NO Reformation at 500

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Jocose
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NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jocose » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:08 am

There was no "Reformation" in the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Christianity : Proclaiming the Truth since 33AD

Come and see.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:51 am

My Lords, Ladies, and Gentlemen:

For your consideration, delectation, and general wonderment, the management presents the specimen you see before you, Wu. He has been granted singular graces, to wit:

1.) He does not know that he is a large Chinese man;

2.) He remembereth not that he was once a rabid Protestant;

3.) He thinketh he cometh in Peathe, yet soweth Division and incendiary Posting;

4.) He acknoweldegeth not that thchithming within the Orthodox hath been of frequent and ongoing occurence.

Line up and have a gawp. You may pet him gently with two fingers. Management not responsible in vase of loss of fingers.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Cleon » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:54 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:51 am
My Lords, Ladies, and Gentlemen:

For your consideration, delectation, and general wonderment, the management presents the specimen you see before you, Wu. He has been granted singular graces, to wit:

1.) He does not know that he is a large Chinese man;

2.) He remembereth not that he was once a rabid Protestant;

3.) He thinketh he cometh in Peathe, yet soweth Division and incendiary Posting;

4.) He acknoweldegeth not that thchithming within the Orthodox hath been of frequent and ongoing occurence.

Line up and have a gawp. You may pet him gently with two fingers. Management not responsible in vase of loss of fingers.
Did your keyboard break?
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by DepartedLight » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:18 am

Jocose wrote: There was no "Reformation" in [of] the Orthodox Church.
Yes, Protestantism is a Western Rite issue, that is true.

The Greek Church spoke to Luther to get him to come there.

Nothin' doing.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:23 am

Cleon wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:54 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:51 am
My Lords, Ladies, and Gentlemen:

For your consideration, delectation, and general wonderment, the management presents the specimen you see before you, Wu. He has been granted singular graces, to wit:

1.) He does not know that he is a large Chinese man;

2.) He remembereth not that he was once a rabid Protestant;

3.) He thinketh he cometh in Peathe, yet soweth Division and incendiary Posting;

4.) He acknoweldegeth not that thchithming within the Orthodox hath been of frequent and ongoing occurence.

Line up and have a gawp. You may pet him gently with two fingers. Management not responsible in vase of loss of fingers.
Did your keyboard break?
Potthibly.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:43 am

DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:18 am
Jocose wrote: There was no "Reformation" in [of] the Orthodox Church.
Yes, Protestantism is a Western Rite issue, that is true.

The Greek Church spoke to Luther to get him to come there.

Nothin' doing.
Luther's pride prevented him from submitting to any Apostolic authority, East or West. He permitted no one to correct him.

In general, I see the Protest as just another Iconoclasm Heresy, 1000 years later, sweeping the countryside in a crusade to wreck our churches and destroy the holy images.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Skip » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 am

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:43 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:18 am
Jocose wrote: There was no "Reformation" in [of] the Orthodox Church.
Yes, Protestantism is a Western Rite issue, that is true.

The Greek Church spoke to Luther to get him to come there.

Nothin' doing.
Luther's pride prevented him from submitting to any Apostolic authority, East or West. He permitted no one to correct him.

In general, I see the Protest as just another Iconoclasm Heresy, 1000 years later, sweeping the countryside in a crusade to wreck our churches and destroy the holy images.
I just zederated my own comment before I got up a full head of steam. I'm done wasting my time.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:04 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:43 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:18 am
Jocose wrote: There was no "Reformation" in [of] the Orthodox Church.
Yes, Protestantism is a Western Rite issue, that is true.

The Greek Church spoke to Luther to get him to come there.

Nothin' doing.
Luther's pride prevented him from submitting to any Apostolic authority, East or West. He permitted no one to correct him.

In general, I see the Protest as just another Iconoclasm Heresy, 1000 years later, sweeping the countryside in a crusade to wreck our churches and destroy the holy images.
Part of me is driven crazy that you won't read Luther or an objective biography of him... but the other part of me thinks, "well if he learns then we won't get little gems like this anymore" :lol:

So Luther is in hiding, see, because the Pope want's him crispy and all, and during his absence in Wittenberg, a zealous fellow by the name of Andreas Bodenstein von Karlstadt gathered round him some folks with visions of broken stained glass dancing in their heads and they started Iconoclatastapalooza 1522(TM). Now what did Luther do when word came round to him that statues were falling? You guessed it. He sat back with finger tips together cackling like Mr. Burns as lightning flashed ominously behind him.

Not really. He actually came out of hiding. Risked his fat neck, not to poke the Pope in the eye, but in order to put an end to wrecking your churches. And he disassociated himself with any other window smasher from there on out.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:50 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:04 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:43 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:18 am
Jocose wrote: There was no "Reformation" in [of] the Orthodox Church.
Yes, Protestantism is a Western Rite issue, that is true.

The Greek Church spoke to Luther to get him to come there.

Nothin' doing.
Luther's pride prevented him from submitting to any Apostolic authority, East or West. He permitted no one to correct him.

In general, I see the Protest as just another Iconoclasm Heresy, 1000 years later, sweeping the countryside in a crusade to wreck our churches and destroy the holy images.
Part of me is driven crazy that you won't read Luther or an objective biography of him... but the other part of me thinks, "well if he learns then we won't get little gems like this anymore" :lol:

So Luther is in hiding, see, because the Pope want's him crispy and all, and during his absence in Wittenberg, a zealous fellow by the name of Andreas Bodenstein von Karlstadt gathered round him some folks with visions of broken stained glass dancing in their heads and they started Iconoclatastapalooza 1522(TM). Now what did Luther do when word came round to him that statues were falling? You guessed it. He sat back with finger tips together cackling like Mr. Burns as lightning flashed ominously behind him.

Not really. He actually came out of hiding. Risked his fat neck, not to poke the Pope in the eye, but in order to put an end to wrecking your churches. And he disassociated himself with any other window smasher from there on out.
I know all of that. The Reformation Luther quickly left Luther behind, and would have gone on to destroy Christendom even if Luther had repented and returned to the Church.

Once the kings realized that they could silence the Church, walk away with the Church's material wealth, and buy the support of the local nobility with the Church's land.... Christendom was over.

The Kristallnacht swept northern Europe; martyring priests and nuns, destroying churches, and despoiling monasteries; leaving the poor & widows & orphans with no social security and the people with no voice to stand against the nobility.

The poor gathered into slums in the cities, setting the stage for the French Revolution and the rapacious greed of Scrooge's tenements and sweat shops. Secular salvation was offered in the forms of socialism, communism, and Nazism as people turned to anyone who offered to care for them as the Church of the Middle Ages did.

Luther had no idea what he had started. He was powerless to stop it.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:58 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:50 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:04 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:43 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:18 am
Jocose wrote: There was no "Reformation" in [of] the Orthodox Church.
Yes, Protestantism is a Western Rite issue, that is true.

The Greek Church spoke to Luther to get him to come there.

Nothin' doing.
Luther's pride prevented him from submitting to any Apostolic authority, East or West. He permitted no one to correct him.

In general, I see the Protest as just another Iconoclasm Heresy, 1000 years later, sweeping the countryside in a crusade to wreck our churches and destroy the holy images.
Part of me is driven crazy that you won't read Luther or an objective biography of him... but the other part of me thinks, "well if he learns then we won't get little gems like this anymore" :lol:

So Luther is in hiding, see, because the Pope want's him crispy and all, and during his absence in Wittenberg, a zealous fellow by the name of Andreas Bodenstein von Karlstadt gathered round him some folks with visions of broken stained glass dancing in their heads and they started Iconoclatastapalooza 1522(TM). Now what did Luther do when word came round to him that statues were falling? You guessed it. He sat back with finger tips together cackling like Mr. Burns as lightning flashed ominously behind him.

Not really. He actually came out of hiding. Risked his fat neck, not to poke the Pope in the eye, but in order to put an end to wrecking your churches. And he disassociated himself with any other window smasher from there on out.
I know all of that. The Reformation Luther quickly left Luther behind, and would have gone on to destroy Christendom even if Luther had repented and returned to the Church.

Once the kings realized that they could silence the Church, walk away with the Church's material wealth, and buy the support of the local nobility with the Church's land.... Christendom was over.

The Kristallnacht swept northern Europe; martyring priests and nuns, destroying churches, and despoiling monasteries; leaving the poor & widows & orphans with no social security and the people with no voice to stand against the nobility.

The poor gathered into slums in the cities, setting the stage for the French Revolution and the rapacious greed of Scrooge's tenements and sweat shops. Secular salvation was offered in the forms of socialism, communism, and Nazism as people turned to anyone who offered to care for them as the Church of the Middle Ages did.

Luther had no idea what he had started. He was powerless to stop it.
So all the bad stuff happened after Luther? You're saying that all Luther did was leave open the door and hell, heresy, and all sorts of mayhem couldn't help but creep in?

Sounds like what the Filial Correction folks are saying about the Pope... :twisted:
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by infidel » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:12 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:58 pm
You're saying that all Luther did was leave open the door and hell, heresy, and all sorts of mayhem couldn't help but creep in?
Creep in? Luther opened a floodgate behind which all manner of hell, heresy, and mayhem had probably been building for a long time.

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:26 pm

infidel wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:12 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:58 pm
You're saying that all Luther did was leave open the door and hell, heresy, and all sorts of mayhem couldn't help but creep in?
Creep in? Luther opened a floodgate behind which all manner of hell, heresy, and mayhem had probably been building for a long time.

Münster Rebellion
Bereft of any authority that could correct a man, any zealot with a Bible verse and some political backing could gather a band of followers -- which became a mob or an army to do his bidding.

Cromwell was the biggest of the religious despots. Other mobs were city-wide, as with Munster.

St. Francis de Sales invented the Bible tract. He would leave leaflets of Scriptural proofs under the doors in villages around Geneva (one generation after Calvin). At first, he slept in trees to hide from the pitchforks of zealous calvinists. But eventually, peacefully, he won thousands of souls back to the Church and was made bishop of Geneva.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by FredS » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:48 am

Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:26 pm
. . .Bereft of any authority that could correct a man, any zealot with a Bible verse and some political backing could gather a band of followers -- which became a mob or an army to do his bidding. . .
While a Catholic might reckon a man in Rome has the authority to correct, a Protestant looks just a bit higher and says that God Himself is the authority. You too can know your Creator and Corrector Del. Pray to Him. Set aside your Saints and Popes and try going directly to the Father. He's there. Waiting for you.

Notice that I've not mentioned all the un-corrected, sex-offending Priests and other scandals in explaining how erroneousd it is to rely on the Pope to insure the church is run 'correctly'. Oh wait, yes I did.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am

FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:48 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:26 pm
. . .Bereft of any authority that could correct a man, any zealot with a Bible verse and some political backing could gather a band of followers -- which became a mob or an army to do his bidding. . .
While a Catholic might reckon a man in Rome has the authority to correct, a Protestant looks just a bit higher and says that God Himself is the authority. You too can know your Creator and Corrector Del. Pray to Him. Set aside your Saints and Popes and try going directly to the Father. He's there. Waiting for you.

Notice that I've not mentioned all the un-corrected, sex-offending Priests and other scandals in explaining how erroneousd it is to rely on the Pope to insure the church is run 'correctly'. Oh wait, yes I did.
Couple things:

Second: Don't confuse the teachings with the sinners. Simony was wrong in the Middle Ages, and everyone knew it. Some people still did it.

Homosexual pederasty was wrong in the 70's & 80's, and everyone knew it. Some people still did it.

The Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error. The Holy Spirit does not prevent us from sinning, if our will is bent toward sin.

First: Sending mobs and armies to wreck churches, destroy sacred art, and kill priests was wrong in the Reformation, but the defiant religious leaders taught that this holy war was holy work. They did not have the protection of the Holy Spirit by direct inspiration.

The basic teachings of our faith remain disputed under the system of the Reformation: Does Christ forgive our sins in baptism, so that we are truly reborn? Or is the water an outward symbol?

Does Jesus give Himself to us in the Eucharist? Or are the bread and wine merely symbols to help our remembrance?


I would believe in the "direct infusion of knowledge" by the Holy Spirit if all Protestant Christians shared the same faith.


What about the Apostolic teachings concerning Mary? Her role was as important as Adam & Eve and the trusting faith of Abraham, but Scripture only hints at this. How to know the truth?
- Is it sinful pride which causes modern Protestants to refuse even to ask God for guidance in their relationship with Mary? (like the indulgence sellers and the sex abusers)
- Or is the Reformed Theology so rigid in error that it cannot be corrected by the Holy Spirit? (refuting the ability to ask God directly for guidance)

Personally -- I wish that Protestants could enjoy true revelation directly from God. I hope that it is sin alone which prevents their relationship with Mary.... Because then they could repent, and know the Mother whom Jesus gave to us.

Meanwhile, everyone ignores me when I quote the Scriptures instructing us to turn to the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Tim 3:15)
Paul tells us to hold to all of the Apostolic teachings, both written and handed down by preaching. (2 Thess 2:15)
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
Meanwhile, everyone ignores me when I quote the Scriptures instructing us to turn to the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Tim 3:15)
And you ignore everyone when they tell you that they're not convinced that your church is the Church. Yet you continue to argue from that point as a First Principle. I wasn't joking: you are the antithesis of "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Were you to understand the rational foundations of those to whom you breathlessly blather, you'd realize that, in the absence of agreed First Principles, discussion will be fruitless. And we have a few years of threads to back up the veracity of that suggestion.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by FredS » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:00 am

Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
Meanwhile, everyone ignores me when I quote the Scriptures instructing us to turn to the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Tim 3:15)
And you ignore everyone when they tell you that they're not convinced that your church is the Church. Yet you continue to argue from that point as a First Principle. I wasn't joking: you are the antithesis of "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Were you to understand the rational foundations of those to whom you breathlessly blather, you'd realize that, in the absence of agreed First Principles, discussion will be fruitless. And we have a few years of threads to back up the veracity of that suggestion.
"And you ignore everyone when they tell you that they're not convinced that your church is the Church."

Del, print that line and tape it to your monitor.

The Reformers called for reforms for a reason. The Roman church was broken and needed to be reformed. Think on that word - reformed. If the church would not allow correction of the problems that had crept in then it needed to be re-formed.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by durangopipe » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:13 am

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."

Bears repeating.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:25 am

Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
Meanwhile, everyone ignores me when I quote the Scriptures instructing us to turn to the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Tim 3:15)
And you ignore everyone when they tell you that they're not convinced that your church is the Church. Yet you continue to argue from that point as a First Principle. I wasn't joking: you are the antithesis of "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Were you to understand the rational foundations of those to whom you breathlessly blather, you'd realize that, in the absence of agreed First Principles, discussion will be fruitless. And we have a few years of threads to back up the veracity of that suggestion.
We have a conflict of First Principles. I am not ignoring them.

The way to debate first principles is to show that the conclusions that follow from a principle are false or inconsistent or nonsensical.

I use Scripture to show that Jesus established a Church for our salvation. I point out, in many examples, that this Church continues to teach consistently the same thing that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to teach since 33 AD.

Meanwhile, the foundational principle of the Reformation is that the Holy Spirit had abandoned Christ's Church, and that the only true and reliable authority is the Church's Sacred Scripture. I point out that the Bible Christians are often in defiance of the most central of biblical revelations, such as "THIS IS MY BODY." I point out that the shattered and disunited state of Christians after the Reformation is a clear indication that this is not God's path for us.

I know from history that most people will not listen. Some will even react violently to anything that challenges their first principle. But a few do listen.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:34 am

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:25 am
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
Meanwhile, everyone ignores me when I quote the Scriptures instructing us to turn to the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Tim 3:15)
And you ignore everyone when they tell you that they're not convinced that your church is the Church. Yet you continue to argue from that point as a First Principle. I wasn't joking: you are the antithesis of "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Were you to understand the rational foundations of those to whom you breathlessly blather, you'd realize that, in the absence of agreed First Principles, discussion will be fruitless. And we have a few years of threads to back up the veracity of that suggestion.
We have a conflict of First Principles. I am not ignoring them.

The way to debate first principles is to show that the conclusions that follow from a principle are false or inconsistent or nonsensical.

I use Scripture to show that Jesus established a Church for our salvation. I point out, in many examples, that this Church continues to teach consistently the same thing that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to teach since 33 AD.

Meanwhile, the foundational principle of the Reformation is that the Holy Spirit had abandoned Christ's Church, and that the only true and reliable authority is the Church's Sacred Scripture. I point out that the Bible Christians are often in defiance of the most central of biblical revelations, such as "THIS IS MY BODY." I point out that the shattered and disunited state of Christians after the Reformation is a clear indication that this is not God's path for us.

I know from history that most people will not listen. Some will even react violently to anything that challenges their first principle. But a few do listen.
Del, the foundational principle of the Reformation was that the Roman church had abandoned the Holy Spirit. You can't even get that right.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by UncleBob » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:51 am

Might be time:
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