piece today, written from the point of view of a Reformed believer who writes often about Christian worship in that tradition. He's responding to a question but gives a rather lengthy and well thought out answer, providing a very nice plan for the following year as we approach the commemoration of the Reformation

Commemorating the Reformation for the 500th Time

Though he's writing to a reformed believer in a protestant magazine, I think this would be a good read for Catholics contemplating this event as well. I'd be interested to hear a Catholic take on it.
I have the same take that I've always had. Just as with regard to Jews, Moslems, Pagans, Mormons or whatever, I can go along to some degree in some sense. OTOH, in equal measure, I would also have to demur to some degree in some sense.

Catholicity is simply incommensurable with the ways of world. For every similarity, there is an even-greater dissimilarity.

So, my thoughts about this article are neither entirely polemical nor entirely irenical. But the word "Trent" does seems conspicuously absent.

Just sayin'.




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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by ReverendThom » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:31 am

I was sure that the 95 Theses were nailed to the door in 1516. This is why I had to take Christian History three times throughout my undergrad and seminary. To be fair, I can't even remember what year I was born half the time.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:20 pm

ReverendThom wrote:I was sure that the 95 Theses were nailed to the door in 1516. This is why I had to take Christian History three times throughout my undergrad and seminary. To be fair, I can't even remember what year I was born half the time.
That would be 1981 ... courtesy of Number Bearer #31.

So does all this mean that you will dress up as Luther on Halloween this year and post some theses (or feces) on the door of the nearest Catholic Church?

Do you have a relationship with the local catholic priests & other denominational padres that may also be struggling with some of the same parishioner issues as you?
Rooster wrote:At the end of the day, it depends on if you believe in stuff and what not. If you don't then, yeah, get together and hold hands. It's not worth fighting for.
I think the reformation is important to the development of disbelief too. We could talk about this too.

I suppose there is a number of possible ways that Catholics might respond. Why should they commemorate a schism in Christianity? And if they do make use of it then to what purpose? Is Christianity now a parlor ice-cream shop that offers many flavours? Well it is but does that matter? If all Catholics and Protestants do is return to doctrinal disagreements then it's largely irrelevant, given the growing irreligion.

I think it's fascinating that the Pope has selected the most irreligious country in the western world for an ecumenical visit to mark the reformation. I think it has to go beyond the Protestant reformation because that's largely an academic issue for most Swedes,since the majority is neither Lutheran nor Christian any more. So I'm very curious what he will say to them. And in fact the levels of irreligion throughout the west are growing so really his message whatever it is might be pertinent to all. This is not likely to be a discussion concerning Catholic vs. Protestant doctrine.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by A_Morley » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:52 pm

I'm just going to go on ignoring the Reformation in the same way I ignore Hovannes. I suppose that I'll still occasionally get mad at how stupid it is and yell at it, also like Hovannes.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by ReverendThom » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:22 pm

Rusty wrote:
ReverendThom wrote:I was sure that the 95 Theses were nailed to the door in 1516. This is why I had to take Christian History three times throughout my undergrad and seminary. To be fair, I can't even remember what year I was born half the time.
That would be 1981 ... courtesy of Number Bearer #31.
Right. Thanks!
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:27 am

wosbald wrote:But the word "Trent" does seems conspicuously absent.
I noted that as well.

Trent is a big one.

I'm curious about the comments the pope will have as we get closer. If I recall correctly, Benedict16, I believe (...I could be wrong) reached out to Lutherans seemingly conceding that Luther was right about justification by faith alone. (I'll have to check later, I think I made a thread about it at the time and I vaguely recalling it being explained away). But as it stands with Protestants, those who are not ready to burn the pope in effigy, those who are friendly, and those 'living on the Protestant/Catholic border' as the article says, tend to view Catholics almost like they view fellow Protestants of another denomination. The ball really is in the Catholic court and Trent has everything to do with it. The comments of B16 were encouraging to me at the time. The stance the new pope is taking towards the Waldensians and Lutherans is also encouraging. I'm curious how far it can go though.

Can what Trent declared about Protestant belief become nullified by a pope at some point? I'm not saying the pope is at that point. I'm more or less wondering if it is even possible. (I may have asked this at some point before but can't remember)
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:55 am

I thought this exchange from last summer was appropriate for this thread:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote: It is time for the faithful Evangelicals and the faithful remnant of Catholics to forget our petty disputes and join effort to save the world from itself.
This is rather desirous. Though I wonder how 'petty' the disputes really are. Worship and theology are hardly petty and I wonder to what degree those would keep each group from cooperating in certain ways. That said, to be sure, there is lots of pettiness that needs to fall by the wayside, but I do wonder if it would be possible, or if there would be a day where there is some kind of conservative coalition between the two. I look at some magazines like Touchstone and First Things and see that there is some precedent, and guys like Chesterton and Lewis are beloved by each side to the Nth degree. I happened to listen in to a Mass that was on Catholic Radio during Independence Day and I found myself in lock step agreement with what was preached. Obviously I would differ to a high degree on certain elements and interpretations of what's going on in the liturgy, but the fact that I found myself in more agreement with that priest than I could at the run of the mill evangelical circus down the road, brought this very thing (cooperation on a certain level) to mind. I would think that something like the latest court decision would only serve to draw these groups together.
The divide that separates American Catholics and Evangelicals remains the same.

Meanwhile, the divide separating Christians from the post-Christian world has grown immense and is accelerating. Our interfaith concerns are growing insignificant, by comparison. Our common problem is that there is an antagonist world out there... and it wants to take our children. Christian families should be more afraid of losing our children to the siren of sexual license, rather than worrying that the bebopping Pentecostals might be attractive to little Mary and John-Paul.

We need to work at saving our culture, so we can maintain a good place to raise Christian children. A culture is built on families, and associations of families. Christian families need to be a community.
As the 500th anniversary of the Reformation approaches, I'm growing more and more curious as to what the reaction from both sides will be. The fact that the Pope asked the Waldensians for forgiveness only spurs my curiosity. I'm under no illusion to assume that there will be a grand reconciliation in the near future regarding doctrinal agreement and a sort of meshing togetherness, but I do wonder how far things will go that the Roman Catholic Church and segments of evangelicalism can, in some official way, recognize/enable some form of partnership and brotherhood in spite of staunch differences. The Evangelicals and Catholics Together documents and more apt, the Joint Declaration on Justification with the Lutheran Church, are both I think, good stepping stones. They've opened a way, even though there are folks on both sides who don't see that anything has really changed.

Trent is the big issue I think. Even the Joint Declaration on Justification wiggled around it rather than repealing it (for obvious reasons of course). But it's still the biggest roadblock to reconciliation.

But even if we don't nail down half a millenia of theological disputes, there ought to at least be an informal cooperation, likely based on love and charity rather than whether we can cooperate with folks who hold the nth degree on justification by faith alone (again, not that it isn't important). Like I said, Touchstone and First Things magazines are intriguing in that they are achieving this to a degree, though I'd like to see something really big develop.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Jocose » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:09 am

It's my understanding that "Protestantism was hatched from the egg which Rome laid"

'All Protestants are Crypto-Papists' wrote the Russian theologian Alexis Khomiakov to an English friend in the year 1846.
'...To use the concise language of Algebra, all the West knows but one datum a; whether it be preceded by the positive sign + as with the Romanists, or with the negative-, as with the Protestants, the a remains the same. Now a passage to Orthodoxy seems indeed like an apostasy from the past, from its science, creed, and life. It is rushing into a new and unknown world. '

Khomiakov, when he spoke of the datum a, had in mind the fact that western Christians, whether Free Churchman, Anglicans, or Roman Catholics, have a common background in the past. All alike (although they may not always care to admit it) have been profoundly influenced by the same events: by the Papal centralization and the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, by the Renaissance, by the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.

But behind members of the Orthodox Church- Greeks, Russians, and the rest- there lies a very different background. They have known no Middle Ages (in the western sense) and have undergone no Reformations or Counter-Reformations; they have only been affected in an oblique way by the cultural and religious upheaval which transformed Western Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Christians in the west, both Roman and Reformed, generally start by asking the same questions, although they may disagree about the answers. In Orthodoxy, however, it is not merely the answers that are different- the questions themselves are not the same as in the west.
Orthodox see history in another perspective.

Consider for example the Orthodox attitude towards western religious disputes. In the west it is usual to think of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as opposite extremes, but to an Orthodox they appear as two sides of the same coin. Khomiakov calls the Pope 'the first Protestant', 'the father of German rationalism' and by the same token he would doubtless considered the Christian Scientist an eccentric Roman Catholic.

'How are we to arrest the pernicious effects of Protestantism?' he was asked by a High Church Anglican when visiting Oxford in 1847; to which he replied: 'Shake off your Roman Catholicism.'

In the eyes of the Russian theologian, the two things went hand in hand; both alike share the same assumptions, for Protestantism was hatched from the egg which Rome laid.

From the intro of "The Orthodox Church" new edition by author Timothy Ware.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:27 pm

Jocose wrote:It's my understanding that "Protestantism was hatched from the egg which Rome laid"

'All Protestants are Crypto-Papists' wrote the Russian theologian Alexis Khomiakov to an English friend in the year 1846.
'...To use the concise language of Algebra, all the West knows but one datum a; whether it be preceded by the positive sign + as with the Romanists, or with the negative-, as with the Protestants, the a remains the same. Now a passage to Orthodoxy seems indeed like an apostasy from the past, from its science, creed, and life. It is rushing into a new and unknown world. '

Khomiakov, when he spoke of the datum a, had in mind the fact that western Christians, whether Free Churchman, Anglicans, or Roman Catholics, have a common background in the past. All alike (although they may not always care to admit it) have been profoundly influenced by the same events: by the Papal centralization and the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, by the Renaissance, by the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.

But behind members of the Orthodox Church- Greeks, Russians, and the rest- there lies a very different background. They have known no Middle Ages (in the western sense) and have undergone no Reformations or Counter-Reformations; they have only been affected in an oblique way by the cultural and religious upheaval which transformed Western Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Christians in the west, both Roman and Reformed, generally start by asking the same questions, although they may disagree about the answers. In Orthodoxy, however, it is not merely the answers that are different- the questions themselves are not the same as in the west.
Orthodox see history in another perspective.

Consider for example the Orthodox attitude towards western religious disputes. In the west it is usual to think of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as opposite extremes, but to an Orthodox they appear as two sides of the same coin. Khomiakov calls the Pope 'the first Protestant', 'the father of German rationalism' and by the same token he would doubtless considered the Christian Scientist an eccentric Roman Catholic.

'How are we to arrest the pernicious effects of Protestantism?' he was asked by a High Church Anglican when visiting Oxford in 1847; to which he replied: 'Shake off your Roman Catholicism.'

In the eyes of the Russian theologian, the two things went hand in hand; both alike share the same assumptions, for Protestantism was hatched from the egg which Rome laid.

From the intro of "The Orthodox Church" new edition by author Timothy Ware.
I tend to get what the author is saying. It certainly isn't the first time I've heard this perspective from an Eastern Orthodox believer. But in all fairness, this pov is the same pov that the world more or less hates America for. It's the same kind of pov that causes an American Midwesterner to look at anyone with narrowed eyes and call them all Chinese.

I understand that there is a large cultural difference between East and West and that both have developed different Christian cultures, but to more or less look upon it and say, "well, it's basically the same thing from my point of view" really only indicates that they haven't looked at it all that close. It's true Protestantism was born out of Roman Catholicism, but to simply equate the two as being virtually the same thing only highlights what you don't know. There is a great many things (and people!) I admire within Eastern Orthodoxy and I have learned and benefited from people and teachings/books that come from that angle. But there is no denying that a note of smugness tends to creep in when there are comments made about Western Christianity.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:24 pm

tuttle wrote:I thought this exchange from last summer was appropriate for this thread:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote: It is time for the faithful Evangelicals and the faithful remnant of Catholics to forget our petty disputes and join effort to save the world from itself.
This is rather desirous. Though I wonder how 'petty' the disputes really are. Worship and theology are hardly petty and I wonder to what degree those would keep each group from cooperating in certain ways. That said, to be sure, there is lots of pettiness that needs to fall by the wayside, but I do wonder if it would be possible, or if there would be a day where there is some kind of conservative coalition between the two. I look at some magazines like Touchstone and First Things and see that there is some precedent, and guys like Chesterton and Lewis are beloved by each side to the Nth degree. I happened to listen in to a Mass that was on Catholic Radio during Independence Day and I found myself in lock step agreement with what was preached. Obviously I would differ to a high degree on certain elements and interpretations of what's going on in the liturgy, but the fact that I found myself in more agreement with that priest than I could at the run of the mill evangelical circus down the road, brought this very thing (cooperation on a certain level) to mind. I would think that something like the latest court decision would only serve to draw these groups together.
The divide that separates American Catholics and Evangelicals remains the same.

Meanwhile, the divide separating Christians from the post-Christian world has grown immense and is accelerating. Our interfaith concerns are growing insignificant, by comparison. Our common problem is that there is an antagonist world out there... and it wants to take our children. Christian families should be more afraid of losing our children to the siren of sexual license, rather than worrying that the bebopping Pentecostals might be attractive to little Mary and John-Paul.

We need to work at saving our culture, so we can maintain a good place to raise Christian children. A culture is built on families, and associations of families. Christian families need to be a community.
As the 500th anniversary of the Reformation approaches, I'm growing more and more curious as to what the reaction from both sides will be. The fact that the Pope asked the Waldensians for forgiveness only spurs my curiosity. I'm under no illusion to assume that there will be a grand reconciliation in the near future regarding doctrinal agreement and a sort of meshing togetherness, but I do wonder how far things will go that the Roman Catholic Church and segments of evangelicalism can, in some official way, recognize/enable some form of partnership and brotherhood in spite of staunch differences. The Evangelicals and Catholics Together documents and more apt, the Joint Declaration on Justification with the Lutheran Church, are both I think, good stepping stones. They've opened a way, even though there are folks on both sides who don't see that anything has really changed.

Trent is the big issue I think. Even the Joint Declaration on Justification wiggled around it rather than repealing it (for obvious reasons of course). But it's still the biggest roadblock to reconciliation.

But even if we don't nail down half a millenia of theological disputes, there ought to at least be an informal cooperation, likely based on love and charity rather than whether we can cooperate with folks who hold the nth degree on justification by faith alone (again, not that it isn't important). Like I said, Touchstone and First Things magazines are intriguing in that they are achieving this to a degree, though I'd like to see something really big develop.
Let's assume that the Catholics and the Lutherans solve their dispute and come to agreement, recognize each other, etc, whatever.
Assume partnership, brotherhood, intermarriage - whatever you desire. What would it mean? What would change as a result?

AFAIK there is not even one Lutheran on CPS. There are a lot of other Protestant splinter groups. What would an agreement between Lutherans and Catholics mean for other protestant denominations? And then for the larger world?

Remember, Del set the problem out:
Del wrote:It is time for the faithful Evangelicals and the faithful remnant of Catholics to forget our petty disputes and join effort to save the world from itself.
... and the motivation is quite personal and defensive:
Del wrote:Our common problem is that there is an antagonist world out there... and it wants to take our children. Christian families should be more afraid of losing our children to the siren of sexual license, rather than worrying that the bebopping Pentecostals might be attractive to little Mary and John-Paul.
He's saying Faith is not enough. That people of faith need to control everybody's pee-pees. LOL! (I love that part.) And the way that is done is in the bible. It's about authority and homogeneity with faith. The people that first came to America did so to escape religious persecution, to have religious freedom. I agree that it soon turned back to control and homogeneity with faith but written into the US Constitution is religious freedom and that implicitly includes freedom not to believe. What do you do?

Try and remember the Pew Research US Religious Landscape report from last year. This means that your political influence is on the wane. And you saw that when some Governors tried to introduce religious freedom acts.

If you're to gain control of all pee-pee's you're gonna need more than a treaty between Lutherans and Catholics.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:48 pm

Rusty wrote:
tuttle wrote:I thought this exchange from last summer was appropriate for this thread:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote: It is time for the faithful Evangelicals and the faithful remnant of Catholics to forget our petty disputes and join effort to save the world from itself.
This is rather desirous. Though I wonder how 'petty' the disputes really are. Worship and theology are hardly petty and I wonder to what degree those would keep each group from cooperating in certain ways. That said, to be sure, there is lots of pettiness that needs to fall by the wayside, but I do wonder if it would be possible, or if there would be a day where there is some kind of conservative coalition between the two. I look at some magazines like Touchstone and First Things and see that there is some precedent, and guys like Chesterton and Lewis are beloved by each side to the Nth degree. I happened to listen in to a Mass that was on Catholic Radio during Independence Day and I found myself in lock step agreement with what was preached. Obviously I would differ to a high degree on certain elements and interpretations of what's going on in the liturgy, but the fact that I found myself in more agreement with that priest than I could at the run of the mill evangelical circus down the road, brought this very thing (cooperation on a certain level) to mind. I would think that something like the latest court decision would only serve to draw these groups together.
The divide that separates American Catholics and Evangelicals remains the same.

Meanwhile, the divide separating Christians from the post-Christian world has grown immense and is accelerating. Our interfaith concerns are growing insignificant, by comparison. Our common problem is that there is an antagonist world out there... and it wants to take our children. Christian families should be more afraid of losing our children to the siren of sexual license, rather than worrying that the bebopping Pentecostals might be attractive to little Mary and John-Paul.

We need to work at saving our culture, so we can maintain a good place to raise Christian children. A culture is built on families, and associations of families. Christian families need to be a community.
As the 500th anniversary of the Reformation approaches, I'm growing more and more curious as to what the reaction from both sides will be. The fact that the Pope asked the Waldensians for forgiveness only spurs my curiosity. I'm under no illusion to assume that there will be a grand reconciliation in the near future regarding doctrinal agreement and a sort of meshing togetherness, but I do wonder how far things will go that the Roman Catholic Church and segments of evangelicalism can, in some official way, recognize/enable some form of partnership and brotherhood in spite of staunch differences. The Evangelicals and Catholics Together documents and more apt, the Joint Declaration on Justification with the Lutheran Church, are both I think, good stepping stones. They've opened a way, even though there are folks on both sides who don't see that anything has really changed.

Trent is the big issue I think. Even the Joint Declaration on Justification wiggled around it rather than repealing it (for obvious reasons of course). But it's still the biggest roadblock to reconciliation.

But even if we don't nail down half a millenia of theological disputes, there ought to at least be an informal cooperation, likely based on love and charity rather than whether we can cooperate with folks who hold the nth degree on justification by faith alone (again, not that it isn't important). Like I said, Touchstone and First Things magazines are intriguing in that they are achieving this to a degree, though I'd like to see something really big develop.
Let's assume that the Catholics and the Lutherans solve their dispute and come to agreement, recognize each other, etc, whatever.
Assume partnership, brotherhood, intermarriage - whatever you desire. What would it mean? What would change as a result?

AFAIK there is not even one Lutheran on CPS. There are a lot of other Protestant splinter groups. What would an agreement between Lutherans and Catholics mean for other protestant denominations? And then for the larger world?


Remember, Del set the problem out:
Del wrote:It is time for the faithful Evangelicals and the faithful remnant of Catholics to forget our petty disputes and join effort to save the world from itself.
... and the motivation is quite defensive:
Del wrote:Our common problem is that there is an antagonist world out there... and it wants to take our children. Christian families should be more afraid of losing our children to the siren of sexual license, rather than worrying that the bebopping Pentecostals might be attractive to little Mary and John-Paul.
He's saying Faith is not enough. That people of faith need to control everybody's pee-pees. LOL! And the way that is done is in the bible. It's about authority and homogeneity with faith. The people that first came to America did so to escape religious persecution, to have religious freedom. I agree that it soon turned back to control and homogeneity with faith but written into the US Constitution is religious freedom and that implicitly includes freedom not to believe.

Try and remember the Pew Research US Religious Landscape report from last year.

If you're to gain control of all pee-pee's you're gonna need more than a treaty between Lutherans and Catholics.
I'll let the pee-pee issue mellow.

I think the more relevant issue is what I highlighted above (I know you like highlights :mrgreen: )

You ask what it would mean/what would change as the result of a Catholic/Lutheran resolution. Well it depends upon what kind of 'agreement' they come to. They've already come to a certain number of agreements (ie; Joint Declaration on Justification) but they only go so far. Another way to look at 'agreement' is to view it informally. Which is what Del and I were discussing. An informal cooperation between the local Catholic and the local Protestant. Neighbors joining in prayer and community, standing upon the things they agree upon and for charity's sake setting aside for the time being the things that divide them.

I think, as wos has pointed out, the only real solid official way the rift will be healed is either a protestant full acceptance of Trent or a Catholic backtracking on Trent. That's the line in the sand as it currently stands. There are and have been loads of protestants (individuals) embracing Trent as they become Catholic and loads of Catholics (individuals) rejecting Trent as they become Protestant.

So if there were an official (as I put forward) change regarding Catholics and Lutherans, Trent will be at the center of it. If Lutherans embrace Trent, then, sure, it will make some huge waves within Protestantism, but I would think it wouldn't make nearly the impact that Rome would make if they were to redact Trent (if such a thing is even possible...I don't know).

But if Rome ever redacted it I think the change would be HUGE within Protestantism. It wouldn't be just the Lutherans that would be affected. I'm not sure exactly how it would play out, but I think I could say that Protestantism as we know it today would be forever altered.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:03 pm

tuttle wrote:
Rusty wrote:
tuttle wrote:I thought this exchange from last summer was appropriate for this thread:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote: It is time for the faithful Evangelicals and the faithful remnant of Catholics to forget our petty disputes and join effort to save the world from itself.
This is rather desirous. Though I wonder how 'petty' the disputes really are. Worship and theology are hardly petty and I wonder to what degree those would keep each group from cooperating in certain ways. That said, to be sure, there is lots of pettiness that needs to fall by the wayside, but I do wonder if it would be possible, or if there would be a day where there is some kind of conservative coalition between the two. I look at some magazines like Touchstone and First Things and see that there is some precedent, and guys like Chesterton and Lewis are beloved by each side to the Nth degree. I happened to listen in to a Mass that was on Catholic Radio during Independence Day and I found myself in lock step agreement with what was preached. Obviously I would differ to a high degree on certain elements and interpretations of what's going on in the liturgy, but the fact that I found myself in more agreement with that priest than I could at the run of the mill evangelical circus down the road, brought this very thing (cooperation on a certain level) to mind. I would think that something like the latest court decision would only serve to draw these groups together.
The divide that separates American Catholics and Evangelicals remains the same.

Meanwhile, the divide separating Christians from the post-Christian world has grown immense and is accelerating. Our interfaith concerns are growing insignificant, by comparison. Our common problem is that there is an antagonist world out there... and it wants to take our children. Christian families should be more afraid of losing our children to the siren of sexual license, rather than worrying that the bebopping Pentecostals might be attractive to little Mary and John-Paul.

We need to work at saving our culture, so we can maintain a good place to raise Christian children. A culture is built on families, and associations of families. Christian families need to be a community.
As the 500th anniversary of the Reformation approaches, I'm growing more and more curious as to what the reaction from both sides will be. The fact that the Pope asked the Waldensians for forgiveness only spurs my curiosity. I'm under no illusion to assume that there will be a grand reconciliation in the near future regarding doctrinal agreement and a sort of meshing togetherness, but I do wonder how far things will go that the Roman Catholic Church and segments of evangelicalism can, in some official way, recognize/enable some form of partnership and brotherhood in spite of staunch differences. The Evangelicals and Catholics Together documents and more apt, the Joint Declaration on Justification with the Lutheran Church, are both I think, good stepping stones. They've opened a way, even though there are folks on both sides who don't see that anything has really changed.

Trent is the big issue I think. Even the Joint Declaration on Justification wiggled around it rather than repealing it (for obvious reasons of course). But it's still the biggest roadblock to reconciliation.

But even if we don't nail down half a millenia of theological disputes, there ought to at least be an informal cooperation, likely based on love and charity rather than whether we can cooperate with folks who hold the nth degree on justification by faith alone (again, not that it isn't important). Like I said, Touchstone and First Things magazines are intriguing in that they are achieving this to a degree, though I'd like to see something really big develop.
Let's assume that the Catholics and the Lutherans solve their dispute and come to agreement, recognize each other, etc, whatever.
Assume partnership, brotherhood, intermarriage - whatever you desire. What would it mean? What would change as a result?

AFAIK there is not even one Lutheran on CPS. There are a lot of other Protestant splinter groups. What would an agreement between Lutherans and Catholics mean for other protestant denominations? And then for the larger world?


Remember, Del set the problem out:
Del wrote:It is time for the faithful Evangelicals and the faithful remnant of Catholics to forget our petty disputes and join effort to save the world from itself.
... and the motivation is quite defensive:
Del wrote:Our common problem is that there is an antagonist world out there... and it wants to take our children. Christian families should be more afraid of losing our children to the siren of sexual license, rather than worrying that the bebopping Pentecostals might be attractive to little Mary and John-Paul.
He's saying Faith is not enough. That people of faith need to control everybody's pee-pees. LOL! And the way that is done is in the bible. It's about authority and homogeneity with faith. The people that first came to America did so to escape religious persecution, to have religious freedom. I agree that it soon turned back to control and homogeneity with faith but written into the US Constitution is religious freedom and that implicitly includes freedom not to believe.

Try and remember the Pew Research US Religious Landscape report from last year.

If you're to gain control of all pee-pee's you're gonna need more than a treaty between Lutherans and Catholics.
I'll let the pee-pee issue mellow.

I think the more relevant issue is what I highlighted above (I know you like highlights :mrgreen: )

You ask what it would mean/what would change as the result of a Catholic/Lutheran resolution. Well it depends upon what kind of 'agreement' they come to. They've already come to a certain number of agreements (ie; Joint Declaration on Justification) but they only go so far. Another way to look at 'agreement' is to view it informally. Which is what Del and I were discussing. An informal cooperation between the local Catholic and the local Protestant. Neighbors joining in prayer and community, standing upon the things they agree upon and for charity's sake setting aside for the time being the things that divide them.

I think, as wos has pointed out, the only real solid official way the rift will be healed is either a protestant full acceptance of Trent or a Catholic backtracking on Trent. That's the line in the sand as it currently stands. There are and have been loads of protestants (individuals) embracing Trent as they become Catholic and loads of Catholics (individuals) rejecting Trent as they become Protestant.

So if there were an official (as I put forward) change regarding Catholics and Lutherans, Trent will be at the center of it. If Lutherans embrace Trent, then, sure, it will make some huge waves within Protestantism, but I would think it wouldn't make nearly the impact that Rome would make if they were to redact Trent (if such a thing is even possible...I don't know).

But if Rome ever redacted it I think the change would be HUGE within Protestantism. It wouldn't be just the Lutherans that would be affected. I'm not sure exactly how it would play out, but I think I could say that Protestantism as we know it today would be forever altered.
But Tuttle, you're stuck on the barriers to agreement between Lutherans and Catholics. Assume they get agreement ... what would it mean? Feel free to use your imagination.

There are other Protestant groups that are not Lutheran, for just one example The Church of England - one flavour of Anglican. They've moderated a bit but no Catholic can be in the line of succession to the throne. And the reason is because the sovereign is also the Governor of The Church of England. This is the 21st Century. So Lutheran's agreeing with Catholics will not change that at all. I suspect that there are doctrinal differences between all the various protestant splinters otherwise they'd all be Lutherans. So what changes? Rome is not necessarily in harmony with all the other protestant groups.

And in the larger problem of the decline in Christianity in the western nations - how could the Lutheran-Catholic rapprochement change anything on this score?
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