The Five Solas

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Jester
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:43 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:47 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I read through most of the Sola threads before posting this thread. I found this argument to be the most used. In fact this argument is the foundation of the other arguments against sola Scriptura. Not only do I find this an extremely weak argument (that was addressed by Luther himself), but I also find the basis of the argument to be void by the substance of the accusation. Reformers believe Scripture alone and the accusation attacks individuals apart from Scripture? Gods Word is insufficient because John Doe is illiterate?

I understand that the Word of God in the hands of any man can and will cause individual interpretation. I find this to be the same argument for taking citizens weapons. Some will be untrained, irresponsible and some may even use them to harm others or themselves. Therefore confiscate all weapons. The fact that someone can interpret Scripture to mean anything they want it to does not negate the fact that Scripture has one interpretation and it itself is sufficient for all knowledge of saving faith.

This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
The Apostolic answer to the bolded questions above:

The Reformers were wrong because Scripture was never intended by God to be the only reliable source for our instruction. The New Testament Scriptures were written by the Apostles for Christians who had already been instructed in the basics of Christian faith by the Apostles. Sola Scriptura is a man-made doctrine opposed even to Scripture, and we all know the man who invented it.
The Bible wrote:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

(c) 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

translation and notes according to the NIV
As to the "illiteracy" of John Doe: It is also the great biblical scholars from the Reformation to the present day who cannot find enough evidence in Scripture to agree on the most basic Christian beliefs, including whether or not any of the 5 Solas are valid.

Some basic questions that confound the children of the Reformation:
- What happens in Baptism?
- Should children be baptized?
- What happens in the Lord's Supper/Eucharist? How often should we celebrate it?
- What happens when a Christian dies?

The Apostles were not confused about these things, and were quick to correct those who were mistaken (e.g., 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians).

Yet the practical experience from the experimental dogma of Sola Scriptura has been that we should be confused, and no one can correct us.

This is why the Reformation failed in its first generation.
Would you say Scripture is a reliable source for our instruction on its own?

I have never been to anything Catholic in my life and I agree these are basic questions. Basic questions you can find in Scripture alone. Now if your argument is you also need some information outside of Scripture for saving faith then it is on Catholicism to prove it and not the Scripture only crowd. Catholicism must prove to every other denomination that Scripture is insufficient, not teachable, rebuking, correcting and not sufficiently training in righteousness so that the man of God can be equipped for every good work.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:29 pm

I know it's probably a moot point, but a lot of these Sola Scriptura vs Orthodox/Catholic arguments tend to look a lot like two traditions butting up against each other. Each side appeals to authority.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:40 pm

Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:43 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:47 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I read through most of the Sola threads before posting this thread. I found this argument to be the most used. In fact this argument is the foundation of the other arguments against sola Scriptura. Not only do I find this an extremely weak argument (that was addressed by Luther himself), but I also find the basis of the argument to be void by the substance of the accusation. Reformers believe Scripture alone and the accusation attacks individuals apart from Scripture? Gods Word is insufficient because John Doe is illiterate?

I understand that the Word of God in the hands of any man can and will cause individual interpretation. I find this to be the same argument for taking citizens weapons. Some will be untrained, irresponsible and some may even use them to harm others or themselves. Therefore confiscate all weapons. The fact that someone can interpret Scripture to mean anything they want it to does not negate the fact that Scripture has one interpretation and it itself is sufficient for all knowledge of saving faith.

This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
The Apostolic answer to the bolded questions above:

The Reformers were wrong because Scripture was never intended by God to be the only reliable source for our instruction. The New Testament Scriptures were written by the Apostles for Christians who had already been instructed in the basics of Christian faith by the Apostles. Sola Scriptura is a man-made doctrine opposed even to Scripture, and we all know the man who invented it.
The Bible wrote:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

(c) 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

translation and notes according to the NIV
As to the "illiteracy" of John Doe: It is also the great biblical scholars from the Reformation to the present day who cannot find enough evidence in Scripture to agree on the most basic Christian beliefs, including whether or not any of the 5 Solas are valid.

Some basic questions that confound the children of the Reformation:
- What happens in Baptism?
- Should children be baptized?
- What happens in the Lord's Supper/Eucharist? How often should we celebrate it?
- What happens when a Christian dies?

The Apostles were not confused about these things, and were quick to correct those who were mistaken (e.g., 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians).

Yet the practical experience from the experimental dogma of Sola Scriptura has been that we should be confused, and no one can correct us.

This is why the Reformation failed in its first generation.
Would you say Scripture is a reliable source for our instruction on its own?

I have never been to anything Catholic in my life and I agree these are basic questions. Basic questions you can find in Scripture alone. Now if your argument is you also need some information outside of Scripture for saving faith then it is on Catholicism to prove it and not the Scripture only crowd. Catholicism must prove to every other denomination that Scripture is insufficient, not teachable, rebuking, correcting and not sufficiently training in righteousness so that the man of God can be equipped for every good work.
Beyond all that, Del, sola scriptura is not the idea that Scripture is the only reliable source for our instruction. It's the primary source for our instruction.

EDIT: and considering we're literally celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, as reformed Christians, I'd say your claim that the Reformation failed in its first generation is a little shaky.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Skip » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:12 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:29 pm
I know it's probably a moot point, but a lot of these Sola Scriptura vs Orthodox/Catholic arguments tend to look a lot like two traditions butting up against each other. Each side appeals to authority.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by coco » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:09 pm

In before the lock.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:08 pm

+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
… This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
This, to me, somewhat encapsulates the subject under consideration. The essence of Sola Scriptura is the assertion that "The" Church (or a church) should —in principle — "be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture". But whether or not "The" Church (or any church) ever does so must forever remain an unknowable "X". Protestant faith is essentially a content-free faith, in the context of which Sola Scriptura functions as a limit-concept.




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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Del » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:12 pm

Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:43 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:47 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I read through most of the Sola threads before posting this thread. I found this argument to be the most used. In fact this argument is the foundation of the other arguments against sola Scriptura. Not only do I find this an extremely weak argument (that was addressed by Luther himself), but I also find the basis of the argument to be void by the substance of the accusation. Reformers believe Scripture alone and the accusation attacks individuals apart from Scripture? Gods Word is insufficient because John Doe is illiterate?

I understand that the Word of God in the hands of any man can and will cause individual interpretation. I find this to be the same argument for taking citizens weapons. Some will be untrained, irresponsible and some may even use them to harm others or themselves. Therefore confiscate all weapons. The fact that someone can interpret Scripture to mean anything they want it to does not negate the fact that Scripture has one interpretation and it itself is sufficient for all knowledge of saving faith.

This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
The Apostolic answer to the bolded questions above:

The Reformers were wrong because Scripture was never intended by God to be the only reliable source for our instruction. The New Testament Scriptures were written by the Apostles for Christians who had already been instructed in the basics of Christian faith by the Apostles. Sola Scriptura is a man-made doctrine opposed even to Scripture, and we all know the man who invented it.
The Bible wrote:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

(c) 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

translation and notes according to the NIV
As to the "illiteracy" of John Doe: It is also the great biblical scholars from the Reformation to the present day who cannot find enough evidence in Scripture to agree on the most basic Christian beliefs, including whether or not any of the 5 Solas are valid.

Some basic questions that confound the children of the Reformation:
- What happens in Baptism?
- Should children be baptized?
- What happens in the Lord's Supper/Eucharist? How often should we celebrate it?
- What happens when a Christian dies?

The Apostles were not confused about these things, and were quick to correct those who were mistaken (e.g., 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians).

Yet the practical experience from the experimental dogma of Sola Scriptura has been that we should be confused, and no one can correct us.

This is why the Reformation failed in its first generation.
Would you say Scripture is a reliable source for our instruction on its own?

I have never been to anything Catholic in my life and I agree these are basic questions. Basic questions you can find in Scripture alone. Now if your argument is you also need some information outside of Scripture for saving faith then it is on Catholicism to prove it and not the Scripture only crowd. Catholicism must prove to every other denomination that Scripture is insufficient, not teachable, rebuking, correcting and not sufficiently training in righteousness so that the man of God can be equipped for every good work.
The notion that one could know everything by Scripture Alone was a new idea, invented 1500 years after Christianity was established. And that idea has failed in its burden of proof -- Those who hold Sola Scriptura are unable to agree on anything.

Meanwhile, the Apostolic Faith has proven its integrity. The faith has not changed since the time of the Apostles.... the Apostolic Christians of the East and the West still hold the same Apostolic Faith, even after 1000 years of not playing nice together.

There are also plenty of evidence in Scripture that Scripture alone is not sufficient.
- The Scripture experts at the time of Jesus were the scribes and Pharisees. They taught from Scripture alone. But the crowds were astounded by the teaching of Jesus -- because He taught with Authority.
- The disciples on the road to Emmaus were familiar with all so the Scriptures, but they did not understand until the risen Christ (hidden from their senses) explained the Scriptures to them.
- The Ethiopian eunuch was reading the Scriptures, but he could not comprehend them alone. He needed Philip to reveal the truth to him. And even then, Philip said that he must be baptized in order to be saved. Even true knowledge of Scripture is not sufficient.

The Emmaus story is especially revealing.
- The disciples did not recognize Jesus in the flesh. Jesus did not want them to find Jesus that way.
- The disciples did not recognize Jesus in the Scripture alone... even as Jesus revealed Himself in the Scriptures! This is not how Jesus wants us to see Him.
- The disciples eyes were opened, and the recognized Jesus in the breaking of the Bread. This is how Jesus wants us to know Him!

I wonder if these disciples heard Jesus give the Bread of Life discourse (John 6). Were they among the few who stayed, hoping someday to receive understanding? This was the answer to their prayer and faith!
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Del » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:13 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:09 pm
In before the lock.
Says the guy holding the lock...
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:38 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:13 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:09 pm
In before the lock.
Says the guy holding the lock...
I've got a sock, Coco. Put the lock in the sock.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by sweetandsour » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:30 pm

Catholics have come a long way I think, since the coming to fruition of the Reformation in the 1500s. But they've still got a little way to go.

Im in before the lock, right?
As thus we sat in darkness
Each one busy with his prayers,
"We are lost!" the captain shouted,
As he staggered down the stairs.

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:47 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:12 pm
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:43 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:47 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I read through most of the Sola threads before posting this thread. I found this argument to be the most used. In fact this argument is the foundation of the other arguments against sola Scriptura. Not only do I find this an extremely weak argument (that was addressed by Luther himself), but I also find the basis of the argument to be void by the substance of the accusation. Reformers believe Scripture alone and the accusation attacks individuals apart from Scripture? Gods Word is insufficient because John Doe is illiterate?

I understand that the Word of God in the hands of any man can and will cause individual interpretation. I find this to be the same argument for taking citizens weapons. Some will be untrained, irresponsible and some may even use them to harm others or themselves. Therefore confiscate all weapons. The fact that someone can interpret Scripture to mean anything they want it to does not negate the fact that Scripture has one interpretation and it itself is sufficient for all knowledge of saving faith.

This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
The Apostolic answer to the bolded questions above:

The Reformers were wrong because Scripture was never intended by God to be the only reliable source for our instruction. The New Testament Scriptures were written by the Apostles for Christians who had already been instructed in the basics of Christian faith by the Apostles. Sola Scriptura is a man-made doctrine opposed even to Scripture, and we all know the man who invented it.
The Bible wrote:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

(c) 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

translation and notes according to the NIV
As to the "illiteracy" of John Doe: It is also the great biblical scholars from the Reformation to the present day who cannot find enough evidence in Scripture to agree on the most basic Christian beliefs, including whether or not any of the 5 Solas are valid.

Some basic questions that confound the children of the Reformation:
- What happens in Baptism?
- Should children be baptized?
- What happens in the Lord's Supper/Eucharist? How often should we celebrate it?
- What happens when a Christian dies?

The Apostles were not confused about these things, and were quick to correct those who were mistaken (e.g., 1 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians).

Yet the practical experience from the experimental dogma of Sola Scriptura has been that we should be confused, and no one can correct us.

This is why the Reformation failed in its first generation.
Would you say Scripture is a reliable source for our instruction on its own?

I have never been to anything Catholic in my life and I agree these are basic questions. Basic questions you can find in Scripture alone. Now if your argument is you also need some information outside of Scripture for saving faith then it is on Catholicism to prove it and not the Scripture only crowd. Catholicism must prove to every other denomination that Scripture is insufficient, not teachable, rebuking, correcting and not sufficiently training in righteousness so that the man of God can be equipped for every good work.
The notion that one could know everything by Scripture Alone was a new idea, invented 1500 years after Christianity was established. And that idea has failed in its burden of proof -- Those who hold Sola Scriptura are unable to agree on anything.

Meanwhile, the Apostolic Faith has proven its integrity. The faith has not changed since the time of the Apostles.... the Apostolic Christians of the East and the West still hold the same Apostolic Faith, even after 1000 years of not playing nice together.
That fails on a few counts. First of all, the Apostolic Faith has changed...unless you're saying I can still pop down to the local Catholic church and buy some indulgences (as an example). Secondly, if fails to acknowledge that there have been various local Catholic churches who have been at odds with Rome throughout the years. Usually the Catholics just dismiss them as not really Catholics anymore or they swap out the priest to try to get them back on track. Third, it disregards the fact that there are Protestant creeds and confessions that have remained intact for hundreds of years.
There are also plenty of evidence in Scripture that Scripture alone is not sufficient.
- The Scripture experts at the time of Jesus were the scribes and Pharisees. They taught from Scripture alone. But the crowds were astounded by the teaching of Jesus -- because He taught with Authority.
- The disciples on the road to Emmaus were familiar with all so the Scriptures, but they did not understand until the risen Christ (hidden from their senses) explained the Scriptures to them.
- The Ethiopian eunuch was reading the Scriptures, but he could not comprehend them alone. He needed Philip to reveal the truth to him. And even then, Philip said that he must be baptized in order to be saved. Even true knowledge of Scripture is not sufficient.

The Emmaus story is especially revealing.
- The disciples did not recognize Jesus in the flesh. Jesus did not want them to find Jesus that way.
- The disciples did not recognize Jesus in the Scripture alone... even as Jesus revealed Himself in the Scriptures! This is not how Jesus wants us to see Him.
- The disciples eyes were opened, and the recognized Jesus in the breaking of the Bread. This is how Jesus wants us to know Him!
First of all, Philip did not tell the Ethiopian that he needed to be baptized to be saved. The Ethiopian asked if he could be baptized, and Philip said that if he believed, then he could.
Secondly, every example you gave of people not being able to understand the Bible was from before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding.
Third, by your own admission, everything that the disciples needed to know about Jesus was available in the Old Testament--they just needed God-given understanding (which, as I stated above, we now get from the Holy Spirit).
I wonder if these disciples heard Jesus give the Bread of Life discourse (John 6). Were they among the few who stayed, hoping someday to receive understanding? This was the answer to their prayer and faith!
You also ignore the fact that when Paul taught to the Berean church, they went to the Scripture to verify the truth of what he taught, not vice versa.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by jruegg » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:52 pm

Quadrilateral.













That is all.
Image

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jocose » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:50 am

Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I read through most of the Sola threads before posting this thread. I found this argument to be the most used. In fact this argument is the foundation of the other arguments against sola Scriptura. Not only do I find this an extremely weak argument (that was addressed by Luther himself), but I also find the basis of the argument to be void by the substance of the accusation. Reformers believe Scripture alone and the accusation attacks individuals apart from Scripture? Gods Word is insufficient because John Doe is illiterate?

I understand that the Word of God in the hands of any man can and will cause individual interpretation. I find this to be the same argument for taking citizens weapons. Some will be untrained, irresponsible and some may even use them to harm others or themselves. Therefore confiscate all weapons. The fact that someone can interpret Scripture to mean anything they want it to does not negate the fact that Scripture has one interpretation and it itself is sufficient for all knowledge of saving faith.

This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
For what's it's worth.. Goose's interpretations of scripture really have nothing to do with the solas that you suscribe to, sorry if I offended.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jocose » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:51 am

Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I read through most of the Sola threads before posting this thread. I found this argument to be the most used. In fact this argument is the foundation of the other arguments against sola Scriptura. Not only do I find this an extremely weak argument (that was addressed by Luther himself), but I also find the basis of the argument to be void by the substance of the accusation. Reformers believe Scripture alone and the accusation attacks individuals apart from Scripture? Gods Word is insufficient because John Doe is illiterate?

I understand that the Word of God in the hands of any man can and will cause individual interpretation. I find this to be the same argument for taking citizens weapons. Some will be untrained, irresponsible and some may even use them to harm others or themselves. Therefore confiscate all weapons. The fact that someone can interpret Scripture to mean anything they want it to does not negate the fact that Scripture has one interpretation and it itself is sufficient for all knowledge of saving faith.

This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
For what's it's worth.. Goose's interpretations of scripture really have nothing to do with the solas that you suscribe to, sorry if I offended or caused any confusion.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:04 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:08 pm
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
… This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
This, to me, somewhat encapsulates the subject under consideration. The essence of Sola Scriptura is the assertion that "The" Church (or a church) should —in principle — "be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture". But whether or not "The" Church (or any church) ever does so must forever remain an unknowable "X". Protestant faith is essentially a content-free faith, in the context of which Sola Scriptura functions as a limit-concept.
Once again the foundation of your argument against sola Scriptura is not that Scripture is fallible but that men are. This does not disqualify that Scripture is our prime source which the church is subject to.
Your argument also assumes that Protestants are content/context free yet this is the same accusation Luther pointed out in the Catholic church. 95 times.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:20 am

Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:12 pm
The Emmaus story is especially revealing.
- The disciples did not recognize Jesus in the flesh. Jesus did not want them to find Jesus that way.
- The disciples did not recognize Jesus in the Scripture alone... even as Jesus revealed Himself in the Scriptures! This is not how Jesus wants us to see Him.
- The disciples eyes were opened, and the recognized Jesus in the breaking of the Bread. This is how Jesus wants us to know Him!
I agree. We cannot recognize or know Christ unless he reveals himself to us.
Careful Del, you sound like a 5 point Calvinist right here.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:31 am

How about this. Maybe let's not keep talking about sola Scriptura specifically. There's a thread for that if anyone wants to continue to misunderstand it.

The funny thing about the 5 solas is that everyone who disagrees with one of them seems to put all of the emphasis on the word 'alone'. But what we're talking about here is really just a mnemonic. Just like T.U.L.I.P is a mnemonic. It's a way to help folks remember certain points that can stretch out from there. In so far as they help, fantastic. But when one begins to replace the actual doctrine with the mnemonic, it's no longer helpful. That's what's happening here with sola Scriptura (oh really? scripture all alone by its lonesome self with no other things alongside it or no other peoples to say anything about it or no church even for 500 years?). The doctrine is more than the mnemonic device originally meant to aid.

That's not to say the 'alones' aren't important, but that they should be understood within the context of their doctrines.

I would put forward, that if one is offended or can't get around the 'alone' aspect of the solas, that they try to drop it and try to come at it from another angle (granted, this would require a genuine desire to understand what the doctrine is actually saying).

That said, maybe lets focus in on another 'sola'. How about Sola Deo Gloria. All glory is due to God alone. That's a good one regardless of what side of the river yer on, no?
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:34 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:31 am
That said, maybe lets focus in on another 'sola'. How about Sola Deo Gloria. All glory is due to God alone. That's a good one regardless of what side of the river yer on, no?
How does that work in the Jesus of Nazareth, Man-God kind-of-case?




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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:37 am

Jocose wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:51 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I read through most of the Sola threads before posting this thread. I found this argument to be the most used. In fact this argument is the foundation of the other arguments against sola Scriptura. Not only do I find this an extremely weak argument (that was addressed by Luther himself), but I also find the basis of the argument to be void by the substance of the accusation. Reformers believe Scripture alone and the accusation attacks individuals apart from Scripture? Gods Word is insufficient because John Doe is illiterate?

I understand that the Word of God in the hands of any man can and will cause individual interpretation. I find this to be the same argument for taking citizens weapons. Some will be untrained, irresponsible and some may even use them to harm others or themselves. Therefore confiscate all weapons. The fact that someone can interpret Scripture to mean anything they want it to does not negate the fact that Scripture has one interpretation and it itself is sufficient for all knowledge of saving faith.

This does not reject the church, if anything it should solidify a Scripture teaching church. The church should be able to correctly teach what is in Scripture but to say that because Goose church cant do it also majorly points out that the Catholic and Orthodox church cant either. Which drives to the heart of the doctrine of sola Scriptura. All churches are under the authority of Christ by fallible men. When fallible men start to go astray we have a solid baseline that is sufficient for all teaching, rebuke, correction and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What's really scary is that some may even get so pompous that they find their own knowledge of God to be so right that it is infallible. Getting so lofty they shoot their righteous arrows at the poor goose below them.
For what's it's worth.. Goose's interpretations of scripture really have nothing to do with the solas that you suscribe to, sorry if I offended or caused any confusion.
You did not offend. Wos was right that this thread was meant for a discussion.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:42 am

+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:37 am
Wos was right that this thread was meant for a discussion.
Image




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