Typical services at my church

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jruegg
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by jruegg » Tue May 02, 2017 9:14 am

Jocose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:52 pm
Sir Moose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:18 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.
For what it's worth, this protestant is with you. Every service with the supper will always be a service where the gospel is preached. I broached this topic in a series in a blog I sometimes write. The lack of emphasis on communion is, to me, maybe the biggest failure of evangelical worship and I would even go as far as to think that a lack of understanding/practice/etc has lead to sick and dying churches.

You can read what I wrote about it here: Renew the Table (and this one that I haven't added to the list yet). I only offer it up because it might go some way to show how the lack of emphasis/understanding/practice developed, at least within the tradition I've found myself involved in. It's written with them in mind with the goal of a renewal within that tradition, but it might be helpful in some way in clarifying some things.
Thank you Tuttle for those blog links. Like you, I've grown up in a Memorialist tradition with grape juice taking on the role of 'fruit of the vine.' In recent years, I have become aware of the significance of the switch from wine to grape juice and have longed for a return to the way Jesus instituted things. I had never looked deeply at Memorialism other than to contrast it with transubstantiation and consubstantiation. I'd never heard of 'option 3' before. I've read through your blog several times (even copied and pasted it all into a single document for easier reading) and I'm sure I'll read through it many more times as I chew on these issues.

They say that God takes us where He finds us, but doesn't leave us there. I keep getting reminded of that. Thank you.

Oh, and while I'm on the keyboard already, 'fruit of the vine' is actually an idiomatic phrase that Jews of the day understood to mean 'wine used for sacramental purposes.' In other words, a Jew in the early church would not have accepted grape juice as fruit of the vine.
Image
By that logic, this is Jesus:

Image
"I am the vine, you are the branches."

Or maybe this:
Image
"I am the living water"

Or perhaps this:
Image
"I am the bread of life."
Image

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Cleon » Tue May 02, 2017 9:33 am

Anyone ever drop the collection plate when it is being passed?
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by ChildOfGod » Tue May 02, 2017 10:22 am

Skip wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:30 am
If any of you guys... mess with MY thread... I'll cut ya'.
Trying to stay on topic and avoid all laceration...

For about 5 years my family has been attending a newer non-denom with a very simple service:

2 opening songs
Greetings
3 more Worship songs
Biblical Message
Closing

Each of those above elements may be preceded with prayer (particularly the message).

I have recently been led back to our former PCA church. They reached out to me in reconciliation when they got a new pastor and a lot of healing has occurred - I and the previous pastor even did our best at reconciling as part of the overall process. I mention that 'cause it really is something to be celebrated in Christ. It's a miracle.

That PCA congregation, where I am a member, is older than the USA. The service is more complex and sometimes I feel like I'm shuffling papers and hymnals a bit much but I really appreciate all of its elements:

Opening Announcements
Responsive Call to Worship (usually from the Psalms)
Greetings
The Doxology (corporately sung)
Prayer of Adoration (concluded with corporate recitation of the Lord's Prayer)
Hymn of Praise
Confession of Faith (Apostles or Nicene Creeds or portion of the Heidelberg or Westminster Confessions)
Confession of Sin and Weakness (corporate prayer read from bulletin/program)
Private time of Confession
Assurance of Pardon (pastoral prayer listed in bulletin/program)
Offertory
Pastoral Prayer
Hymn of Preparation
Scripture Reading
Sermon
Hymn of Benediction
Benediction

It's involved but each of its components has meaning and its structure is Biblically derived (though you'd have to search Puritan/Reformed literature for that proof).

The fam still goes to the simpler service every week and joins me at the PCA church on the second Sunday for the Lord's Supper which is held every month on that Sunday.

Hoping that was all in line.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by gaining_age » Tue May 02, 2017 11:05 am

ChildOfGod wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 10:22 am
Skip wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:30 am
If any of you guys... mess with MY thread... I'll cut ya'.
Trying to stay on topic and avoid all laceration...

For about 5 years my family has been attending a newer non-denom with a very simple service:

2 opening songs
Greetings
3 more Worship songs
Biblical Message
Closing

Each of those above elements may be preceded with prayer (particularly the message).

I have recently been led back to our former PCA church. They reached out to me in reconciliation when they got a new pastor and a lot of healing has occurred - I and the previous pastor even did our best at reconciling as part of the overall process. I mention that 'cause it really is something to be celebrated in Christ. It's a miracle.

That PCA congregation, where I am a member, is older than the USA. The service is more complex and sometimes I feel like I'm shuffling papers and hymnals a bit much but I really appreciate all of its elements:

Opening Announcements
Responsive Call to Worship (usually from the Psalms)
Greetings
The Doxology (corporately sung)
Prayer of Adoration (concluded with corporate recitation of the Lord's Prayer)
Hymn of Praise
Confession of Faith (Apostles or Nicene Creeds or portion of the Heidelberg or Westminster Confessions)
Confession of Sin and Weakness (corporate prayer read from bulletin/program)
Private time of Confession
Assurance of Pardon (pastoral prayer listed in bulletin/program)
Offertory
Pastoral Prayer
Hymn of Preparation
Scripture Reading
Sermon
Hymn of Benediction
Benediction

It's involved but each of its components has meaning and its structure is Biblically derived (though you'd have to search Puritan/Reformed literature for that proof).

The fam still goes to the simpler service every week and joins me at the PCA church on the second Sunday for the Lord's Supper which is held every month on that Sunday.

Hoping that was all in line.

This seems somewhat similar to the Lutheran format.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Jocose » Tue May 02, 2017 11:19 am

jruegg wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 9:14 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:52 pm
Sir Moose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:18 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.
For what it's worth, this protestant is with you. Every service with the supper will always be a service where the gospel is preached. I broached this topic in a series in a blog I sometimes write. The lack of emphasis on communion is, to me, maybe the biggest failure of evangelical worship and I would even go as far as to think that a lack of understanding/practice/etc has lead to sick and dying churches.

You can read what I wrote about it here: Renew the Table (and this one that I haven't added to the list yet). I only offer it up because it might go some way to show how the lack of emphasis/understanding/practice developed, at least within the tradition I've found myself involved in. It's written with them in mind with the goal of a renewal within that tradition, but it might be helpful in some way in clarifying some things.
Thank you Tuttle for those blog links. Like you, I've grown up in a Memorialist tradition with grape juice taking on the role of 'fruit of the vine.' In recent years, I have become aware of the significance of the switch from wine to grape juice and have longed for a return to the way Jesus instituted things. I had never looked deeply at Memorialism other than to contrast it with transubstantiation and consubstantiation. I'd never heard of 'option 3' before. I've read through your blog several times (even copied and pasted it all into a single document for easier reading) and I'm sure I'll read through it many more times as I chew on these issues.

They say that God takes us where He finds us, but doesn't leave us there. I keep getting reminded of that. Thank you.

Oh, and while I'm on the keyboard already, 'fruit of the vine' is actually an idiomatic phrase that Jews of the day understood to mean 'wine used for sacramental purposes.' In other words, a Jew in the early church would not have accepted grape juice as fruit of the vine.
Image
By that logic, this is Jesus:

Image
"I am the vine, you are the branches."

Or maybe this:
Image
"I am the living water"

Or perhaps this:
Image
"I am the bread of life."
Image
"And for Freds sake, DO NOT point anyone towards CPS or you'll put them off of both Christianity and pipe smoking forever." ~ FredS

Image

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Thunktank » Tue May 02, 2017 11:21 am

You folks will argue about everything!
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by infidel » Tue May 02, 2017 11:38 am

Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:21 am
You folks will argue about everything!
Wrong. :chili:
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by hugodrax » Tue May 02, 2017 11:38 am

Jocose wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:19 am
jruegg wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 9:14 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:52 pm
Sir Moose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:18 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.
For what it's worth, this protestant is with you. Every service with the supper will always be a service where the gospel is preached. I broached this topic in a series in a blog I sometimes write. The lack of emphasis on communion is, to me, maybe the biggest failure of evangelical worship and I would even go as far as to think that a lack of understanding/practice/etc has lead to sick and dying churches.

You can read what I wrote about it here: Renew the Table (and this one that I haven't added to the list yet). I only offer it up because it might go some way to show how the lack of emphasis/understanding/practice developed, at least within the tradition I've found myself involved in. It's written with them in mind with the goal of a renewal within that tradition, but it might be helpful in some way in clarifying some things.
Thank you Tuttle for those blog links. Like you, I've grown up in a Memorialist tradition with grape juice taking on the role of 'fruit of the vine.' In recent years, I have become aware of the significance of the switch from wine to grape juice and have longed for a return to the way Jesus instituted things. I had never looked deeply at Memorialism other than to contrast it with transubstantiation and consubstantiation. I'd never heard of 'option 3' before. I've read through your blog several times (even copied and pasted it all into a single document for easier reading) and I'm sure I'll read through it many more times as I chew on these issues.

They say that God takes us where He finds us, but doesn't leave us there. I keep getting reminded of that. Thank you.

Oh, and while I'm on the keyboard already, 'fruit of the vine' is actually an idiomatic phrase that Jews of the day understood to mean 'wine used for sacramental purposes.' In other words, a Jew in the early church would not have accepted grape juice as fruit of the vine.
Image
By that logic, this is Jesus:

Image
"I am the vine, you are the branches."

Or maybe this:
Image
"I am the living water"

Or perhaps this:
Image
"I am the bread of life."
Image
Cool. I've been wondering what you mean by not arguing on every thread, Wu. Now I know!
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Cleon » Tue May 02, 2017 12:08 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:21 am
You folks will argue about everything!
Ginger or Mary Ann?
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"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Thunktank » Tue May 02, 2017 12:37 pm

Well, it's just too bad Jesus didn't think of this before he ascended into heaven. You would have thought he would have known the human condition to argue about everything. You would have thought he might have left some instructions on how to discern his will and settle such basic arguments about something as important as the meaning and purpose of a sacrament.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Jocose » Tue May 02, 2017 12:44 pm

hugodrax wrote:Cool. I've been wondering what you mean by not arguing on every thread, Wu. Now I know!
Now you're getting it!

Oh, and....

Image

:lol:
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by gaining_age » Tue May 02, 2017 12:49 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:37 pm
Well, it's just too bad Jesus didn't think of this before he ascended into heaven. You would have thought he would have known the human condition to argue about everything. You would have thought he might have left some instructions on how to discern his will and settle such basic arguments about something as important as the meaning and purpose of a sacrament.
It was his concern and he did pray heavily over this:

John 17:
20 I pray not only for these,
but also for those who believe in Me
through their message.
21 May they all be one,
as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You.
May they also be one in Us,
so the world may believe You sent Me.
22 I have given them the glory You have given Me.
May they be one as We are one.
23 I am in them and You are in Me.
May they be made completely one,
so the world may know You have sent Me
and have loved them as You have loved Me.
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The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Thunktank » Tue May 02, 2017 1:09 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:49 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:37 pm
Well, it's just too bad Jesus didn't think of this before he ascended into heaven. You would have thought he would have known the human condition to argue about everything. You would have thought he might have left some instructions on how to discern his will and settle such basic arguments about something as important as the meaning and purpose of a sacrament.
It was his concern and he did pray heavily over this:

John 17:
20 I pray not only for these,
but also for those who believe in Me
through their message.
21 May they all be one,
as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You.
May they also be one in Us,
so the world may believe You sent Me.
22 I have given them the glory You have given Me.
May they be one as We are one.
23 I am in them and You are in Me.
May they be made completely one,
so the world may know You have sent Me
and have loved them as You have loved Me.
I'm just going to stop while I'm only one step behind. Besides, I'm not supposed to care.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by hugodrax » Tue May 02, 2017 1:13 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 1:09 pm
gaining_age wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:49 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:37 pm
Well, it's just too bad Jesus didn't think of this before he ascended into heaven. You would have thought he would have known the human condition to argue about everything. You would have thought he might have left some instructions on how to discern his will and settle such basic arguments about something as important as the meaning and purpose of a sacrament.
It was his concern and he did pray heavily over this:

John 17:
20 I pray not only for these,
but also for those who believe in Me
through their message.
21 May they all be one,
as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You.
May they also be one in Us,
so the world may believe You sent Me.
22 I have given them the glory You have given Me.
May they be one as We are one.
23 I am in them and You are in Me.
May they be made completely one,
so the world may know You have sent Me
and have loved them as You have loved Me.
I'm just going to stop while I'm only one step behind. Besides, I'm not supposed to care.
Nah, don't stop. There are still people willing to argue with you and you are still on a quest. Don't stop.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by infidel » Tue May 02, 2017 1:40 pm

Listening to the "Fighting for the Faith" podcast from Pirate Christian Radio has given me some new data points. I'm starting to realize that the wacky televangelist style sermons are far more common than I had previously assumed. Beware the Evangelical Industrial Complex 8O
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Thunktank » Tue May 02, 2017 2:30 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 1:13 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 1:09 pm
gaining_age wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:49 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:37 pm
Well, it's just too bad Jesus didn't think of this before he ascended into heaven. You would have thought he would have known the human condition to argue about everything. You would have thought he might have left some instructions on how to discern his will and settle such basic arguments about something as important as the meaning and purpose of a sacrament.
It was his concern and he did pray heavily over this:

John 17:
20 I pray not only for these,
but also for those who believe in Me
through their message.
21 May they all be one,
as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You.
May they also be one in Us,
so the world may believe You sent Me.
22 I have given them the glory You have given Me.
May they be one as We are one.
23 I am in them and You are in Me.
May they be made completely one,
so the world may know You have sent Me
and have loved them as You have loved Me.
I'm just going to stop while I'm only one step behind. Besides, I'm not supposed to care.
Nah, don't stop. There are still people willing to argue with you and you are still on a quest. Don't stop.
I will always quest, it's inherent to my being. I love to discover and learn new things. I often times feel as though Christianity fences my spirit in, shuts it down and demands a loss of inquiry. It claims a "finished" revelation for all people to adhere to. How uninspiring! :lol:

Seriously though, if I were to return to church I would go Catholic. It just almost seems coherent enough to be The Body assuming that such a Body exists at all. The door remains open if Jesus wants to come in. Sometimes I get the feeling he does, but then I wonder if I'm just making stuff up in my own head. Jesus makes no sense sometimes and neither does church of any kind. I went to Mass on Easter for no apparent reason other than desire. I love it, I hate but I can't get enough of it. Then I'll turn around and find inner peace in the simple natural revelation and personal orthopraxy I have been inspired to live as an unbeliever of the Uncreated/Supernatural by simply loving the natural. It's too bad Jesus can't share. He seems quite good for some people sometimes but not all people all the time. It irks me that Christians often act as though they have a monopoly on good reason and good life. I think they miss important stuff when they do. I think I learned more about life in the last two years than the ten previously as an ardent practicing and genuine believer. It was as if Christian faith put blinders on me. I didn't like it sometimes and Jesus often felt overbearing and even unfair. I honostly feel more peace when I don't care about matters of faith or whether right belief and right practice are adhered to. It seems more of hinderance to happiness and genuine life than anything. Jesus is just too serious and somber and bossy. I don't enjoy his company really. I tend to prefer the company of imperfect Christians who simply try to be better. In the case of Jesus, he is the perfect who is the enemy of so much good. The narrow way, without leeway. So maybe I would make a better Protestant? :wink:

I generally prefer being an unbeliever and taking refuge in physical evidence and personal hard won intuition, experience and reason. I really try to be a better person, love better, do better and deal with the dirty aspects of life in reality. Things often are just the way they are, it wasn't "meant" to be this way and that is one of the best things I think I figured out. I don't have all the answers, but I'm doing OK. If I'm mistaken, Lord have mercy on me a sinner!
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Onyx » Tue May 02, 2017 3:07 pm

Cleon wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 9:33 am
Anyone ever drop the collection plate when it is being passed?
Image

No, but once as a hungry kid, I chased the communion plate. My mother reached for me, but her first lunge was too slow. Before she knew it, she was committed to the chase and literally climbed over the pews before giving up. My father was the minister.
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Del » Tue May 02, 2017 7:38 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:38 am
Jocose wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:19 am
jruegg wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 9:14 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:52 pm
Sir Moose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:18 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.
For what it's worth, this protestant is with you. Every service with the supper will always be a service where the gospel is preached. I broached this topic in a series in a blog I sometimes write. The lack of emphasis on communion is, to me, maybe the biggest failure of evangelical worship and I would even go as far as to think that a lack of understanding/practice/etc has lead to sick and dying churches.

You can read what I wrote about it here: Renew the Table (and this one that I haven't added to the list yet). I only offer it up because it might go some way to show how the lack of emphasis/understanding/practice developed, at least within the tradition I've found myself involved in. It's written with them in mind with the goal of a renewal within that tradition, but it might be helpful in some way in clarifying some things.
Thank you Tuttle for those blog links. Like you, I've grown up in a Memorialist tradition with grape juice taking on the role of 'fruit of the vine.' In recent years, I have become aware of the significance of the switch from wine to grape juice and have longed for a return to the way Jesus instituted things. I had never looked deeply at Memorialism other than to contrast it with transubstantiation and consubstantiation. I'd never heard of 'option 3' before. I've read through your blog several times (even copied and pasted it all into a single document for easier reading) and I'm sure I'll read through it many more times as I chew on these issues.

They say that God takes us where He finds us, but doesn't leave us there. I keep getting reminded of that. Thank you.

Oh, and while I'm on the keyboard already, 'fruit of the vine' is actually an idiomatic phrase that Jews of the day understood to mean 'wine used for sacramental purposes.' In other words, a Jew in the early church would not have accepted grape juice as fruit of the vine.
Image
By that logic, this is Jesus:

Image
"I am the vine, you are the branches."

Or maybe this:
Image
"I am the living water"

Or perhaps this:
Image
"I am the bread of life."
Image
Cool. I've been wondering what you mean by not arguing on every thread, Wu. Now I know!
Jesus didn't mean any of that stuff He said. He was such a big kidder!
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Del
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by Del » Tue May 02, 2017 7:43 pm

Cleon wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 12:08 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:21 am
You folks will argue about everything!
Ginger or Mary Ann?
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"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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FredS
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Re: Typical services at my church

Post by FredS » Tue May 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Del wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 7:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:38 am
Jocose wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 11:19 am
jruegg wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 9:14 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:52 pm
Sir Moose wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:18 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Believe it or not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT STARTING TROUBLE, the part I have the most difficulty understanding is the lack of emphasis on communion/Communion. It seems to me that whether you believe the host to be Body and Blood or representations thereof, that the focus on Jesus' life, freely suffered brutal death, and miraculous resurrection demand a constant reenactment because it puts His Passion first and foremost in your mind.
For what it's worth, this protestant is with you. Every service with the supper will always be a service where the gospel is preached. I broached this topic in a series in a blog I sometimes write. The lack of emphasis on communion is, to me, maybe the biggest failure of evangelical worship and I would even go as far as to think that a lack of understanding/practice/etc has lead to sick and dying churches.

You can read what I wrote about it here: Renew the Table (and this one that I haven't added to the list yet). I only offer it up because it might go some way to show how the lack of emphasis/understanding/practice developed, at least within the tradition I've found myself involved in. It's written with them in mind with the goal of a renewal within that tradition, but it might be helpful in some way in clarifying some things.
Thank you Tuttle for those blog links. Like you, I've grown up in a Memorialist tradition with grape juice taking on the role of 'fruit of the vine.' In recent years, I have become aware of the significance of the switch from wine to grape juice and have longed for a return to the way Jesus instituted things. I had never looked deeply at Memorialism other than to contrast it with transubstantiation and consubstantiation. I'd never heard of 'option 3' before. I've read through your blog several times (even copied and pasted it all into a single document for easier reading) and I'm sure I'll read through it many more times as I chew on these issues.

They say that God takes us where He finds us, but doesn't leave us there. I keep getting reminded of that. Thank you.

Oh, and while I'm on the keyboard already, 'fruit of the vine' is actually an idiomatic phrase that Jews of the day understood to mean 'wine used for sacramental purposes.' In other words, a Jew in the early church would not have accepted grape juice as fruit of the vine.
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By that logic, this is Jesus:

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"I am the vine, you are the branches."

Or maybe this:
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"I am the living water"

Or perhaps this:
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"I am the bread of life."
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Cool. I've been wondering what you mean by not arguing on every thread, Wu. Now I know!
Jesus didn't mean any of that stuff He said. He was such a big kidder!
He didn't say "Since I'm still with you, I'm chopping of my fingers and a couple toes for you guys to eat." No, he handed them bread. Not flesh.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

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