The Five Solas

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Del » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:10 am
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:09 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
Why the protesting?

Come and see!
At one point in time the Reformers did try and build a bridge with the Orthodox Church. I think this article is helpful. It shows that the Reformers do see the Orthodox Church attractive but find it lacking in Scriptural teaching.

A Calvinist Looks at Orthodoxy
by Jack D. Kinneer
http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/calvini ... odoxy.html
The Orthodox want nothing to do with Protestantism, right? Basically, because the Reformation teachers are so far off of the teaching of the Apostles.

The Reformation theology still has the burden of proving that it is true. Calvin convinced a sliver of the culture (especially where he had help from the government and military). But most of the world's Christians did not accept it because it is so different from what the Apostles taught.

Back when Thoth (our fiercely well-trained Coptic friend) was posting actively, he pointed out that the West has always thought too much about the revelation that we have received. The Bread becomes the Christ -- we don't have to apply Aristotelian philosophy to know this. We can see this by Scripture Alone. As soon as Aquinas invented the word transubstantiation to describe what happens, someone was tempted to say, "That's not in the Bible! Let's through it all out -- the new word, and the old, Apostolic idea that it describes."

I like the way that Thoth summed it all up. He looked at the rationalist Catholics, trying to describe what we already know -- and the hyper-rationalism of Calvin, trying to explain away what we have always known.

Speaking grandly for all of the Orthodox Christians, Thoth said, "We think your both nuts."

I whole-heartedly agree.
===============================

Christian arguments fall into two types.
- Arguments over how the essentials of Christian faith work.
- Arguments that deny something essential in Christian faith.

I am not interested in discussing "imputed guilt" and atonement. We all agree that Jesus died for our sins, and somehow His sacrifice on the Cross restored repentant Christians into righteous relationship with the Father. As far as I am concerned, individual theories and reflections are equally interesting... and all of them fall short of fully explaining this divine mystery.

I am very interested in helping Christians of the Protestant tradition restore what has been lost or taken from them. Things like relationship with Mary and the Saints, the priesthood of Christ, and the Blessed Sacrament -- most of all.

The whole of Scripture leads up to that climactic moment when Christ establishes His New Covenant by sacrificing His own Flesh and Blood. The Last Supper/Crucifixion event is the apex. Everything before points to this, and everything after proceeds from this.

Looking at the Crucifixion alone, simply as an act of atonement, means ignoring the larger part of what salvation is.... and ignoring a great part of Scripture.
Del, one can not simply refute all the falsehoods and fallacies in your lengthy opinion pieces. I will get one at the beginning and one at the end.
1. The Reformation theology still has the burden of proving that it is true.
As opposed to RCC and EO? This is a large claim due to the fact that Reformed Theology's prime source is written and sealed and RCC/EO add hearsay unwritten tradition. Funny enough that Orthodox and RCC are separate because unwritten tradition variations. Do you both have proof that your apostolic tradition is the correct one? The end of your claim strengthens Sola Scriptura therefore IMHO gives Reformed Theology greater proof than both RCC and EO.

2. Looking at the Crucifixion alone, simply as an act of atonement, means ignoring the larger part of what salvation is.... and ignoring a great part of Scripture.
Who is doing this? If this is truly your view of Reformed Theology you cut your own legs out beneath you and leave Wos to run the race with us. The only ignoring here is being done by you. The strange thing is that you claim we ignore this subject but in the middle of this discussion you claim to ignore it due to the mystery it holds.
I am not interested in discussing "imputed guilt" and atonement. We all agree that Jesus died for our sins, and somehow His sacrifice on the Cross restored repentant Christians into righteous relationship with the Father. As far as I am concerned, individual theories and reflections are equally interesting... and all of them fall short of fully explaining this divine mystery.
Your second point went over my head. I meant it when I said that I don't find this argument over imputed guilt to be interesting at all.
- However, I found something in tuttle's recent post over in the "Communion wrong today" thread. I argued that it's not about guilt; it's about relationship. I made a long comment over there, which might help explain.

First point: The separation of the East and West is not a theological dispute. It is more of a political split; a family feud. Can you point out the theological arguments that separate the East from the West? I can't. (No, the filoque dispute is not enough.)

Meanwhile, the Apostolic Church is able to defend the truth of our teachings. All we have to do is open the Early Church Fathers, and demonstrate that we still believe what they taught. We believe the Scriptures the way that they believed, even as they wrote the Scriptures.

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
===============================
Here are a few links, in case you are interested.

A link to show that the Early Church Fathers believed in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

And here is an interesting link, in which they unwrite each Father to make "This is My Body" into "but this is not really My Body":
http://thecripplegate.com/did-the-early ... antiation/

I can see what authors of the second link are missing. We can talk more, if this interests you.
Hint: Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was a symbol of His atonement for our sins.

We really need to get together over some tobacco and barbecue, open up the Scripture, and compare how Calvin read it to how the Apostles read it.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Del » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:35 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
Those were assertions which still need to be proved. The hierarchy of the RCC answered these with the Council of Trent, dealing with the items that had merit (we no longer sell indulgences) and condemning those which were found to be false.

But the real test is whether the Protestant theologies can persuade and convert believing Christians. This struggle is still ongoing, after 500 years.

The power of compelling truth is convincing. Something like the wave of Christian conversions among the 8 million pagans of South and Central America in the first decade after the appearance of Mary at Guadalupe. I notice that Pentecostal Christians are the fastest growing of all denominations. The evidence of miracles is powerful evangelization.

I am troubled by the lack of miracles among the stories of the Reformation Fathers. The Protestant Fathers even had to develop a theology that restricted miracles to the decades of Scripture-writing.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by tuttle » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:56 am

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:35 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
Those were assertions which still need to be proved. The hierarchy of the RCC answered these with the Council of Trent, dealing with the items that had merit (we no longer sell indulgences) and condemning those which were found to be false.

But the real test is whether the Protestant theologies can persuade and convert believing Christians. This struggle is still ongoing, after 500 years.

The power of compelling truth is convincing. Something like the wave of Christian conversions among the 8 million pagans of South and Central America in the first decade after the appearance of Mary at Guadalupe. I notice that Pentecostal Christians are the fastest growing of all denominations. The evidence of miracles is powerful evangelization.

I am troubled by the lack of miracles among the stories of the Reformation Fathers. The Protestant Fathers even had to develop a theology that restricted miracles to the decades of Scripture-writing.
This kind of argument looking for authenticity, trying to see if it really is from God, sounds like something Paul saw in his own day. "Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom", but the Reformed Christians are content to align themselves with Paul on this: "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Rusty » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:59 am

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:35 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
Those were assertions which still need to be proved. The hierarchy of the RCC answered these with the Council of Trent, dealing with the items that had merit (we no longer sell indulgences) and condemning those which were found to be false.

But the real test is whether the Protestant theologies can persuade and convert believing Christians. This struggle is still ongoing, after 500 years.

The power of compelling truth is convincing. Something like the wave of Christian conversions among the 8 million pagans of South and Central America in the first decade after the appearance of Mary at Guadalupe. I notice that Pentecostal Christians are the fastest growing of all denominations. The evidence of miracles is powerful evangelization.

I am troubled by the lack of miracles among the stories of the Reformation Fathers. The Protestant Fathers even had to develop a theology that restricted miracles to the decades of Scripture-writing.
Proved!? This is crazy Del. The selling of indulgences is extortion. It's criminal and the church was corrupt. This was widely known at the time. Luther isn't the only one saying these things. It desperately needed reform. And Luther's reform changed the world. So much is owed to his ideas and reforms. From soaring literacy rates to universal education and much more he made the modern world possible. Celebrating the 500th anniversary is quite right.

Both Pope Francis and Pope Benedict have praised Martin Luther. What does it take for you to see reality?
On the 31st you better be here with your party hat on and effusive praise for the Reformation and Luther.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Del » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:15 am

tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:56 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:35 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
Those were assertions which still need to be proved. The hierarchy of the RCC answered these with the Council of Trent, dealing with the items that had merit (we no longer sell indulgences) and condemning those which were found to be false.

But the real test is whether the Protestant theologies can persuade and convert believing Christians. This struggle is still ongoing, after 500 years.

The power of compelling truth is convincing. Something like the wave of Christian conversions among the 8 million pagans of South and Central America in the first decade after the appearance of Mary at Guadalupe. I notice that Pentecostal Christians are the fastest growing of all denominations. The evidence of miracles is powerful evangelization.

I am troubled by the lack of miracles among the stories of the Reformation Fathers. The Protestant Fathers even had to develop a theology that restricted miracles to the decades of Scripture-writing.
This kind of argument looking for authenticity, trying to see if it really is from God, sounds like something Paul saw in his own day. "Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom", but the Reformed Christians are content to align themselves with Paul on this: "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".
As we "test everything, and keep what is good," Catholic wisdom notes three "motives of credibility." These are marks that help to confirm our trust in any message claiming to come from God.

1) Prophecies. God always fore-warns us before He acts. Scripture warned us that there would be false teachers, antichrists claiming to be from God, and demons seeking to scatter the sheep.

2) Miracles. When God sends messengers to warn or console us, He signals this with miracles. Today is the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by tens of thousands of people, on the final apparition of Mary at Fatima. She promised this sign, which is why so many people were gathered to witness it (or trying to discount it). It gave us cause to trust the messages that Mary gave to the little children -- calls to repentance, warnings of a greater war to come as chastisement if we fail to repent, urging us to turn from sexual impurity, etc.

3) Consistent teaching of the Apostles, handed down through the generations. Any message that is consistent with the long teaching of the Apostolic Church has a built-in credibility.

- Scripture does not have any prophecies about a reformation, but there are prophecies about apostasy and scattering.
- So we looked for miracles to confirm the Reformation Fathers, but the Fathers disdained trust in miracles.
- And we were not motivated by the turnings of Reformation theology against the ancient teaching of Christianity, especially the denial of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.

The motives of credibility explain my fondness for Pentecostal Christians. They have the signs and miracles which mark God's blessing on their work. (Some years ago I saw a thread here by mainline Protestant folks, mocking Pentecostals for their delight in sharing their miracle stories. I wondered at that.)
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by tuttle » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:11 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:15 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:56 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:35 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
Those were assertions which still need to be proved. The hierarchy of the RCC answered these with the Council of Trent, dealing with the items that had merit (we no longer sell indulgences) and condemning those which were found to be false.

But the real test is whether the Protestant theologies can persuade and convert believing Christians. This struggle is still ongoing, after 500 years.

The power of compelling truth is convincing. Something like the wave of Christian conversions among the 8 million pagans of South and Central America in the first decade after the appearance of Mary at Guadalupe. I notice that Pentecostal Christians are the fastest growing of all denominations. The evidence of miracles is powerful evangelization.

I am troubled by the lack of miracles among the stories of the Reformation Fathers. The Protestant Fathers even had to develop a theology that restricted miracles to the decades of Scripture-writing.
This kind of argument looking for authenticity, trying to see if it really is from God, sounds like something Paul saw in his own day. "Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom", but the Reformed Christians are content to align themselves with Paul on this: "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".
As we "test everything, and keep what is good," Catholic wisdom notes three "motives of credibility." These are marks that help to confirm our trust in any message claiming to come from God.

1) Prophecies. God always fore-warns us before He acts. Scripture warned us that there would be false teachers, antichrists claiming to be from God, and demons seeking to scatter the sheep.

2) Miracles. When God sends messengers to warn or console us, He signals this with miracles. Today is the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by tens of thousands of people, on the final apparition of Mary at Fatima. She promised this sign, which is why so many people were gathered to witness it (or trying to discount it). It gave us cause to trust the messages that Mary gave to the little children -- calls to repentance, warnings of a greater war to come as chastisement if we fail to repent, urging us to turn from sexual impurity, etc.

3) Consistent teaching of the Apostles, handed down through the generations. Any message that is consistent with the long teaching of the Apostolic Church has a built-in credibility.

- Scripture does not have any prophecies about a reformation, but there are prophecies about apostasy and scattering.
- So we looked for miracles to confirm the Reformation Fathers, but the Fathers disdained trust in miracles.
- And we were not motivated by the turnings of Reformation theology against the ancient teaching of Christianity, especially the denial of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.

The motives of credibility explain my fondness for Pentecostal Christians. They have the signs and miracles which mark God's blessing on their work. (Some years ago I saw a thread here by mainline Protestant folks, mocking Pentecostals for their delight in sharing their miracle stories. I wondered at that.)
I sometimes think you are the Pentecostal version of Catholicism. There are quite a few parallels.

But Rusty does bring up a good point.

Both Frank and Ben have expressed gratitude towards Marty, and they, quite literally more than you, ought to have a bigger axe to grind with him. What gives?
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

The Reformation Drinking Song

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:06 pm

+JMJ+

This is, IMO, a very good and very fair, Catholic appraisal of Luther: The Luther Question

It's also not very long (9 pages).

NOTE: My posting of this should not be construed as a remark on any supposed merits/demerits of Del's comments.




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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Del » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:09 pm

tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:15 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:56 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:35 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
Those were assertions which still need to be proved. The hierarchy of the RCC answered these with the Council of Trent, dealing with the items that had merit (we no longer sell indulgences) and condemning those which were found to be false.

But the real test is whether the Protestant theologies can persuade and convert believing Christians. This struggle is still ongoing, after 500 years.

The power of compelling truth is convincing. Something like the wave of Christian conversions among the 8 million pagans of South and Central America in the first decade after the appearance of Mary at Guadalupe. I notice that Pentecostal Christians are the fastest growing of all denominations. The evidence of miracles is powerful evangelization.

I am troubled by the lack of miracles among the stories of the Reformation Fathers. The Protestant Fathers even had to develop a theology that restricted miracles to the decades of Scripture-writing.
This kind of argument looking for authenticity, trying to see if it really is from God, sounds like something Paul saw in his own day. "Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom", but the Reformed Christians are content to align themselves with Paul on this: "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".
As we "test everything, and keep what is good," Catholic wisdom notes three "motives of credibility." These are marks that help to confirm our trust in any message claiming to come from God.

1) Prophecies. God always fore-warns us before He acts. Scripture warned us that there would be false teachers, antichrists claiming to be from God, and demons seeking to scatter the sheep.

2) Miracles. When God sends messengers to warn or console us, He signals this with miracles. Today is the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by tens of thousands of people, on the final apparition of Mary at Fatima. She promised this sign, which is why so many people were gathered to witness it (or trying to discount it). It gave us cause to trust the messages that Mary gave to the little children -- calls to repentance, warnings of a greater war to come as chastisement if we fail to repent, urging us to turn from sexual impurity, etc.

3) Consistent teaching of the Apostles, handed down through the generations. Any message that is consistent with the long teaching of the Apostolic Church has a built-in credibility.

- Scripture does not have any prophecies about a reformation, but there are prophecies about apostasy and scattering.
- So we looked for miracles to confirm the Reformation Fathers, but the Fathers disdained trust in miracles.
- And we were not motivated by the turnings of Reformation theology against the ancient teaching of Christianity, especially the denial of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.

The motives of credibility explain my fondness for Pentecostal Christians. They have the signs and miracles which mark God's blessing on their work. (Some years ago I saw a thread here by mainline Protestant folks, mocking Pentecostals for their delight in sharing their miracle stories. I wondered at that.)
I sometimes think you are the Pentecostal version of Catholicism. There are quite a few parallels.

But Rusty does bring up a good point.

Both Frank and Ben have expressed gratitude towards Marty, and they, quite literally more than you, ought to have a bigger axe to grind with him. What gives?
I can only guess at this... Expressing my opinions here might only get me into trouble, without shedding any light on what the Popes are thinking.

If we ignore the damage that resulted from Luther's revolt, we can appreciate that he brought many real problems to light. Without Luther, we might not have gotten around to having a Council of Trent to fix the problems of money and power, simony, patronage and nepotism among the Church's hierarchy.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by sweetandsour » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:39 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:09 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:15 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:56 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:35 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

After 500 years, the Protestant apologists have failed to show us how or when the Catholic Church changed the faith and deviated from the Apostolic Tradition.
And after 500 years the Catholic Church has closed their eyes and ears to it. In fact, we started off with 95. :wink:
http://www.theopedia.com/95-theses
Those were assertions which still need to be proved. The hierarchy of the RCC answered these with the Council of Trent, dealing with the items that had merit (we no longer sell indulgences) and condemning those which were found to be false.

But the real test is whether the Protestant theologies can persuade and convert believing Christians. This struggle is still ongoing, after 500 years.

The power of compelling truth is convincing. Something like the wave of Christian conversions among the 8 million pagans of South and Central America in the first decade after the appearance of Mary at Guadalupe. I notice that Pentecostal Christians are the fastest growing of all denominations. The evidence of miracles is powerful evangelization.

I am troubled by the lack of miracles among the stories of the Reformation Fathers. The Protestant Fathers even had to develop a theology that restricted miracles to the decades of Scripture-writing.
This kind of argument looking for authenticity, trying to see if it really is from God, sounds like something Paul saw in his own day. "Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom", but the Reformed Christians are content to align themselves with Paul on this: "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles".
As we "test everything, and keep what is good," Catholic wisdom notes three "motives of credibility." These are marks that help to confirm our trust in any message claiming to come from God.

1) Prophecies. God always fore-warns us before He acts. Scripture warned us that there would be false teachers, antichrists claiming to be from God, and demons seeking to scatter the sheep.

2) Miracles. When God sends messengers to warn or console us, He signals this with miracles. Today is the 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by tens of thousands of people, on the final apparition of Mary at Fatima. She promised this sign, which is why so many people were gathered to witness it (or trying to discount it). It gave us cause to trust the messages that Mary gave to the little children -- calls to repentance, warnings of a greater war to come as chastisement if we fail to repent, urging us to turn from sexual impurity, etc.

3) Consistent teaching of the Apostles, handed down through the generations. Any message that is consistent with the long teaching of the Apostolic Church has a built-in credibility.

- Scripture does not have any prophecies about a reformation, but there are prophecies about apostasy and scattering.
- So we looked for miracles to confirm the Reformation Fathers, but the Fathers disdained trust in miracles.
- And we were not motivated by the turnings of Reformation theology against the ancient teaching of Christianity, especially the denial of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.

The motives of credibility explain my fondness for Pentecostal Christians. They have the signs and miracles which mark God's blessing on their work. (Some years ago I saw a thread here by mainline Protestant folks, mocking Pentecostals for their delight in sharing their miracle stories. I wondered at that.)
I sometimes think you are the Pentecostal version of Catholicism. There are quite a few parallels.

But Rusty does bring up a good point.

Both Frank and Ben have expressed gratitude towards Marty, and they, quite literally more than you, ought to have a bigger axe to grind with him. What gives?
I can only guess at this... Expressing my opinions here might only get me into trouble, without shedding any light on what the Popes are thinking.

If we ignore the damage that resulted from Luther's revolt, we can appreciate that he brought many real problems to light. Without Luther, we might not have gotten around to having a Council of Trent to fix the problems of money and power, simony, patronage and nepotism among the Church's hierarchy.
Del,next time we meet up, I'll buy you a beer, and we'll smoke of your Presbyterian Mixture.
As thus we sat in darkness
Each one busy with his prayers,
"We are lost!" the captain shouted,
As he staggered down the stairs.

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:42 am

Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
https://youtu.be/NOTjJaVut98
Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

Every morning get alone with God and preach his Word into your mind until your heart sings with confidence that you are new and cared for. -John Piper

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hugodrax
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:15 pm

Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:42 am
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
https://youtu.be/NOTjJaVut98
Congratulations, Jester. Less people have watched those than clicked on Wosbald's links to Catholic newspapers.

You win an, erm, award.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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