Typical services at my church

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by TNLawPiper » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:05 pm

Sir Moose wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:28 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm

It sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the preacher/minister wears three hats: he picks the verses, he reads the verses, and he explains the verses. Is that fair enough?
At our church at least, the pastor engages in expository preaching. He'll pick a book of the Bible and start preaching his way through it and let the text decide precisely how he breaks it up. He may spend several weeks on various aspects of a single verse or he may spend a single week covering a short paragraph of 2-3 verses. Depending on the book, it may take several years to work his way through a single book.

Often there are short breaks for short interspersing series (generally less than two months) that may be due to world events, the calendar (e.g. holidays), a tangent to the book he's preaching through, missions emphasis month, etc.

Otherwise, your assessment is fair enough.

As for the Old Testament, for normal Sunday morning preaching, they normally show up as part of the teaching on the New Testament books, but the pastor has been known to exposit an Old Testament book for his normal preaching series.
This reflects the experience I have had at nearly every evangelical church I've attended.

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by FredS » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:38 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:40 pm
infidel wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:31 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Yeah, there are definitely churches and individuals with differing levels of piety.

Skip et al, interesting posts. I'm getting some similarities along with some differences.

It sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the preacher/minister wears three hats: he picks the verses, he reads the verses, and he explains the verses. Is that fair enough?

It seems natural enough that that would take a little more time. But perhaps it's a little more comparable between our two styles if you add up the length of time it takes the lectors to read and the soloist to psing the psalm?

A couple of questions, if you'd indulge them. What about the Old Testament and the Psalms? Are they integrated with the New Testament or not or is it not fair to ask because differing churches/ministers will differ?

Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.

Nothing here is intended as anything more than innocent questions. I have zero interest in being converted or attempting to convert anyone. I think Skip noticed that we approach things fundamentally differently in our methods and it's a good idea to understand the mechanics. I think he's right.
In my limited experience "constant reenactment" is seen as roughly synonymous with "rote repetition" and there's a slippery, but fairly short, slope from there to "man made ritual" and "taking for granted", etc. And if there is one thing that Protestants are universally allergic to it's rituals that smell Catholic.
Fair enough, but it seems as if one can protest too much.
Indeed. I, for one, believe that most American Protestant churches have indeed protested too much. We threw the baby out with the bathwater. A trend I'm seeing is a return to more of our liturgical roots. Things like observing Lent and Advent, Ash Wednesday services (with actual ashes to the forehead), vestments colored for the seasons, crossing oneself when saying the trinity, reciting the Apostles Creed, etc. One of my friends who was raised Baptist told her parents that she was observing Lent and they said that was a "Catholic thing". Just because Catholics do something doesn't automatically make it bad. Or rote. Or a man-made tradition.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Skip » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:49 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:40 pm
infidel wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:31 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Yeah, there are definitely churches and individuals with differing levels of piety.

Skip et al, interesting posts. I'm getting some similarities along with some differences.

It sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the preacher/minister wears three hats: he picks the verses, he reads the verses, and he explains the verses. Is that fair enough?

It seems natural enough that that would take a little more time. But perhaps it's a little more comparable between our two styles if you add up the length of time it takes the lectors to read and the soloist to psing the psalm?

A couple of questions, if you'd indulge them. What about the Old Testament and the Psalms? Are they integrated with the New Testament or not or is it not fair to ask because differing churches/ministers will differ?

Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.

Nothing here is intended as anything more than innocent questions. I have zero interest in being converted or attempting to convert anyone. I think Skip noticed that we approach things fundamentally differently in our methods and it's a good idea to understand the mechanics. I think he's right.
In my limited experience "constant reenactment" is seen as roughly synonymous with "rote repetition" and there's a slippery, but fairly short, slope from there to "man made ritual" and "taking for granted", etc. And if there is one thing that Protestants are universally allergic to it's rituals that smell Catholic.
Fair enough, but it seems as if one can protest too much.
Indeed. I, for one, believe that most American Protestant churches have indeed protested too much. We threw the baby out with the bathwater. A trend I'm seeing is a return to more of our liturgical roots. Things like observing Lent and Advent, Ash Wednesday services (with actual ashes to the forehead), vestments colored for the seasons, crossing oneself when saying the trinity, reciting the Apostles Creed, etc. One of my friends who was raised Baptist told her parents that she was observing Lent and they said that was a "Catholic thing". Just because Catholics do something doesn't automatically make it bad. Or rote. Or a man-made tradition.
Hear, hear.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Joshoowah » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:51 pm

Skip wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:49 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:40 pm
infidel wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:31 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Yeah, there are definitely churches and individuals with differing levels of piety.

Skip et al, interesting posts. I'm getting some similarities along with some differences.

It sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the preacher/minister wears three hats: he picks the verses, he reads the verses, and he explains the verses. Is that fair enough?

It seems natural enough that that would take a little more time. But perhaps it's a little more comparable between our two styles if you add up the length of time it takes the lectors to read and the soloist to psing the psalm?

A couple of questions, if you'd indulge them. What about the Old Testament and the Psalms? Are they integrated with the New Testament or not or is it not fair to ask because differing churches/ministers will differ?

Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.

Nothing here is intended as anything more than innocent questions. I have zero interest in being converted or attempting to convert anyone. I think Skip noticed that we approach things fundamentally differently in our methods and it's a good idea to understand the mechanics. I think he's right.
In my limited experience "constant reenactment" is seen as roughly synonymous with "rote repetition" and there's a slippery, but fairly short, slope from there to "man made ritual" and "taking for granted", etc. And if there is one thing that Protestants are universally allergic to it's rituals that smell Catholic.
Fair enough, but it seems as if one can protest too much.
Indeed. I, for one, believe that most American Protestant churches have indeed protested too much. We threw the baby out with the bathwater. A trend I'm seeing is a return to more of our liturgical roots. Things like observing Lent and Advent, Ash Wednesday services (with actual ashes to the forehead), vestments colored for the seasons, crossing oneself when saying the trinity, reciting the Apostles Creed, etc. One of my friends who was raised Baptist told her parents that she was observing Lent and they said that was a "Catholic thing". Just because Catholics do something doesn't automatically make it bad. Or rote. Or a man-made tradition.
Hear, hear.
Music to my ears.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Fainn » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:57 am

In Baptist churches in the mountains, communion was only done on 5th Sundays. The evening service of those 5th Sundays were special services that only included the opening prayer, music, and a closing prayer.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Cleon » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:35 am

I love ritual. Love it.

Announcements before the service formally begins.
Time of preparation/everyone get themselves and their families seated while some piano music plays.

Call to Worship
(Song/Psalm of response)
Confession of Sin & Proclamation of Forgiveness
(Song/Psalm of response)
Confession of Faith
(Song/Psalm of response)
Offering/Prayer of the Church
Consecration by the Word - Sermon
(Song/Psalm of response)
Communion - grape wine and bread
(Song/Psalm of response)
Commission - Benediction
(Short response song - Three-fold or Seven Fold Amen, Blessed Be, Gloria Patri, etc.)

Usually wraps up in 1.25 to 1.5 hrs.

The service includes responses in song. At least a few will be Psalms. I would say the high point of the service is Communion, which we have every time we meet. Again, I love ritual. It doesn't bother me in the least. Empty ritual does though.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:46 am

That last line gave me a chuckle.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Jocose » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:04 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:46 am
That last line gave me a chuckle.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by FredS » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:07 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:46 am
That last line gave me a chuckle.
Cleon wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:35 am
. . . I love ritual. It doesn't bother me in the least. Empty ritual does though.
One man's empty ritual is another man's most meaningful act.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Del » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:31 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:07 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:46 am
That last line gave me a chuckle.
Cleon wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:35 am
. . . I love ritual. It doesn't bother me in the least. Empty ritual does though.
One man's empty ritual is another man's most meaningful act.
I have never encountered an empty biblical ritual.

But I have seen an awful lot of people perform rituals with empty hearts. This is the great scandal of many suburban American Catholic parishes.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:42 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:07 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:46 am
That last line gave me a chuckle.
Cleon wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:35 am
. . . I love ritual. It doesn't bother me in the least. Empty ritual does though.
One man's empty ritual is another man's most meaningful act.
That's why I laughed. But it is at least a sign of unity that nobody likes empty ritual.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Cleon » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:45 am

Jocose wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:04 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:46 am
That last line gave me a chuckle.
I ritually wear cargo shorts.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by infidel » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:07 am

Del wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:31 am
I have never encountered an empty biblical ritual.

But I have seen an awful lot of people perform rituals with empty hearts. This is the great scandal of many suburban American Catholic parishes.
It wouldn't matter a whit if every single congregant at the local Suburban American Catholic Parish was fully devoted and committed and participating and deemed Scandal FreeTM by the resident Del. To the protestants outside there's still a whiff of paganism about the whole thing.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by gaining_age » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:25 am

infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:07 am
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:31 am
I have never encountered an empty biblical ritual.

But I have seen an awful lot of people perform rituals with empty hearts. This is the great scandal of many suburban American Catholic parishes.
It wouldn't matter a whit if every single congregant at the local Suburban American Catholic Parish was fully devoted and committed and participating and deemed Scandal FreeTM by the resident Del. To the protestants outside there's still a whiff of paganism about the whole thing.
How many snakes are involved?
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am

Well, I've been treading lightly and will continue to do so, but am curious why I must respect what the Protestant does, and govern myself accordingly, where there doesn't seem to be the least issue with a Protestant calling me a pagan. Why are your rituals sacred and mine profane? On a fundamental level, Infidel, do you consider me a Christian? Am I reading too much into your last post?
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by infidel » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:41 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am
Well, I've been treading lightly and will continue to do so, but am curious why I must respect what the Protestant does, and govern myself accordingly, where there doesn't seem to be the least issue with a Protestant calling me a pagan. Why are your rituals sacred and mine profane? On a fundamental level, Infidel, do you consider me a Christian? Am I reading too much into your last post?
You are reading too much into my post. I am drawing broad generalizations from my observations. Of course you are Christian. I do not consider myself a Protestant but those are the people I am surrounded by. I would never call you pagan, but I have heard other Protestants who do. That is all.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by gaining_age » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:46 am

infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:41 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am
Well, I've been treading lightly and will continue to do so, but am curious why I must respect what the Protestant does, and govern myself accordingly, where there doesn't seem to be the least issue with a Protestant calling me a pagan. Why are your rituals sacred and mine profane? On a fundamental level, Infidel, do you consider me a Christian? Am I reading too much into your last post?
You are reading too much into my post. I am drawing broad generalizations from my observations. Of course you are Christian. I do not consider myself a Protestant but those are the people I am surrounded by. I would never call you pagan, but I have heard other Protestants who do. That is all.
I found it an over the top post as well which is why I threw in a comment about snake handling.

You can always find some group unhappy with your worship style. Contra-wise, there could be something going on if you are handling snakes-- even as it is Biblical, it is not practical no prescribed as part of worship.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by infidel » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:51 am

gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:46 am
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:41 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am
Well, I've been treading lightly and will continue to do so, but am curious why I must respect what the Protestant does, and govern myself accordingly, where there doesn't seem to be the least issue with a Protestant calling me a pagan. Why are your rituals sacred and mine profane? On a fundamental level, Infidel, do you consider me a Christian? Am I reading too much into your last post?
You are reading too much into my post. I am drawing broad generalizations from my observations. Of course you are Christian. I do not consider myself a Protestant but those are the people I am surrounded by. I would never call you pagan, but I have heard other Protestants who do. That is all.
I found it an over the top post as well which is why I threw in a comment about snake handling.

You can always find some group unhappy with your worship style. Contra-wise, there could be something going on if you are handling snakes-- even as it is Biblical, it is not practical no prescribed as part of worship.
Fair enough. I admit to painting with very broad brushes.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:59 am

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am
Why are your rituals sacred and mine profane?
If our rituals weren't profane, what would be Protestantism's raison d'être?




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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:24 am

infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:51 am
gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:46 am
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:41 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am
Well, I've been treading lightly and will continue to do so, but am curious why I must respect what the Protestant does, and govern myself accordingly, where there doesn't seem to be the least issue with a Protestant calling me a pagan. Why are your rituals sacred and mine profane? On a fundamental level, Infidel, do you consider me a Christian? Am I reading too much into your last post?
You are reading too much into my post. I am drawing broad generalizations from my observations. Of course you are Christian. I do not consider myself a Protestant but those are the people I am surrounded by. I would never call you pagan, but I have heard other Protestants who do. That is all.
I found it an over the top post as well which is why I threw in a comment about snake handling.

You can always find some group unhappy with your worship style. Contra-wise, there could be something going on if you are handling snakes-- even as it is Biblical, it is not practical no prescribed as part of worship.
Fair enough. I admit to painting with very broad brushes.
No worries. I've used a paint roller a time or two and have misread a situation on more than one occasion. I was certainly not asking for anything but clarification. If you believed I wasnt, it wouldn't have brought on a bad reaction. Zero interest in creating warfare here. Thanks for answering.

There will always be zealotry. Like the poor, the zealots will always be with us.

I've really found the similarities and differences in styles interesting.

Can I still ask questions? Seems like many of you describe very similar worship services, at least in format. Would you mind a roll call by denomination? That is to say, I'm curious about what you call yourselves and it seems Protestant might actually be overbroad.

How do mainline Protestants, that is, Methodists, Episcopals, Presbyterians, etc differ from evangelical services. I guess I'm most curious what marks out the evangelical.
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