The Five Solas

For those deep thinkers out there.
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Cleon
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Cleon » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:21 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:04 am
+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:52 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:57 am
What I'm asking is, how does one isolate Christ's human-nature so as to ensure that it doesn't receive a single drop of glory?
That's a strange question, wos. I think the key is that one can't practically isolate Christ's human nature from his (Trinitarian) God nature. It's a mystery that we can only take so far. One can do it in thought, but that's not REAL. So, when Jesus the god-man is glorified so is the Trinity.

Oh, I see the Chalcedon question. You know, the Reformed come directly out of the RCC. We're creedal. As such, there is a lot of overlap. I'd submit that the context, concerning Chaldedon, is not as different as you think it is.
Sounds like you're saying that there's no way to insulate Christ's human-nature from sharing in the glory. That is, not without a creedal violation.

If so, careful. If you keep following this track, you'll soon find the Protestant barriers erected against Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism falling like dominoes.
Yes, that is what I am saying. I knew I could count on you to distill it even more. Don't be too hasty on that last part, though. :lol:
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Cleon
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Cleon » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:27 am

Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:12 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:04 am
+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:52 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:57 am
What I'm asking is, how does one isolate Christ's human-nature so as to ensure that it doesn't receive a single drop of glory?
That's a strange question, wos. I think the key is that one can't practically isolate Christ's human nature from his (Trinitarian) God nature. It's a mystery that we can only take so far. One can do it in thought, but that's not REAL. So, when Jesus the god-man is glorified so is the Trinity.

Oh, I see the Chalcedon question. You know, the Reformed come directly out of the RCC. We're creedal. As such, there is a lot of overlap. I'd submit that the context, concerning Chaldedon, is not as different as you think it is.
Sounds like you're saying that there's no way to insulate Christ's human-nature from sharing in the glory. That is, not without a creedal violation.

If so, careful. If you keep following this track, you'll soon find the Protestant barriers erected against Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism falling like dominoes.
Is Wos actually attempting to "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" as opposed to Del's standard "Seek first to explain to others what they understand and keep repeating it until they just give up and agree"?
wos is a good listener. I'll give him that. He also doesn't mince words. I appreciate that. He might make up some words, but that's another story.
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Goose55 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am

Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Cleon » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
Image
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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Skip
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am

Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
Image
You know, when he first started posting, I swore he was a sock puppet. He's just too consistent with the act.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by FredS » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm

Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
Image
You know, when he first started posting, I swore he was a sock puppet. He's just too consistent with the act.
Could it be that Gooses "It works for me" line is genius-level sarcasm that zinged right over your head?
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by FredS » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
Image
You know, when he first started posting, I swore he was a sock puppet. He's just too consistent with the act.
Could it be that Gooses "It works for me" line is genius-level sarcasm that zinged right over your head?
Probably not.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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FredS
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by FredS » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
Image
You know, when he first started posting, I swore he was a sock puppet. He's just too consistent with the act.
Could it be that Gooses "It works for me" line is genius-level sarcasm that zinged right over your head?
Probably not.
But maybe.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by hugodrax » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:31 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:14 pm
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
Image
You know, when he first started posting, I swore he was a sock puppet. He's just too consistent with the act.
Could it be that Gooses "It works for me" line is genius-level sarcasm that zinged right over your head?
Probably not.
But maybe.
Literally, 0% chance. But it's still a great line.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Goose55
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Goose55 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:24 pm

I love all you guys, you know that? Even though you still won't let me sit at your lunchroom table.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by coco » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:36 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:38 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:13 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:09 pm
In before the lock.
Says the guy holding the lock...
I've got a sock, Coco. Put the lock in the sock.
Putting a lock in the sock would rock.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Goose55 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:36 pm

Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:47 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:41 am
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:25 am
Goose's interpretations of the Bible are evidence enough that Sola Scriptura does not work.
I don't know why you say that. It works for me.
Image
You know, when he first started posting, I swore he was a sock puppet. He's just too consistent with the act.
No acting here at all. Just genuine being.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am

Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:50 am

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:24 pm
I love all you guys, you know that? Even though you still won't let me sit at your lunchroom table.
Goose, you can sit at my lunchroom table. Yeesh, nobody is that cruel. After all, once I'm done and have left, could I really still claim it was MY lunch room table anymore?
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am

Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jocose » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am

Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
Why the protesting?

Come and see!
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:09 am

Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
Why the protesting?

Come and see!
At one point in time the Reformers did try and build a bridge with the Orthodox Church. I think this article is helpful. It shows that the Reformers do see the Orthodox Church attractive but find it lacking in Scriptural teaching.

A Calvinist Looks at Orthodoxy
by Jack D. Kinneer
http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/calvini ... odoxy.html
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Del » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:10 am

Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:09 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
Why the protesting?

Come and see!
At one point in time the Reformers did try and build a bridge with the Orthodox Church. I think this article is helpful. It shows that the Reformers do see the Orthodox Church attractive but find it lacking in Scriptural teaching.

A Calvinist Looks at Orthodoxy
by Jack D. Kinneer
http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/calvini ... odoxy.html
The Orthodox want nothing to do with Protestantism, right? Basically, because the Reformation teachers are so far off of the teaching of the Apostles.

The Reformation theology still has the burden of proving that it is true. Calvin convinced a sliver of the culture (especially where he had help from the government and military). But most of the world's Christians did not accept it because it is so different from what the Apostles taught.

Back when Thoth (our fiercely well-trained Coptic friend) was posting actively, he pointed out that the West has always thought too much about the revelation that we have received. The Bread becomes the Christ -- we don't have to apply Aristotelian philosophy to know this. We can see this by Scripture Alone. As soon as Aquinas invented the word transubstantiation to describe what happens, someone was tempted to say, "That's not in the Bible! Let's through it all out -- the new word, and the old, Apostolic idea that it describes."

I like the way that Thoth summed it all up. He looked at the rationalist Catholics, trying to describe what we already know -- and the hyper-rationalism of Calvin, trying to explain away what we have always known.

Speaking grandly for all of the Orthodox Christians, Thoth said, "We think your both nuts."

I whole-heartedly agree.
===============================

Christian arguments fall into two types.
- Arguments over how the essentials of Christian faith work.
- Arguments that deny something essential in Christian faith.

I am not interested in discussing "imputed guilt" and atonement. We all agree that Jesus died for our sins, and somehow His sacrifice on the Cross restored repentant Christians into righteous relationship with the Father. As far as I am concerned, individual theories and reflections are equally interesting... and all of them fall short of fully explaining this divine mystery.

I am very interested in helping Christians of the Protestant tradition restore what has been lost or taken from them. Things like relationship with Mary and the Saints, the priesthood of Christ, and the Blessed Sacrament -- most of all.

The whole of Scripture leads up to that climactic moment when Christ establishes His New Covenant by sacrificing His own Flesh and Blood. The Last Supper/Crucifixion event is the apex. Everything before points to this, and everything after proceeds from this.

Looking at the Crucifixion alone, simply as an act of atonement, means ignoring the larger part of what salvation is.... and ignoring a great part of Scripture.
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Re: The Five Solas

Post by Jester » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:30 am

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:10 am
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:09 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am
Jester wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am
Our church is prepared for our 5 Solas series!
https://youtu.be/TVIda1Eg2uo
https://youtu.be/ubM-vKFufQI
Why the protesting?

Come and see!
At one point in time the Reformers did try and build a bridge with the Orthodox Church. I think this article is helpful. It shows that the Reformers do see the Orthodox Church attractive but find it lacking in Scriptural teaching.

A Calvinist Looks at Orthodoxy
by Jack D. Kinneer
http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/calvini ... odoxy.html
The Orthodox want nothing to do with Protestantism, right? Basically, because the Reformation teachers are so far off of the teaching of the Apostles.

The Reformation theology still has the burden of proving that it is true. Calvin convinced a sliver of the culture (especially where he had help from the government and military). But most of the world's Christians did not accept it because it is so different from what the Apostles taught.

Back when Thoth (our fiercely well-trained Coptic friend) was posting actively, he pointed out that the West has always thought too much about the revelation that we have received. The Bread becomes the Christ -- we don't have to apply Aristotelian philosophy to know this. We can see this by Scripture Alone. As soon as Aquinas invented the word transubstantiation to describe what happens, someone was tempted to say, "That's not in the Bible! Let's through it all out -- the new word, and the old, Apostolic idea that it describes."

I like the way that Thoth summed it all up. He looked at the rationalist Catholics, trying to describe what we already know -- and the hyper-rationalism of Calvin, trying to explain away what we have always known.

Speaking grandly for all of the Orthodox Christians, Thoth said, "We think your both nuts."

I whole-heartedly agree.
===============================

Christian arguments fall into two types.
- Arguments over how the essentials of Christian faith work.
- Arguments that deny something essential in Christian faith.

I am not interested in discussing "imputed guilt" and atonement. We all agree that Jesus died for our sins, and somehow His sacrifice on the Cross restored repentant Christians into righteous relationship with the Father. As far as I am concerned, individual theories and reflections are equally interesting... and all of them fall short of fully explaining this divine mystery.

I am very interested in helping Christians of the Protestant tradition restore what has been lost or taken from them. Things like relationship with Mary and the Saints, the priesthood of Christ, and the Blessed Sacrament -- most of all.

The whole of Scripture leads up to that climactic moment when Christ establishes His New Covenant by sacrificing His own Flesh and Blood. The Last Supper/Crucifixion event is the apex. Everything before points to this, and everything after proceeds from this.

Looking at the Crucifixion alone, simply as an act of atonement, means ignoring the larger part of what salvation is.... and ignoring a great part of Scripture.
Del, one can not simply refute all the falsehoods and fallacies in your lengthy opinion pieces. I will get one at the beginning and one at the end.
1. The Reformation theology still has the burden of proving that it is true.
As opposed to RCC and EO? This is a large claim due to the fact that Reformed Theology's prime source is written and sealed and RCC/EO add hearsay unwritten tradition. Funny enough that Orthodox and RCC are separate because unwritten tradition variations. Do you both have proof that your apostolic tradition is the correct one? The end of your claim strengthens Sola Scriptura therefore IMHO gives Reformed Theology greater proof than both RCC and EO.

2. Looking at the Crucifixion alone, simply as an act of atonement, means ignoring the larger part of what salvation is.... and ignoring a great part of Scripture.
Who is doing this? If this is truly your view of Reformed Theology you cut your own legs out beneath you and leave Wos to run the race with us. The only ignoring here is being done by you. The strange thing is that you claim we ignore this subject but in the middle of this discussion you claim to ignore it due to the mystery it holds.
I am not interested in discussing "imputed guilt" and atonement. We all agree that Jesus died for our sins, and somehow His sacrifice on the Cross restored repentant Christians into righteous relationship with the Father. As far as I am concerned, individual theories and reflections are equally interesting... and all of them fall short of fully explaining this divine mystery.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: The Five Solas

Post by tuttle » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:37 am

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:10 am
Basically, because the Reformation teachers are so far off of the teaching of the Apostles.

....

Things like relationship with Mary and the Saints


ok.
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

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