NO Reformation at 500

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Skip » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am

coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
LOL!!! Excellent point! I hate to tell our Cathlodox brethren (and sisteren) (okay, no i don't), but the vast, VAST, V-A-S-T majority of so-called Protestants couldn't care less about the Reformation. Seriously. Get over it. We certainly have.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by infidel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:51 am

Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am
coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
LOL!!! Excellent point! I hate to tell our Cathlodox brethren (and sisteren) (okay, no i don't), but the vast, VAST, V-A-S-T majority of so-called Protestants couldn't care less about the Reformation. Seriously. Get over it. We certainly have.
Most also couldn't care less about that crusty dusty old institution full of man-made traditions and archaic rituals known as "The Catholic Church". They certainly aren't willing to "come home" to it. It's no more "home" to a typical Protestant than Germany is to me.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:51 am
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am
coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
LOL!!! Excellent point! I hate to tell our Cathlodox brethren (and sisteren) (okay, no i don't), but the vast, VAST, V-A-S-T majority of so-called Protestants couldn't care less about the Reformation. Seriously. Get over it. We certainly have.
Most also couldn't care less about that crusty dusty old institution full of man-made traditions and archaic rituals known as "The Catholic Church". They certainly aren't willing to "come home" to it. It's no more "home" to a typical Protestant than Germany is to me.
These are excellent points. They honestly don't care about theology.... well, anyone in the protestant church over 40 doesn't. And its not as Skip says, that reformed theology doesn't matter anymore. Its that no theology matters anymore, well at least to people over 40. So why would anyone want to go to an institution full of things not in the Scripture and on the other side why would anyone want to go to an institution where Scripture is completely subjective. I think the Christian world has kept a blind eye to the Reformed resurgence that is taking place across the world.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by infidel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:25 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:51 am
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am
coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
LOL!!! Excellent point! I hate to tell our Cathlodox brethren (and sisteren) (okay, no i don't), but the vast, VAST, V-A-S-T majority of so-called Protestants couldn't care less about the Reformation. Seriously. Get over it. We certainly have.
Most also couldn't care less about that crusty dusty old institution full of man-made traditions and archaic rituals known as "The Catholic Church". They certainly aren't willing to "come home" to it. It's no more "home" to a typical Protestant than Germany is to me.
These are excellent points. They honestly don't care about theology.... well, anyone in the protestant church over 40 doesn't. And its not as Skip says, that reformed theology doesn't matter anymore. Its that no theology matters anymore, well at least to people over 40. So why would anyone want to go to an institution full of things not in the Scripture and on the other side why would anyone want to go to an institution where Scripture is completely subjective. I think the Christian world has kept a blind eye to the Reformed resurgence that is taking place across the world.
Spoken like someone under 40.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by hugodrax » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:33 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:51 am
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am
coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
LOL!!! Excellent point! I hate to tell our Cathlodox brethren (and sisteren) (okay, no i don't), but the vast, VAST, V-A-S-T majority of so-called Protestants couldn't care less about the Reformation. Seriously. Get over it. We certainly have.
Most also couldn't care less about that crusty dusty old institution full of man-made traditions and archaic rituals known as "The Catholic Church". They certainly aren't willing to "come home" to it. It's no more "home" to a typical Protestant than Germany is to me.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Gabriel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:50 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:25 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:51 am
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am
coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
LOL!!! Excellent point! I hate to tell our Cathlodox brethren (and sisteren) (okay, no i don't), but the vast, VAST, V-A-S-T majority of so-called Protestants couldn't care less about the Reformation. Seriously. Get over it. We certainly have.
Most also couldn't care less about that crusty dusty old institution full of man-made traditions and archaic rituals known as "The Catholic Church". They certainly aren't willing to "come home" to it. It's no more "home" to a typical Protestant than Germany is to me.
These are excellent points. They honestly don't care about theology.... well, anyone in the protestant church over 40 doesn't. And its not as Skip says, that reformed theology doesn't matter anymore. Its that no theology matters anymore, well at least to people over 40. So why would anyone want to go to an institution full of things not in the Scripture and on the other side why would anyone want to go to an institution where Scripture is completely subjective. I think the Christian world has kept a blind eye to the Reformed resurgence that is taking place across the world.
Spoken like someone under 40.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by gaining_age » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:12 pm

Gabriel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:50 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:25 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:51 am
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am
coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
LOL!!! Excellent point! I hate to tell our Cathlodox brethren (and sisteren) (okay, no i don't), but the vast, VAST, V-A-S-T majority of so-called Protestants couldn't care less about the Reformation. Seriously. Get over it. We certainly have.
Most also couldn't care less about that crusty dusty old institution full of man-made traditions and archaic rituals known as "The Catholic Church". They certainly aren't willing to "come home" to it. It's no more "home" to a typical Protestant than Germany is to me.
These are excellent points. They honestly don't care about theology.... well, anyone in the protestant church over 40 doesn't. And its not as Skip says, that reformed theology doesn't matter anymore. Its that no theology matters anymore, well at least to people over 40. So why would anyone want to go to an institution full of things not in the Scripture and on the other side why would anyone want to go to an institution where Scripture is completely subjective. I think the Christian world has kept a blind eye to the Reformed resurgence that is taking place across the world.
Spoken like someone under 40.
yep
I was about to jump into that foray... Looks like you have it covered. I know many that enjoy theology and many more that care. And there are a huge number that I know of (in general) that are taking note of 500 years of reformation.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by gaining_age » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:13 pm

Did you get yours yet?

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by hugodrax » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:30 pm

Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jocose » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm

In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.

And it's fun to hear how God brought/led each of us all to Orthodoxy. One former prot I know went orthodox after seeing an Orthodox funeral, tons of stories of how God grows the church. God is good.

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by UncleBob » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:42 am

Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am

+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:42 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
But this is an equivocal use of the word "believe". Believing in the Orthodox context is "believing in 'x,y,z'". Believing in the Protestant context is "believing, full stop".




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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:00 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
But this is an equivocal use of the word "believe". Believing in the Orthodox context is "believing in 'x,y,z'". Believing in the Protestant context is "believing, full stop".
If all churches are equally close enough, with just enough truth in each to be worth belonging to, then it is just "sniping sheep."

But the Apostolic Church insists that they have the fullness of the Gospel, everything that Christ started and the Holy Spirit has grown us into. This fullness is attractive to those who already seek goodness, truth, and beauty -- "believers," as we call them.

The Apostolic Church has a commission to share this to the world. We continue do so, whether or not our part of the world has a "reformation" or a "jihad."

But the World has its own seductive attractions and promises of shortcuts to happiness. We reach out to those who are most broken by the world -- the addicts, alcoholics, victims of divorce & sex trafficking & abortion, people who are desperate with poverty or unplanned pregnancy, immigrants who are abandoned by government programs. We reach out with love to those who have hit the bottom of the World, just as Jesus did.

But the Comfortably Unchurched are very hard to reach. They don't want to be reached. The wealthy; the elitists of media, academia, and politics; those who are comfortable in their favorite sins -- they resist the Gospel.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:19 am

Del wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:00 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
But this is an equivocal use of the word "believe". Believing in the Orthodox context is "believing in 'x,y,z'". Believing in the Protestant context is "believing, full stop".
If all churches are equally close enough, with just enough truth in each to be worth belonging to, then it is just "sniping sheep."

But the Apostolic Church insists that they have the fullness of the Gospel, everything that Christ started and the Holy Spirit has grown us into. This fullness is attractive to those who already seek goodness, truth, and beauty -- "believers," as we call them.

The Apostolic Church has a commission to share this to the world. We continue do so, whether or not our part of the world has a "reformation" or a "jihad."

But the World has its own seductive attractions and promises of shortcuts to happiness. We reach out to those who are most broken by the world -- the addicts, alcoholics, victims of divorce & sex trafficking & abortion, people who are desperate with poverty or unplanned pregnancy, immigrants who are abandoned by government programs. We reach out with love to those who have hit the bottom of the World, just as Jesus did.

But the Comfortably Unchurched are very hard to reach. They don't want to be reached. The wealthy; the elitists of media, academia, and politics; those who are comfortable in their favorite sins -- they resist the Gospel.
Lets hope they don't run into those "jihadist reformers".
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:23 am

Jester wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:19 am
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:00 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
But this is an equivocal use of the word "believe". Believing in the Orthodox context is "believing in 'x,y,z'". Believing in the Protestant context is "believing, full stop".
If all churches are equally close enough, with just enough truth in each to be worth belonging to, then it is just "sniping sheep."

But the Apostolic Church insists that they have the fullness of the Gospel, everything that Christ started and the Holy Spirit has grown us into. This fullness is attractive to those who already seek goodness, truth, and beauty -- "believers," as we call them.

The Apostolic Church has a commission to share this to the world. We continue do so, whether or not our part of the world has a "reformation" or a "jihad."

But the World has its own seductive attractions and promises of shortcuts to happiness. We reach out to those who are most broken by the world -- the addicts, alcoholics, victims of divorce & sex trafficking & abortion, people who are desperate with poverty or unplanned pregnancy, immigrants who are abandoned by government programs. We reach out with love to those who have hit the bottom of the World, just as Jesus did.

But the Comfortably Unchurched are very hard to reach. They don't want to be reached. The wealthy; the elitists of media, academia, and politics; those who are comfortable in their favorite sins -- they resist the Gospel.
Lets hope they don't run into those "jihadist reformers".
:lol: I'm glad someone else saw that too. I was all

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:33 am

tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:23 am
Jester wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:19 am
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:00 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
But this is an equivocal use of the word "believe". Believing in the Orthodox context is "believing in 'x,y,z'". Believing in the Protestant context is "believing, full stop".
If all churches are equally close enough, with just enough truth in each to be worth belonging to, then it is just "sniping sheep."

But the Apostolic Church insists that they have the fullness of the Gospel, everything that Christ started and the Holy Spirit has grown us into. This fullness is attractive to those who already seek goodness, truth, and beauty -- "believers," as we call them.

The Apostolic Church has a commission to share this to the world. We continue do so, whether or not our part of the world has a "reformation" or a "jihad."

But the World has its own seductive attractions and promises of shortcuts to happiness. We reach out to those who are most broken by the world -- the addicts, alcoholics, victims of divorce & sex trafficking & abortion, people who are desperate with poverty or unplanned pregnancy, immigrants who are abandoned by government programs. We reach out with love to those who have hit the bottom of the World, just as Jesus did.

But the Comfortably Unchurched are very hard to reach. They don't want to be reached. The wealthy; the elitists of media, academia, and politics; those who are comfortable in their favorite sins -- they resist the Gospel.
Lets hope they don't run into those "jihadist reformers".
:lol: I'm glad someone else saw that too. I was all

Image
Right, it could sound like this. We Reformers have the full Gospel in Scripture alone that helps us accomplish the great commission. We continue do so, whether or not our part of the world has a "Catholic Church" or a "Terrorist problem."
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When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by UncleBob » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:40 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am
+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:42 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
But this is an equivocal use of the word "believe". Believing in the Orthodox context is "believing in 'x,y,z'". Believing in the Protestant context is "believing, full stop".
I think you may need to look at a Protestant context of "believe" from a Protestant perspective rather than a Crux context. :wink:
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:58 am

Jester wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:33 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:23 am
Jester wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:19 am
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:00 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 pm
In the many different Orthodox churches that I attend in different cities, it's interesting to see that the Church is mostly ex-Evangelicals and ex-Roman Catholics filling the pews, so to speak, most Orthodox stand for Divine Liturgy and some churches don't even have chairs. There are also cradle Orthodox too, obviously.
Fascinating. I wonder... how many (formerly) unchurched folks? Or is it the CPS pattern of just sniping people who already believe? Lord knows that is easier than proclaiming the Good News and ministering to those who don't believe.
But this is an equivocal use of the word "believe". Believing in the Orthodox context is "believing in 'x,y,z'". Believing in the Protestant context is "believing, full stop".
If all churches are equally close enough, with just enough truth in each to be worth belonging to, then it is just "sniping sheep."

But the Apostolic Church insists that they have the fullness of the Gospel, everything that Christ started and the Holy Spirit has grown us into. This fullness is attractive to those who already seek goodness, truth, and beauty -- "believers," as we call them.

The Apostolic Church has a commission to share this to the world. We continue do so, whether or not our part of the world has a "reformation" or a "jihad."

But the World has its own seductive attractions and promises of shortcuts to happiness. We reach out to those who are most broken by the world -- the addicts, alcoholics, victims of divorce & sex trafficking & abortion, people who are desperate with poverty or unplanned pregnancy, immigrants who are abandoned by government programs. We reach out with love to those who have hit the bottom of the World, just as Jesus did.

But the Comfortably Unchurched are very hard to reach. They don't want to be reached. The wealthy; the elitists of media, academia, and politics; those who are comfortable in their favorite sins -- they resist the Gospel.
Lets hope they don't run into those "jihadist reformers".
:lol: I'm glad someone else saw that too. I was all

Image
Right, it could sound like this. We Reformers have the full Gospel in Scripture alone that helps us accomplish the great commission. We continue do so, whether or not our part of the world has a "Catholic Church" or a "Terrorist problem."
The Orthodox world didn't have a reformation. But they have been overrun by Islam and/or communists. Persecution during the Reformation era (about 300 years) looked the same as persecution in the East.

The full Gospel is not found in Scripture alone. It also needs that which the Scripture points to, such as the Church and the Eucharist. Jesus gave us those things first.

Then the Holy Spirit gave the Scripture to the Church, to help the Church's mission of filling the world with the Good News. When devout Bible Christians discover the Apostolic Church, it opens their eyes and fills them with joy.

Come and see!
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:03 am

Del wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:58 am
The full Gospel is not found in Scripture alone.
This truly is our greatest disagreement.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:44 am

Jester wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:03 am
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:58 am
The full Gospel is not found in Scripture alone.
This truly is our greatest disagreement.
Scripture Alone is a man-made doctrine. We know the man who invented it.

Apostolic Christians appreciate that Scripture is more true, more strong, and more alive when it lives within the context of the Church to which it was given.

For example: Within the Apostolic Church, living the Scripture means that the living Christ appears before us on His Altar, every day. He still humbles Himself, coming to meet us.

I say this with great love, mixed with regret:
When Christians try to build a Church "on Scripture alone," the foundation is too small. We end up with thousands upon thousands of little churches, instead of one great Kingdom of God.

Father Luther could just have easily developed of doctrine of "Sacraments Alone," discounting the value of both Scripture & Tradition, and based a revolt upon that. It doesn't matter which part of the Church was raised up and used to beat the rest; a scattering of sheep is always the result. That is what the Enemy desires.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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